cincifbfan
Well-known member
Bingo. And it same goes for your student cheering section yelling "Bull $h!t" repeatedly after every penalty against your team. Get your students under control or don't allow them in.
Officiating, what is happening?
- Thread starter OldBaldGuyGaming
- Start date
cincifbfan
Well-known member
Every single game I go to I explain this to people. I also explain how there's no 5 yard contact/jam rule in high school every week.
I sure do miss officiating. So many great memories and meeting great people. I do recommend it for people that love the game. The pluses sure do outweigh the minuses. Some of my best friends are fellow officials and coaches
Bidenomics
Well-known member
Agreed but The shortage arose from the good old boys taking any and every game while up and coming officials were not worked so a lot of them left.
This is why you see such a disparity in years of service across the state. Way more 30-40 year officials than 8-12
I agree that in some associations there has not been enough effort at mentoring new officials and making sure they get their share of sub-varsity games.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
To say this doesn’t exist would be silly but to say it’s the reason for the shortage is absurd.
you completely ignore the low pay, long hours (when factoring in travel and arriving to site early), start up costs (class, equipment, association dues), and verbal abuse and social media awareness of physical violence (much rarer but happens and are aware of that possibility) all are incredibly more impactful than the small handful of officials are who good enough to advance but don’t.
Assignors work for conferences, you think they want to send garbage officials bc they’re friends? That might have been a thing pre cell phones and social media but certainly is not anymore.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
I've officiated in three states including Ohio and the good ol' boy network absolutely exists, to a certain extent, in each one. To act like it doesn't or that there aren't good officials who have been royally screwed over by it is just being disingenuous and holier-than-thou.
In Ohio it can largely be dependent on the conference. I remember when I got into men's college basketball officiating that a certain assigner in Central Ohio was still trying to tell me I wasn't good enough to work varsity games in his "prestigious" league (you assign high school basketball, dude
) because I "hadn't worked enough subvarsity." Meanwhile he was putting garbage "veteran" officials on some of his games every night under the guise of "my coaches trust these guys." I ended up not giving him any availability and when he asked why I reminded him of our conversation and told him to go kick rocks.
I will say that at the OHSAA level the state does a pretty good job of advancing the officials who deserve to advance in the postseason. I could quibble about a few choices every now and then but for the most part I think the officials working the later rounds have deserved it.
I agree that there are plenty of officials who just aren't very good, haven't made any effort to get better, and use the good ol' boy excuse to obfuscate their shortcomings and lack of effort to improve themselves. But let's stop pretending like there are not also plenty of officials who have done everything they are supposed to do and still get screwed out of the games they deserve.
In Ohio it can largely be dependent on the conference. I remember when I got into men's college basketball officiating that a certain assigner in Central Ohio was still trying to tell me I wasn't good enough to work varsity games in his "prestigious" league (you assign high school basketball, dude
) because I "hadn't worked enough subvarsity." Meanwhile he was putting garbage "veteran" officials on some of his games every night under the guise of "my coaches trust these guys." I ended up not giving him any availability and when he asked why I reminded him of our conversation and told him to go kick rocks.I will say that at the OHSAA level the state does a pretty good job of advancing the officials who deserve to advance in the postseason. I could quibble about a few choices every now and then but for the most part I think the officials working the later rounds have deserved it.
I agree that there are plenty of officials who just aren't very good, haven't made any effort to get better, and use the good ol' boy excuse to obfuscate their shortcomings and lack of effort to improve themselves. But let's stop pretending like there are not also plenty of officials who have done everything they are supposed to do and still get screwed out of the games they deserve.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
There are plenty of assigners who are still using their buddies who have no business being on the floor/field anymore. They get away with it because the coaches and ADs at their schools know and trust those officials and won't complain about them when they make mistakes.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
The thing most people ignore is that the majority of officials, in all sports, officiate bc they love it, they love the sport; and they want to stay in the game and help (games can’t be played without them). No one is getting rich off of officiating except professional sports and d1 ncaa basketball. That’s it.
If a person is doing hs football for cash they’d be better off doing youth games where they crank out eight 40 min games and pay cash on field.
point is, most officials do this bc they enjoy it. As soon as they’re being abused , you risk them losing that enjoyment and having to decide “is this worth spending so much time away from my own family/children?”
but yeah, the good ol boys club is why we have a shortage
If a person is doing hs football for cash they’d be better off doing youth games where they crank out eight 40 min games and pay cash on field.
point is, most officials do this bc they enjoy it. As soon as they’re being abused , you risk them losing that enjoyment and having to decide “is this worth spending so much time away from my own family/children?”
but yeah, the good ol boys club is why we have a shortage
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
I didn’t say it doesn’t exist, I said it’s not the reason for a shortage.
the number of officials who are truly great and don’t get a chance is minimal compared to shortage number
zebrastripes
Well-known member
I don't think it's the reason for the shortage either, but I don't think the notion that it is a reason is that out of the question, either.
AllSports12
Moderator
Nobody on here is claiming politics do not exist. They exist in every profession and avocation. Payrolls around the country are littered with people who have no business working the jobs they work.
What's changed, and I know this from running a business for over 30 years, is the mindset of the generation(s) that came up behind us. I had countless interviews with college graduates that came in thinking they were managment level qualified right out of school. They expected salary, perks, and recognition for having that "onion skin" in their hand......
Same with officiating. The younger generations have the mindset that they should have coming in, what most (remember, there's politics involved) have already earned.
If you are good enough, you'll overcome the politics in anything you do.
Finally, there are plenty of assigners out there who have been advised by their schools (coaches & AD's) that "we don't want to see __________ or _________'s crew work our games anymore." Not a single assigner who has been advised as such has been given a suggested replacement for said crew(s). In fact, when presented with a list of available replacements to work their conference, the answer given by the schools has been, "never mind, let's keep it as it is."
What's changed, and I know this from running a business for over 30 years, is the mindset of the generation(s) that came up behind us. I had countless interviews with college graduates that came in thinking they were managment level qualified right out of school. They expected salary, perks, and recognition for having that "onion skin" in their hand......
Same with officiating. The younger generations have the mindset that they should have coming in, what most (remember, there's politics involved) have already earned.
If you are good enough, you'll overcome the politics in anything you do.
Finally, there are plenty of assigners out there who have been advised by their schools (coaches & AD's) that "we don't want to see __________ or _________'s crew work our games anymore." Not a single assigner who has been advised as such has been given a suggested replacement for said crew(s). In fact, when presented with a list of available replacements to work their conference, the answer given by the schools has been, "never mind, let's keep it as it is."
Last edited:
Had the same when I retired from Basketball except it was what crew do you want to work with. I said I dont care the game but it will be me and these other two and it was amazing.
They will continue it the next game or event, and there is no system to track this, especially when the next event might be a JV game on the road. The visiting school will laugh when you say Johnny's Dad isnt allowed.
I worked a state game in year 7 of baseball, but it took me 21 years in basketball.
It had to be earned.
I hear alot today from younger guys and gals "why is so and so getting another regional game and I am not?" and an hour later of conversation they finally get it.
Officiating has politics like anything else, but in almost 30 years from little kids to semi-pro of it I can say it is closer to a meritocracy than a non-official thinks.
I agree fully. Many assigners who have this attitude are poor officials themselves. They forget who they work for...I've officiated in three states including Ohio and the good ol' boy network absolutely exists, to a certain extent, in each one. To act like it doesn't or that there aren't good officials who have been royally screwed over by it is just being disingenuous and holier-than-thou.
In Ohio it can largely be dependent on the conference. I remember when I got into men's college basketball officiating that a certain assigner in Central Ohio was still trying to tell me I wasn't good enough to work varsity games in his "prestigious" league (you assign high school basketball, dude
I will say that at the OHSAA level the state does a pretty good job of advancing the officials who deserve to advance in the postseason. I could quibble about a few choices every now and then but for the most part I think the officials working the later rounds have deserved it.
I agree that there are plenty of officials who just aren't very good, haven't made any effort to get better, and use the good ol' boy excuse to obfuscate their shortcomings and lack of effort to improve themselves. But let's stop pretending like there are not also plenty of officials who have done everything they are supposed to do and still get screwed out of the games they deserve.
As to post-season, when the DoD model came out the people working these games are by far the best out there.
AllSports12
Moderator
And even now, there are still are people who get assignments due to politics.
I'd argue it is minimal compared to the pre DoD model and pre nonconsecutive policy where certain people worked 20 states in a row because they were boys with the AC in charge...
Doublehelix
Well-known member
Finally, an honest conversation from a ref.I've officiated in three states including Ohio and the good ol' boy network absolutely exists, to a certain extent, in each one. To act like it doesn't or that there aren't good officials who have been royally screwed over by it is just being disingenuous and holier-than-thou.
In Ohio it can largely be dependent on the conference. I remember when I got into men's college basketball officiating that a certain assigner in Central Ohio was still trying to tell me I wasn't good enough to work varsity games in his "prestigious" league (you assign high school basketball, dude
I will say that at the OHSAA level the state does a pretty good job of advancing the officials who deserve to advance in the postseason. I could quibble about a few choices every now and then but for the most part I think the officials working the later rounds have deserved it.
I agree that there are plenty of officials who just aren't very good, haven't made any effort to get better, and use the good ol' boy excuse to obfuscate their shortcomings and lack of effort to improve themselves. But let's stop pretending like there are not also plenty of officials who have done everything they are supposed to do and still get screwed out of the games they deserve.
Politics trumping performance has become a calling card in alot of aspects of HS sports, with ref selection and assigners being in bed with coaches and not wanting to piss them off.
Doublehelix
Well-known member
And to add to the conversation - I've thought of becoming a basketball ref numerous times. I've talked to guys who were begged to go through the process and become certified/licensed. Most of them say "it was all BS, I still don't get games" - the level of the good ole boys network is still thick and deep. They are their own worst enemy at times.
Gosh, I feel so appreciated now.
Good afternoon XXX XXXX, (Actually it's 9:30 am)
For the Ohio High School Athletic Association and the student-athletes of Ohio, we want to thank you for your dedication to the profession of «Sport» officiating. Please know the hours of studying, the commitment to physical fitness and time spent away from family do not go unnoticed. We know that this job can be challenging at times and fans can be unruly. Just know that without you and your service, games would not be played. Please continue doing what you are doing and know that you are truly valued.
Sincerely,
OHSAA Staff and Member Schools
Good afternoon XXX XXXX, (Actually it's 9:30 am)
For the Ohio High School Athletic Association and the student-athletes of Ohio, we want to thank you for your dedication to the profession of «Sport» officiating. Please know the hours of studying, the commitment to physical fitness and time spent away from family do not go unnoticed. We know that this job can be challenging at times and fans can be unruly. Just know that without you and your service, games would not be played. Please continue doing what you are doing and know that you are truly valued.
Sincerely,
OHSAA Staff and Member Schools
BobBBaulzack
Well-known member
Bidenomics
Well-known member
Actually it’s because they’ve struggled to cover games this year and there are hundreds more officials leaving next year. Good luck covering all games on Fridays with even average officials.
AllSports12
Moderator
What an embarrassment
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
I just find it hard to believe that with the shortage of officials, many assignors have the luxury of "good ol' boys club" assigning. I guess if you need X number of games covered and you have Y number of "good ol boys", you can make it work, but you're putting the cart ahead of the horse...
Also, back to the point about officials feeling deserving and "passed over"...again, while I am sure this does happen, not everything is about pure skill.
I have an umpire friend in college baseball, he's my best friend, wish him all the best, but he is ahead of me in terms of post-season levels, even though we have been in NCAA baseball for the same length of time. I also taught him almost everything he knows, I lead rule study sessions, I make rules quizzes, I send videos of plays, and I taught him 3-man in my living room. But he's ahead of me b/c he has more availability than I do. He can go almost anywhere at any time, an assignor needs a guy last minute and he is open? He will go. I have to check with my wife and job because I have a little one at home and work an hour away from home and can't just leave on a dime all the time. So he stands out more than me to an assignor...when they need a guy to recommend, his name comes to mind. And don't get me wrong, he's a good umpire, he has put in the time and commitment and goes to camps, but my point is, I could easily gripe about how I am better, I deserve it more b/c without my help he wouldn't be where he is, but the truth is, I also get it.
Most assignors don't know us on a personal level. If they run a report, my friend did more games, my friend has a bigger travel limit in terms of miles, my friend helped them out more than I did when their jobs became more difficult. So in terms of pure skill, pure rules knowledge, maybe I am ahead of him, but in terms of the "other stuff", he has me and it isn't close.
So I wish him the best, keep my head down, and treat every game, whether it is D1 or JUCO, like it's the most important game in the world (b/c to those kids on that day, it might be), and at some point I will get my shot.
I think that is a mentality many don't have anymore, since it keeps coming up here by so many people about themselves or others they know.
Also, back to the point about officials feeling deserving and "passed over"...again, while I am sure this does happen, not everything is about pure skill.
I have an umpire friend in college baseball, he's my best friend, wish him all the best, but he is ahead of me in terms of post-season levels, even though we have been in NCAA baseball for the same length of time. I also taught him almost everything he knows, I lead rule study sessions, I make rules quizzes, I send videos of plays, and I taught him 3-man in my living room. But he's ahead of me b/c he has more availability than I do. He can go almost anywhere at any time, an assignor needs a guy last minute and he is open? He will go. I have to check with my wife and job because I have a little one at home and work an hour away from home and can't just leave on a dime all the time. So he stands out more than me to an assignor...when they need a guy to recommend, his name comes to mind. And don't get me wrong, he's a good umpire, he has put in the time and commitment and goes to camps, but my point is, I could easily gripe about how I am better, I deserve it more b/c without my help he wouldn't be where he is, but the truth is, I also get it.
Most assignors don't know us on a personal level. If they run a report, my friend did more games, my friend has a bigger travel limit in terms of miles, my friend helped them out more than I did when their jobs became more difficult. So in terms of pure skill, pure rules knowledge, maybe I am ahead of him, but in terms of the "other stuff", he has me and it isn't close.
So I wish him the best, keep my head down, and treat every game, whether it is D1 or JUCO, like it's the most important game in the world (b/c to those kids on that day, it might be), and at some point I will get my shot.
I think that is a mentality many don't have anymore, since it keeps coming up here by so many people about themselves or others they know.
PerceptiveDeception
Member
- Lack of oversight and accountability for the refs
- Low pay per game. $100 is a joke. Needs to be $200+
For HS I will drive up to 90 for some of the leagues I work. The mileage helps offset the tax man for the game 4 miles away.
NCAA is/was different since some pay travel.
Literally?