Speaking just as a retired official who has officiated the State Duals for both the OHSAA and the Coaches Association, the Coaches present a MUCH MORE conducive format. 1) Both the officials had three matches to officiate, and the teams had three matches to wrestle. Travel a hundred miles to be one and done for some teams, or for most officials, referee once, assist once, and bop once. 2) I never minded assisting a match, but when the State decided to have officials bop, to me that was ludicrous (just silly).
Division I OHSWCA State Duals - discussion
- Thread starter bucksman
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Granted, not to mention the time and preparation for coaches, AND officials to make a long trek (possibly in climate) for minimal involvement.
I know they had four mats when I officiated the Div 1 State duals in Wadsworth before the OHSAA took over. Three rounds, 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th, 20 min. breaks from end of last match to the next start. Ran like a charm each year that I was there.
URBANDAWGPOUND
Active member
PBurg had one guy out I believe Chavez ?! That was it
TakedownFor2
Well-known member
D. Chavez, A. Denkins out
J. Takats and Ewen weren’t eligible for their current weight classes yet. Only Ewen wrestled in the dual. They also had backups at 215/285 although those outcomes likely the same.
Definitely not the most formidable lineup Perrysburg could have put out but that was what they had that weekend and it’s how it works sometimes.
TakedownFor2
Well-known member
J. Takats did not wrestle against Coffman. He did not make 138 til after new year
darthmalice
Well-known member
I feel you. The year Fairfield had to go against David Carr's Massillion Perry squad would have been nice if a second dual match. Travel multiple hours for one match isn't profitable for anyone.
Against Wadsworth, Perrysburg was w/o:
126 Diego Chavez, though that's not changing win/loss
132 Allenson Denkins, that is changing win/loss
138 Josh Takats, though that is not changing win/loss
Noah Ewen weighed in at 165 then bumped up to 175 and lost, at this point he is the starting 157, and that would have changed a win/loss
Hawker bumped up to 190, but is the normal 175 (something the team might have done anyway, given they have an extra kid around 157/165 and aren't good 190-285)
Against Coffman:
both teams had backups in at 126, though the winner of the match was what it would have been if it was the starters
Perrysburg had a backup 138, though that does not change win/loss
The 165 match was won by Coffman in the dual, but Perrysburg flipped that at the Ashland tournament.
I have not seen Diego Chavez in any results this season, though I think he is expected back.
126 Diego Chavez, though that's not changing win/loss
132 Allenson Denkins, that is changing win/loss
138 Josh Takats, though that is not changing win/loss
Noah Ewen weighed in at 165 then bumped up to 175 and lost, at this point he is the starting 157, and that would have changed a win/loss
Hawker bumped up to 190, but is the normal 175 (something the team might have done anyway, given they have an extra kid around 157/165 and aren't good 190-285)
Against Coffman:
both teams had backups in at 126, though the winner of the match was what it would have been if it was the starters
Perrysburg had a backup 138, though that does not change win/loss
The 165 match was won by Coffman in the dual, but Perrysburg flipped that at the Ashland tournament.
I have not seen Diego Chavez in any results this season, though I think he is expected back.
I was talking about the Perrysburg/Wadsworth dual. It's amazing that these early season duals effected the state dual seedings.
George S. Patton
Well-known member
Any lineups yet on Baumspage or any other state sites 
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What is the order of the criteria that you would suggest?
Milan edison24
New member
When and where is the state dual finals?
Everything is on baumspage.
Several people are on here complaining about seeding and format etc...I haven't seen one suggestion of a viable solution to make it better. Wadsworth wrestled Perrysburg opening weekend. Yes Perrysburg was without some starters but I was there that day and Wadsworth wrestled their tails off. Both teams knew coming in that they would be wrestling each other opening weekend and it could potentially affect their seeding for the State Duals. On another weekend, Perrysburg beat Coffman in what had to be an awesome dual. Now they get to run it back. Brecksville beat Wadsworth in their rivalry dual. They will most likely get to run it back again in the semis.
This was seeded how it should have been based on the DUAL results. It doesn't matter that Coffman finished ahead of Wads & Breck at the Ironman. That is an elite level tournament where your best guys can score a lot of points for you and put you towards the top. For example, not too long ago the Monroeville 4 finished very high at the Ironman because of the 4 horseman. No one would question the fact that they would get crushed in a dual format by any number of teams they finished ahead of. Since this is a dual event it should be seeded as such.
As far as when OHSAA ran the State Duals and it being a 1 and done format. Every other team format for OHSAA postseason is 1 and done. There are teams from all over the state that come in for the basketball/volleyball/younameit state tournament and only get 1 game and then have to go home. It is what it is. OHSWCA stepped up and has put together a great format and has tried to improve it the past 2 years of running it. Kuddos to them.
Good luck to all the competitors this weekend.
This was seeded how it should have been based on the DUAL results. It doesn't matter that Coffman finished ahead of Wads & Breck at the Ironman. That is an elite level tournament where your best guys can score a lot of points for you and put you towards the top. For example, not too long ago the Monroeville 4 finished very high at the Ironman because of the 4 horseman. No one would question the fact that they would get crushed in a dual format by any number of teams they finished ahead of. Since this is a dual event it should be seeded as such.
As far as when OHSAA ran the State Duals and it being a 1 and done format. Every other team format for OHSAA postseason is 1 and done. There are teams from all over the state that come in for the basketball/volleyball/younameit state tournament and only get 1 game and then have to go home. It is what it is. OHSWCA stepped up and has put together a great format and has tried to improve it the past 2 years of running it. Kuddos to them.
Good luck to all the competitors this weekend.
George S. Patton
Well-known member
And Chidy has Spoken !
TakedownFor2
Well-known member
Do not disagree with you... I'll add this though...
Selecting 1 data point from each team should not be the sole seeding criteria used. And thats how it was applied here. Which is ok. The fact of the matter is that matchups matter.
Data Points Used for Seeding
12/5 Wadsworth over Perrysburg
12/18 Perrysburg over Coffman
1/7 Brecksville over Wadsworth
So the assumption is Brecksville > Perrysburg and Coffman. Is that possible? Sure maybe, but there was no head to head dual matchup between Brecksville and Perrrysburg or Brecksville and Coffman. So you look at other data points.
Ironman Perrysburg ahead of Brecksville Wadsworth and Coffman.
Ashland Perrysburg ahead of Brecksville and Coffman.
At this point the seeding is what it is. The teams need to show up and wrestle and let it speak for itself.
GWF
Well-known member
Good post! I would point out some differences with the one and done scenario. Every sport is unique and should address the most optimal characteristics to promote it. 1) All sports require dedication, discipline, and sacrifice to be successful. Maintaining and making weight is unique to the sport of wrestling and should be a consideration with a team traveling a long distance and wrestlers receiving a forfeit for all their hard work when considering the one in done concept. In basketball and volleyball at least the (starters) competitors can all actually compete. 2) The State Duals maybe a team sport but like track and tennis competition is on the individual level. Even the State Tournament in March lost the one and done concept. 3) Football, basketball, volleyball, and baseball games usually don't have like events going on in the same proximity. With the State Duals it's very easy to have multiple contests going on at the same time and believe me paying officials has never been an issue, especially when one considers that the state paid officials to bop (a joke). There is really no reason (excuse) to have a one and done format for the State Duals. Just my opinion.
The data points you're using are individual tournaments not duals. Brecksville according to Boro's rankings are the 7th ranked team. But those rankings are for the individual tournament system. Brecksville has beaten who was in front of them in a dual format setting. You're comparing results from an individual tournament to dual results and trying to justify that for seeding. Doesn't work that way. Coffman may be the 2nd best team. But their loss to Perrysburg hurt them for the seeding for this event.
Also if we use your logic. Coffman ahead of Brecksville at Ironman but 2.5 weeks later Brecksville ahead of Coffman at Ashland. Does the more recent result supersede the Ironman result. Should Perrysburg be the #2 based on losing to Wadsworth in a dual but beating them the following week at Ironman. Brecksville finished ahead of Wadsworth at their conference tournament too. So that's another data point in their favor. Too many variables when you add in the individual tournament data points for a dual format.
Now if we're talking seeding for Sectionals that's a completely different story because that's an individual event.
TakedownFor2
Well-known member
Let me just say this... I agree with your logic that duals should supercede tournament...
However, we do not have head to head results from all teams. Brecksville beat 1 team in the field in a dual. This is where you look at other factors and take that into consideration.
LucMurphy134
Well-known member
With only 8 teams, the seeding doesn't really matter all that much ultimately. The team that wins it all will have to beat three very good teams and it makes little difference if you see them in the first round, the semis, or the finals. Good luck to everyone!
I believe people that are not happy with the seeding are really just looking at which team(s) have an opportunity for second/third place. To rectify that (make everyone happy, maybe), you would need full wrestle backs and true second - lol.
GWF
Well-known member
Chidy already gave a good explanation why the individual tournaments aren’t the best measuring stick for dual tournament seeding criteria. Perrysburg and Coffman could very well be the 2nd and 3rd best teams but they had head to head dual results that couldn’t be ignored. I hate the transitive property when applied to wrestling but it’s what they had. I don’t think there is much argument that any dual combination between Brecksville, Coffman, Perrysburg, and Wadsworth with full starting lineups would be extremely close. If Perrysburg or Coffman is the 2nd best team then they will meet St. Ed in the semis instead of the final and finish 3rd instead of 2nd. Maybe they can add a dual to determine true second and satisfy everyone’s ego ?
I can understand the significance of taking 2nd as our team finished Runner-up 5x and although it isn't the Gold trophy it's still something to be very proud of. As far as True 2nd, I've never been a fan of it unless it's to qualify for Nationals or to make the Senior national team where $ is involved.Chidy already gave a good explanation why the individual tournaments aren’t the best measuring stick for dual tournament seeding criteria. Perrysburg and Coffman could very well be the 2nd and 3rd best teams but they had head to head dual results that couldn’t be ignored. I hate the transitive property when applied to wrestling but it’s what they had. I don’t think there is much argument that any dual combination between Brecksville, Coffman, Perrysburg, and Wadsworth with full starting lineups would be extremely close. If Perrysburg or Coffman is the 2nd best team then they will meet St. Ed in the semis instead of the final and finish 3rd instead of 2nd. Maybe they can add a dual to determine true second and satisfy everyone’s ego ?
The 2nd-5th seeded teams are Super tough and if they wrestled 10 times you might get different outcomes each time. 6-8 I can't speak much on those teams but I do know that Marysville came to wrestle last year and took us out. Moeller has been a solid program in the past. Lebanon I'm not sure but they had to beat 2 teams to get there so they must have a solid lineup.
TakedownFor2
Well-known member
His explanation was valid yes. Although Monroeville was an anomaly... outside the norm. Most teams don't win state with 4 guys. Their point total would have been 3rd in D1 that year.Chidy already gave a good explanation why the individual tournaments aren’t the best measuring stick for dual tournament seeding criteria. Perrysburg and Coffman could very well be the 2nd and 3rd best teams but they had head to head dual results that couldn’t be ignored. I hate the transitive property when applied to wrestling but it’s what they had. I don’t think there is much argument that any dual combination between Brecksville, Coffman, Perrysburg, and Wadsworth with full starting lineups would be extremely close. If Perrysburg or Coffman is the 2nd best team then they will meet St. Ed in the semis instead of the final and finish 3rd instead of 2nd. Maybe they can add a dual to determine true second and satisfy everyone’s ego ?
Like I mentioned earlier, the seeds are what they are and it will all work itself out.
I can speak on Moeller and Lebanon a little. Moeller is pretty tough in the weight classes that they have. Their biggest issue is that they are missing 3 weights, so giving up 18 points off the bat. Lebanon is a tough team, but I'm not sure what happened at 138 against Springboro. They got an INJ FF win at that weight and likely would have given up 5-6 points there if it was Kleinberg who INJ FFed. If it was Kleinberg, that is a 11-12 point swing and it would have been Centerville and Springboro in the final. I'm not trying to take anything away from Lebanon - maybe he wasn't even at 138 (he could have been at 144). Lebanon upset Springboro a few years ago too in the preliminary rounds when Springboro was the one seed. They did it again this year with Centerville.
I am glad that Moeller and Lebanon did not get the 6 and 7, because it will be more interesting to see Moeller and Marysville dual, in my opinion.
One other add - LaSalle recently beat Moeller in a dual...
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