Northwestern vs SLC - Status

pied said:
I think you are correct, but on thing no DLS team has accomplished is being the "OBJECTIVE" #1 team in California.

Another accurate statement is that they are winless in every chance they had to prove objectively that they are CA's best.
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Sherlock

1) there is not 1 team who can ever objectively claim to be the best in any year and that includes any DLS team (or any SLC team as the division is split in 2)

2) DLS laid an egg in the game against Canyon, congrats to Canyon, a win would still not have PROVED anything, other than they beat Canyon on that specific day, other teams thought they were more deserving to play than either Canyon or DLS

you can gloat all you want on their loss

it is your right to do so
 
consumerman said:
Sherlock

1) there is not 1 team who can ever objectively claim to be the best in any year and that includes any DLS team (or any SLC team as the division is split in 2)

2) DLS laid an egg in the game against Canyon, congrats to Canyon, a win would still not have PROVED anything, other than they beat Canyon on that specific day, other teams thought they were more deserving to play than either Canyon or DLS

you can gloat all you want on their loss

it is your right to do so
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Sheesh. We all know that most of the stuff we talk about is opinion. That goes without saying (except in your case).

As for the gloating, it's been fun. :D :D
 
consumerman said:
Sherlock

1) there is not 1 team who can ever objectively claim to be the best in any year and that includes any DLS team (or any SLC team as the division is split in 2)

2) DLS laid an egg in the game against Canyon, congrats to Canyon, a win would still not have PROVED anything, other than they beat Canyon on that specific day, other teams thought they were more deserving to play than either Canyon or DLS

you can gloat all you want on their loss

it is your right to do so
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Then why the hang up w/SLC winning the D2 title instead of the D1?

Other than that, I agree. I don't gloat about that game. The things that stick out to me, were the Canyon coach's silly decision to keep trying to pass in the second half, when it was obvious to EVERYONE that the QB was rattled. The amazing RB for Canyon, and the fact that Lad chose not to run, in my opinion, his best RB at the end of the game.
 
pied said:
Then why the hang up w/SLC winning the D2 title instead of the D1?

Other than that, I agree. I don't gloat about that game. The things that stick out to me, were the Canyon coach's silly decision to keep trying to pass in the second half, when it was obvious to EVERYONE that the QB was rattled. The amazing RB for Canyon, and the fact that Lad chose not to run, in my opinion, his best RB at the end of the game.
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I vaguely remember some items

I taped the game as I was giving my wife a bday party

since they lost there was no keen desire to watch the game intently

I thought these things stood out to me (I have been watching DLS for over 20 years)

1) the first drive, DLS moved deep into Canyon country. They had a wrong pattern run on third and 5 (so I heard, it was not a first string receiver.. if you know how DLS sends in their plays, they alternate receivers every play). Even with 4th and 5, DLS had been known to go for it in big games (1998 Mater Dei, 4th and 6, screene pass for TD on first drive; 2001 vs, LB Poly,
4th and long from the 29, TD pass to Maurice Drew put them up 14-3). This time they went for a FG, it was blocked I think.

2) Canyon scored three TD in first half, two of the plays were great plays, the first TD on a tipped pass. More often this results in an INC or sometimes a pick, htis was a TD. Great play for Canyon. Another drive the QB is totally about to be sacked, but makes a great play, barely dodges the sack, stands up and throws a great TD pass.

so its 20-7 at half.

3) DLS scores to open the second half, misses the XP

Missed FG, Missed XP, this is not the DLS I know

4) the drive late in the game with the score 20-13 when they had a third and 1 on the Canyon 5, 99 times out of 100 this is a TD drive. They try a weak QB sneak on third and 1 and it gets stuffed. (In most instances a dive or option will get the first or even the TD). They try a quick pitch on 4th and 1, not an option pitch (their specialty). Canyon is all over it.

DLS gets deflated and Canyon scores the icing TD on the following drive

Canyon won and was the better team that day, despite the great perfomance by the DLS pass defense in the second half

it was not the typical DLS performance (as noted above)
 
pied said:
Then why the hang up w/SLC winning the D2 title instead of the D1?

Other than that, I agree. I don't gloat about that game. The things that stick out to me, were the Canyon coach's silly decision to keep trying to pass in the second half, when it was obvious to EVERYONE that the QB was rattled. The amazing RB for Canyon, and the fact that Lad chose not to run, in my opinion, his best RB at the end of the game.
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it is just an objective comment that SLC has never won the large school bracket until 2006
 
pied said:
True, except I would add yourself since you seem to have asked me about it. So we will make it two.

No one would like my poll anyway. To steal an idea from concha, I would prbably have few definitive "rankings", but several "groupings" of teams.
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Pied, I agree with the Groupee concept. I think beyond grouping teams in a stratus, it is wasted energy.
 
SLCDad said:
What's so ironic about this is that SLC played better schools in the 2004 and 2005 playoffs in 5A D2 than they did in 2006 in 5A D1.
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yes that is what subjective opinions have always said and may well be true

but objectively, they never won the large school until 2006 and that is objective
 
pied said:
As it is that DLS has played in one state championship game, and lost it.

Any statement that DLS was ever the best team in California is a SUBJECTIVE OPINION not and OBJECTIVE FACT.
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And that wasn't even a State Championship Game - it was a "Bowl" game. Not much different from the Herbie.
 
consumerman said:
yes that is what subjective opinions have always said and may well be true

but objectively, they never won the large school until 2006 and that is objective
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Your point?

You are the person saying Independence Charlotte has the best program in the country. Go a little deeper. Take a look at who THEY have played.
 
SLCDad said:
Your point?

You are the person saying Independence Charlotte has the best program in the country. Go a little deeper. Take a look at who THEY have played.
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no dont try dragging me into that garbage

SLC has been impressive

they have not beaten a quality out of state team

objectively, you can not say they are the best team in the country over the last 5 years they have a loss Independence doesnt

No SOS garbage PLEASE

(e.g/ SLC has a great SOS becuz they played the #52 team in the country who was only 10-4, but in circular reasoning, they deserve to be #52 because two of their losses were against #1 SLC)
 
consumerman said:
I4) the drive late in the game with the score 20-13 when they had a third and 1 on the Canyon 5, 99 times out of 100 this is a TD drive. They try a weak QB sneak on third and 1 and it gets stuffed. (In most instances a dive or option will get the first or even the TD). They try a quick pitch on 4th and 1, not an option pitch (their specialty). Canyon is all over it.
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That was one of the things that sticks out to me. Correct me if I ma wrong, but wasn't the guy who got the pitch not a starter?

To me, those were bad calls. Very very bad considering the situation.

I do not like pitching the ball 3-4 yards backwards in short yardage situations.
 
pied said:
That was one of the things that sticks out to me. Correct me if I ma wrong, but wasn't the guy who got the pitch not a starter?

To me, those were bad calls. Very very bad considering the situation.

I do not like pitching the ball 3-4 yards backwards in short yardage situations.
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they had three very good running backs

the FB (Maupin) did not run with the power and effectiveness against against Canyon that he did against say Mission Viejo

the HB was great but not a power runner

the thrid RB (Nastor) was a speedy quick guy (he had a KO return TD against Elder).. I did not like either the thrid down or 4th down calls, the third down was more crucial, they just tried a half---- QB sneak and were stuffed
 
consumerman said:
no dont try dragging me into that garbage

SLC has been impressive

they have not beaten a quality out of state team

objectively, you can not say they are the best team in the country over the last 5 years they have a loss Independence doesnt

No SOS garbage PLEASE
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No SOS "garbage"? Are you kidding?

That is EXACTLY what you need to look at. Are you suggesting that W-L is the ONLY factor?

If you don't look at SOS then there are lots of 1A and 2A and even 9-man teams that would be considered among the top teams in the nation.


If you look at SOS, Independence Charlotte has a schedule that is TWO TOUCHDOWNS PER GAME weaker than SLC's schedule. We all admit that the models aren't perfect, but two touchdowns is HUGE and is much greater than any flaw in the model.
 
I don't think there is anything in the formula which is biased to Texas teams. I think Massey and Freeman present their mathmatical models for public review. Honestly, I did not get a math degree, so it is above me. Maybe a doctorate in math could explain the bias. I do know the Massey model is used by the NCAA to determine the BCS championship series. I am sure the math departments at all 120+ D-1A schools have examined the logic and it is still one of the approved computer models.

The only thing I think you could argue is a team like SLC which plays 16 games may be more accurate or rates a stronger schedule than a team like DLS that plays only 13 in a normal year (I suspect 2007 will be a normal year). But logically if a team makes it to a 16th game, they have probably played a tougher schedule than one that plays 13. I don't think you will find many "pretenders" after the 2nd round of the Texas Playoffs (any classification, any division). Every state or section has "pretenders" in their playoff brackets. So it still takes 3 or 4 quality wins to win state in Texas. That will improve your strength of schedule.
 
Bordertown said:
I don't think there is anything in the formula which is biased to Texas teams. I think Massey and Freeman present their mathmatical models for public review. Honestly, I did not get a math degree, so it is above me. Maybe a doctorate in math could explain the bias. I do know the Massey model is used by the NCAA to determine the BCS championship series. I am sure the math departments at all 120+ D-1A schools have examined the logic and it is still one of the approved computer models.

The only thing I think you could argue is a team like SLC which plays 16 games may be more accurate or rates a stronger schedule than a team like DLS that plays only 13 in a normal year (I suspect 2007 will be a normal year). But logically if a team makes it to a 16th game, they have probably played a tougher schedule than one that plays 13. I don't think you will find many "pretenders" after the 2nd round of the Texas Playoffs (any classification, any division). Every state or section has "pretenders" in their playoff brackets. So it still takes 3 or 4 quality wins to win state in Texas. That will improve your strength of schedule.
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at one point 25 of the strongest 51 sos were supposedly from Texas

that is just ridiculous and in no way can be true\

examples (some of you get tired of me bringing them up over and over but the SOS is a constant trumpet from texas backers so I need to bring up the same faults) include a 10-4 team that is rated the 52nd best team in the country, largely on a sos and a 7-5 team that was outscored and beaten by a very weak team rated in the top 300 also mainly based on sos

it is my assertion that there are 300 teams in california in 2006 better than this 7-5 piece of garbage.
 
consumerman said:
at one point 25 of the strongest 51 sos were supposedly from Texas

that is just ridiculous and in no way can be true\

examples (some of you get tired of me bringing them up over and over but the SOS is a constant trumpet from texas backers so I need to bring up the same faults) include a 10-4 team that is rated the 52nd best team in the country, largely on a sos and a 7-5 team that was outscored and beaten by a very weak team rated in the top 300 also mainly based on sos.
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Your problem is that you ONLY look at the W-L record. Generally speaking what you is say is true in most cases, however, there are instances when VERY, VERY good teams have losses.

That 10-4 team you mention played a schedule that is tougher than ANY in California, Texas or Florida. Ohio is the ONLY state that has a couple of teams that played a harder average schedule (but that 10-4 team played more games by far). That 10-4 team had 2 losses against the #1 team in the country and 1 loss against the #5 team.

That is why the polls put them in the top 50. The computer models are right.
 
SLCDad said:
Your problem is that you ONLY look at the W-L record. Generally speaking what you is say is true in most cases, however, there are instances when VERY, VERY good teams have losses.

That 10-4 team you mention played a schedule that is tougher than ANY in California, Texas or Florida. Ohio is the ONLY state that has a couple of teams that played a harder average schedule (but that 10-4 team played more games by far). That 10-4 team had 2 losses against the #1 team in the country and 1 loss against the #5 team.

That is why the polls put them in the top 50. The computer models are right.
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this is the circular reasoning I am talking about

1)slc is #1 because of the tough schedule they play as evidenced by the games against the 52nd rated team in the country

2) that team, although a pedestrian 10-4, is actually a top 50 team because two of their losses against the #1 team

that is the very essence of circular reasoning

and it doesnt fool me
 
this so-called top 50 team, which you have used forever to tout SLC's tough schedule lost four games (FOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

two of those losses were by 56-7 and 33-7 scores, hardly impressive against anybody

they also lost to a team that finished 3-7 and at one point was 1-7, that is a loss which is unexplainable for a supposedly top 50 team


that is not a top 50 team

that is not a top 250 team

and with that slc sos which you tout falls like a house of cards

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that includes a 7-5 team THAT WAS OUTSCORED and somehow gets credited with a top 300 school

this team ALSO LOST to one of those 3-7 Texas powerhouses LMAO

again improving slc's so called strength of schedule

________________________

that is clear evidence why the sos formulas you use and quote are not valid
 
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Last I checked Evangel was an out of state school. Matter of fact, they are so good the Herbie was did not want them beating up an Ohio team. At the time they played SLC they had a signed contract to play in the 2007 Herbie. And the Herbie only invites quality teams like DLS.

Just kidding Ohio, but I am steamed at the Herbie promoter.
 
Bordertown said:
Last I checked Evangel was an out of state school. Matter of fact, they are so good the Herbie was did not want them beating up an Ohio team. At the time they played SLC they had a signed contract to play in the 2007 Herbie. And the Herbie only invites quality teams like DLS.

Just kidding Ohio, but I am steamed at the Herbie promoter.
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are u counting evangel as a quality opponent?

really?
 
You do include them often in your list of out of state games DLS has played? Question was Elder a "quality" opponent?

Evangel had the following get college scholarships:
Jeremy Little - New Mexico State
Derrick Williams - Bowling Green
Jamarr Thompson - Troy
Pat Chitman - Northwest Oklahoma University
Reicho Lynch - Northwest Oklahoma University

Prospects 2008 Rivals
Roderick Banks - WR
Zack Summage - LB
Quinn Giles - CB

I would say that is quality when you have at least 8 players that can play at the next level and 5 in prior senior class. They lost to Lufkin 24-14 and were blown out by SLC. Only two losses and were state champions (albiet in a lower league).
 
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SLCDad said:
Yeah, we know. YOU are right and the guys who do this stuff for a living are wrong.

If you say so. Sheesh.


Who is the one fooled here?
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a team with 4 LOSSES including a loss to a 3-7 team (at one point 1-7) is NOT a national top 50 team

and never will be
 
I did not find any college signees for DLS in 2007 on Rivals (I'm sure there may be a couple). Scout has a 4.60 CB to Weber State.

While I was looking at the 2007 graduating class Rivals had listed, I was wishing Texas High had played them. They had WR running 4.7 and cornerbacks and safeties running 4.65. I was envisioning these guys trying to stop the Texas High passing attack.

Was DLS's lack of team speed its undoing in the California Bowl?
 
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