Fox News: Minorities and the poor do not deserve $15/hr.

ProV1

Well-known member
And again, when revenue is not the issue, why cant they staff?
This was explained about 5 times in the thread already. Pick any variant you want. They generally say the same thing. I may suggest post # 199 as a good starting point. Maybe have somebody in your household read it to you if you are having trouble.
 

Qcity

Well-known member
Pretty wrong. Enhanced unemployment and stimulus are playing a role, but there are a multitude of factors that are impacting the labor gap. I deal with this everyday in my business and they include in no order:

1. Woman with kids re-entering at a slower pace because of child care. We are in the summer months and many available jobs do not justify the expense of child care. This will moderate when kids go back to school.
2. The gig economy. People electing to opt for more flexible jobs or ways of earning money like Grub Hub but more broadly an entire ecosystem if internet based businesses.
3. Location. Location. Location. The pandemic has changed peoples views about going into offices or facilities every day. Increasingly, people are asking if the job requires them to be in the office everyday. It is becoming a bigger and bigger deal killer because there are lot's of alternatives right now. That could change in the future but I don't think it will ever return to pre pandemic.

All of these things have significant impact on labor availability right now, especially for low paying traditional retail type jobs. To blame it on just unemployment benefits is just plain ignorant.

No one is just blaming it on unemployment benefits, although that is no doubt the final piece of the money giveaway that pushes most over the edge. Schools being shut down because teachers unions pressuring schools to remain closed is a factor. Increased child tax credits is a factor. Paying child tax credits to people who don't even have a tax liability is a factor. Paying unearned tax credits monthly is a factor. Permitting people to not pay their rent is a factor. Permitting people to not pay their student loans is a factor. Handing out $1,200 checks is a factor.

But little, if any of it, is the 'gig'. economy', which was already here before this mess got started. Frankly, these people running courier service to deliver food to lazy people is going to dry up pretty quickly for two reasons: the ridiculous expense to the restaurant (as they are now realizing), and the lack of workers to make the food to begin with that is to be delivered.
 

cjb56

Well-known member
I know, right? It must be so embarrassing to lower yourself to take a delivery job. Could you imagine someone having, or actually choosing to take a second job to make ends meet or earn some extra cash? And a menial food service job with the rest of the lower-class plebeians no less? Gross.
There are few jobs anyone should be ashamed to do, nor be shamed for doing them. I’ve been on every end of the spectrum, from toilet scrubbing, construction, concrete, factory work, landscaping, intense physical labor, forklift operator, agricultural work all the way to the upper strata of professional work. Though I knew I could do better for myself than many of the jobs I had at the time, I also knew it was up to me to credential myself to seek better opportunities. It took a good amount of time and effort, but I got there. Along the way, though, over those many years, I always did the very best I could at every job and never allowed anyone to make me feel inferior in some way.

The people that irk me are the folks who don’t have a job, can get jobs, but refuse to take the jobs because they feel they deserve better.
 

utsherman

Well-known member
In my opinion, in Ohio, $15 an hour is about where an entry level laborer should be at most industrial plants. Throughout my life, I have had just about every job imaginable, including my first job at Wendy's flipping burgers in the early 90's. I can't imagine an entry level fast food employee being worth $15 an hour, considering a good amount of those employees have little to no work experience overall. There might be positions within the fast food industry that are fully deserving of $15 an hour, but IMO, entry level employees are not.
Appreciate the reply. I have also had just about every job under the sun as well. I believe in the dignity of work regardless of job or position. I find it interesting to see where others fall on this topic. Sometimes the jobs that no one else will lower themselves to take are the most difficult. Again, not necessarily suggesting that they should earn more to start, but it's a worthwhile discussion to engage. I work with a lot of 'office types' now that likely still don't understand the importance of those who clean the bathroom stalls or edge the manicured lawns at the corporate office.
 

utsherman

Well-known member
There are few jobs anyone should be ashamed to do, nor be shamed for doing them. I’ve been on every end of the spectrum, from toilet scrubbing, construction, concrete, factory work, landscaping, intense physical labor, forklift operator, agricultural work all the way to the upper strata of professional work. Though I knew I could do better for myself than many of the jobs I had at the time, I also knew it was up to me to credential myself to seek better opportunities. It took a good amount of time and effort, but I got there. Along the way, though, over those many years, I always did the very best I could at every job and never allowed anyone to make me feel inferior in some way.

The people that irk me are the folks who don’t have a job, can get jobs, but refuse to take the jobs because they feel they deserve better.
Agree 100%. Your experience sounds very much like mine. Thanks for the thoughtful response. (y)
 

cjb56

Well-known member
Agree 100%. Your experience sounds very much like mine. Thanks for the thoughtful response. (y)
I think working your way up from the bottom, and having it take some serious time and effort to do it, is a great advantage. I’ve lived the experiences of far more people, walked in more shoes…so to speak, than the vast majority of my current professional peers who went from HS to college to professional school and landed very high paying jobs at a pretty young age, but have zero life experience or relatability to the general public.
 

frecriss

Well-known member
This was explained about 5 times in the thread already. Pick any variant you want. They generally say the same thing. I may suggest post # 199 as a good starting point. Maybe have somebody in your household read it to you if you are having trouble.
You didnt explain anything. Your stance over and over has been that revenue drives business. So, when revenue is strong and you still cant staff, what is the issue?
 

fish82

Well-known member
There are few jobs anyone should be ashamed to do, nor be shamed for doing them. I’ve been on every end of the spectrum, from toilet scrubbing, construction, concrete, factory work, landscaping, intense physical labor, forklift operator, agricultural work all the way to the upper strata of professional work. Though I knew I could do better for myself than many of the jobs I had at the time, I also knew it was up to me to credential myself to seek better opportunities. It took a good amount of time and effort, but I got there. Along the way, though, over those many years, I always did the very best I could at every job and never allowed anyone to make me feel inferior in some way.

The people that irk me are the folks who don’t have a job, can get jobs, but refuse to take the jobs because they feel they deserve better.

Well said. (y)
 

Raider6309

Well-known member
Don’t worry. As wages rise because of a labor shortage, sleepy Joe will let in cheap labor for the billionaires to keep it low
 

toledomansfield

Active member
there is a massive difference in lafers comments and gays comments. laffer is actually talking about everyone entering the workforce. he doesn't say "black people dont deserve 15/hr". his comment is people new to the workforce dont deserve $15/hr.

contrast that with gay's comment "if you drive a truck and display an American flag on it you want black people to leave the country"
 

NewOldBlood

Well-known member
Then tell that story. Dont say you have a ton of respect while at the same time try to diminish what teachers do with statements like “I work A LOT more than I ever did as a teacher” and “Had I not been a coach, the comparison wouldn’t even be worth talking about”

If you have experienced it and only did it for 6 years tell us why you switched careers.
Let's just say teaching wasn't for me and for personal reasons I moved on. I wasn't in any way trying to diminish what teachers do. I think they are vital in the lives of children and if it hadn't been for some of my teachers and coaches, I don't know if I would have made it. I was simply saying that with summers off and xmas/spring break, holidays etc, teachers have less of a time commitment to their job than the majority of other careers. My intent was not to be disrespectful of the profession. Bottom line, if I was not coaching, I was required to be at school from 7:05-2:45 each day. Obviously to be a good teacher, there were hours to put in beyond those requirements, but that was all I was contracted for, 7 hours and 40 minutes a day, 185 or so days a year. I personally never really felt like I was underpaid when I was teacher. To add to that, most teachers who have been in the profession for 10+ years with a master's degree (which the majority of teachers these days end up with) do pretty well for themselves.
 

ProV1

Well-known member
No one is just blaming it on unemployment benefits, although that is no doubt the final piece of the money giveaway that pushes most over the edge. Schools being shut down because teachers unions pressuring schools to remain closed is a factor. Increased child tax credits is a factor. Paying child tax credits to people who don't even have a tax liability is a factor. Paying unearned tax credits monthly is a factor. Permitting people to not pay their rent is a factor. Permitting people to not pay their student loans is a factor. Handing out $1,200 checks is a factor.

But little, if any of it, is the 'gig'. economy', which was already here before this mess got started. Frankly, these people running courier service to deliver food to lazy people is going to dry up pretty quickly for two reasons: the ridiculous expense to the restaurant (as they are now realizing), and the lack of workers to make the food to begin with that is to be delivered.
You are too focused on just the example of delivery service. There is an entire ecosystem of ways to make money today for moderately skilled people that do not involve an 8-10 hour shift at a facility for $10 an hour.
 

Hammerdrill

Well-known member
That qualifies as a double down. But out of respect I will take a stab at your questions and my simple answer is that bad teachers should not have their jobs if they can’t improve. That is the fault of the unions protecting them. 90% of jobs out there you get canned if you can’t produce. But you, just like most of the people on here and in the general public, paint a picture of teachers based on the 5% or less that do an awful job (just like with law enforcement). But what are new teachers supposed to do not join their union? Go work at a private school with lower pay and worse benefits? 95% of teachers get into that career with the best of intentions (just like cops) and yet all they hear is constant negativity about their job. No wonder the number of students pursuing education as a career has dropped by a third over the last decade and now cops are leaving the workforce in droves. To my original post it says a lot about where we are as a society.
Your post says nothing more than teachers are for some reason a protected class, and are beyond reproach. My wife wouldn’t want to teach any longer due to the rampant spread of toxic liberal idiology.
 

ProV1

Well-known member
You didnt explain anything. Your stance over and over has been that revenue drives business. So, when revenue is strong and you still cant staff, what is the issue?
I just told you. It's stated clearly in post #199. Customer demand is foundational to any successful business. Without it, there is no business. Cost structure and staffing to meet demand are business challenges. They can inhibit growth and impact profits but they rarely destroy a business like a lack of customers does. As such, our economy is growing at a rapid rate today with some businesses being challenged in meeting that demand because of staffing. This will moderate over time and it is not the economic killer that you so ineffectively argue.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
How many Americans do you think are getting 40K a year in welfare? Your straw man is complete BS. Pre pandemic, all these programs existed and we had a robust economy for at least 8 years. Enhanced unemployment and stimulus is temporary. Have those things slowed some people back to work? Yes. Especially woman with kids where the wage to childcare cost equation is a huge factor. As enhanced unemployment dissipates, those folks will re enter. One year ago, growth was underwater and unemployment was 10%. We are exponentially better off today. You must love to hear yourself complain.
Straw man? The Washington Post looked into the question to see if it was accurate that a single woman, with two dependents could recieve in excess of $35,000 per year? What did they find?

The number was actually $41,232, but of course this was before it became better off financially to be unemployed.

I have plenty of friends and relatives who sit home and collect their government money, not sure how many nationally do it, but of the people I know, it's a significant percentage like 3-5% .

I have one relative who is too lazy to even apply for government freebies. Then last month when he needed money for a tooth extraction he had no problem asking me to pay for it. I said go apply for Medicaid and get it covered that way, I'm paying taxes for people on Medicaid, makes it seem more worthwhile to actually know some of the people I'm helping out.
 

utsherman

Well-known member
I think working your way up from the bottom, and having it take some serious time and effort to do it, is a great advantage. I’ve lived the experiences of far more people, walked in more shoes…so to speak, than the vast majority of my current professional peers who went from HS to college to professional school and landed very high paying jobs at a pretty young age, but have zero life experience or relatability to the general public.
Agree here as well. I came from a super blue-collar family as well, and watched my parents struggle to make ends meet. They rarely complained, and seasonal unemployment was the norm during colder months for the old man - as he was a brick mason. It helped to inform my sense of work ethic from an early age, and understanding the importance of need vs. want. My college room/housemates also landed high-paying gigs right out of the gate as well - even though I saw them work hard for it. I wasn't as fortunate. I'm in a great place now, but the journey was interesting. Even though we're in a place to provide our kids with the advantages I didn't have, you can bet your that they'll have to work for that car @ 16 - whether cleaning toilets, mowing lawns, or maybe they'll get lucky writing code (given the current environment). Either way, it won't be handed to them. 🤣
 

y2h

Well-known member
Pretty wrong. Enhanced unemployment and stimulus are playing a role, but there are a multitude of factors that are impacting the labor gap. I deal with this everyday in my business and they include in no order:

1. Woman with kids re-entering at a slower pace because of child care. We are in the summer months and many available jobs do not justify the expense of child care. This will moderate when kids go back to school.
2. The gig economy. People electing to opt for more flexible jobs or ways of earning money like Grub Hub but more broadly an entire ecosystem if internet based businesses.
3. Location. Location. Location. The pandemic has changed peoples views about going into offices or facilities every day. Increasingly, people are asking if the job requires them to be in the office everyday. It is becoming a bigger and bigger deal killer because there are lot's of alternatives right now. That could change in the future but I don't think it will ever return to pre pandemic.

All of these things have significant impact on labor availability right now, especially for low paying traditional retail type jobs. To blame it on just unemployment benefits is just plain ignorant.
How are the women not reentering the workforce making up the lost wages from their previous employment?

No one is leaving a good job to drive around for Grubhub. It's a side job at best. If that is your sole income you arent doing well.

White collar workers will go back to the office. I'm sure there are still some people terrified of Covid and some slackers but the majority are going back. Productivity goes down sitting in your PJs at home.
 

Tesoro

Well-known member
Not sure you get the context, but thanks anyway?
Um...yes, I really do get the context. Its a free world. If you own a business, you can offer what you want for pay. It's up the the employee to make the decision to work for that amount or not. I know..liberals are against freedom, unless it's to f anything you want, freedom to have a penis in a girls restroom, freedom for a man to run in a womens race, kill a child out of convenience etc et.
 

ProV1

Well-known member
Straw man? The Washington Post looked into the question to see if it was accurate that a single woman, with two dependents could recieve in excess of $35,000 per year? What did they find?

The number was actually $41,232, but of course this was before it became better off financially to be unemployed.

I have plenty of friends and relatives who sit home and collect their government money, not sure how many nationally do it, but of the people I know, it's a significant percentage like 3-5% .

I have one relative who is too lazy to even apply for government freebies. Then last month when he needed money for a tooth extraction he had no problem asking me to pay for it. I said go apply for Medicaid and get it covered that way, I'm paying taxes for people on Medicaid, makes it seem more worthwhile to actually know some of the people I'm helping out.
I did not argue that if a person was eligible and took advantage of every social program offered, that it would approach 40K. I’m not sure but will take you word for it. What I said is that it is a straw man because the reality of what you describe in a tiny minority of what welfare recipients actually receive. You argument is based on an extreme and not what is the practical reality.
 

ProV1

Well-known member
How are the women not reentering the workforce making up the lost wages from their previous employment?

No one is leaving a good job to drive around for Grubhub. It's a side job at best. If that is your sole income you arent doing well.

White collar workers will go back to the office. I'm sure there are still some people terrified of Covid and some slackers but the majority are going back. Productivity goes down sitting in your PJs at home.
I’ll handle these one by one. First, lot’s of people are not making up for lost wages. They are living on one income and not two. Without child care expenses and with reduced spending from the pandemic, It is very possible for many people. Your question assumes everybody must replace the income. They do not.

Nobody is leaving a good job for Grub Hub. They are leaving sh*tty jobs for Grub Hub. People can easily net together a couple gigs and do equal or better than a $10 an hour job that requires you to be somewhere for 8-10 hours a day.

Some jobs will require back to office. Many will not. There are plenty of studies that show work from home is more productive than office. You can easily find them If interested.
 

utsherman

Well-known member
Um...yes, I really do get the context. Its a free world. If you own a business, you can offer what you want for pay. It's up the the employee to make the decision to work for that amount or not. I know..liberals are against freedom, unless it's to f anything you want, freedom to have a penis in a girls restroom, freedom for a man to run in a womens race, kill a child out of convenience etc et.
Of course a business can offer whatever they want for pay. That's not the point. I was asking the poster what work he believed was worthy of $15/hour based upon his previous comment. And guess what? He answered it without taking it personally or whining about freedom and penises, or whatever you're mad about right now. 🤷‍♂️
 

Tesoro

Well-known member
Of course a business can offer whatever they want for pay. That's not the point. I was asking the poster what work he believed was worthy of $15/hour based upon his previous comment. And guess what? He answered it without taking it personally or whining about freedom and penises, or whatever you're mad about right now. 🤷‍♂️
I can't believe he didn't blow the silly question off. $15.00 an hour in California is different than $15.00/hour in Ohio.
 

utsherman

Well-known member
I can't believe he didn't blow the silly question off. $15.00 an hour in California is different than $15.00/hour in Ohio.
So what's your point? Yes, we clearly know that cost of living varies from place to place. Welcome to Economics 101.
 

frecriss

Well-known member
I just told you. It's stated clearly in post #199. Customer demand is foundational to any successful business. Without it, there is no business. Cost structure and staffing to meet demand are business challenges. They can inhibit growth and impact profits but they rarely destroy a business like a lack of customers does. As such, our economy is growing at a rapid rate today with some businesses being challenged in meeting that demand because of staffing. This will moderate over time and it is not the economic killer that you so ineffectively argue.

It absolutely is an economic killer. You are oblivious.
 
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