Caitlin Clark

14Red said:
Then I may start thinking like you guys, and I don't want that! :ROFLMAO:
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I remember when I had my first beer with my dad. He said, “Never value someone’s one opinion that won’t have a drink with you.” He knew what he was talking about
 
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60 minutes did a piece on WNBA. Clark was a major theme, but they didn't make it all about her. It was politically correct and delved into racism just a bit. No mention of her getting her ash beat this year. Fluff piece, but at least the league is getting major coverage. Clark is a classy person. The others interviewed showed class also.
Being White and straight might be an issue for some associated with the WNBA. But, the savior is here. Embrace the goose or kill it.
 
I enjoy wrestling said:
60 minutes did a piece on WNBA. Clark was a major theme, but they didn't make it all about her. It was politically correct and delved into racism just a bit. No mention of her getting her ash beat this year. Fluff piece, but at least the league is getting major coverage. Clark is a classy person. The others interviewed showed class also.
Being White and straight might be an issue for some associated with the WNBA. But, the savior is here. Embrace the goose or kill it.
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I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere. It's a major issue for the league if it wants to move forward and it's definitely polarizing. Some of the "veteran" players in the league almost act as if they liked the league better when there was little coverage and they made less. And it's so unique because we never dive into sexuality in men's team sports. Guys play ball, occasionally we get a player who may come out, but only a couple occasions it's been made into a story. Michael Sam in the NFL and there was a NBA player within the last 10 years. But it's a non story and I'm about 100% sure the leagues make it that way. For some reason for women's sports, it's always been a big deal. I know even back in the 70s and 80s both in HS and college, the female athletes always dealt with either the stigma or had teammates who are lesbian and generally there was a "look" to it. There's no doubt in my mind the lack of popularity in the WNBA is specifically due to the number of lesbian players.
Clark has been groomed by her people and never has missed a beat with interviews. She's always takes the high road and it's probalby why she's even still standing. All young stars get the "physical" treatment so I don't necessarily agree it's legitimate. Heck Michael Jordan was the NBA's golden child and he got the crap beat out of him by the Pistons and Knicks back in the day, and the NBA fully embraced that style of play. Jordan eventually overcame that.
My guess is for the WNBA, cooler and calmer heads will prevail and they'll figure out they need her big time. No my contention has always been can she deliver? I don't know that she will be able to rise to the level that her marketing has her at.
 
14Red said:
I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere. It's a major issue for the league if it wants to move forward and it's definitely polarizing. Some of the "veteran" players in the league almost act as if they liked the league better when there was little coverage and they made less. And it's so unique because we never dive into sexuality in men's team sports. Guys play ball, occasionally we get a player who may come out, but only a couple occasions it's been made into a story. Michael Sam in the NFL and there was a NBA player within the last 10 years. But it's a non story and I'm about 100% sure the leagues make it that way. For some reason for women's sports, it's always been a big deal. I know even back in the 70s and 80s both in HS and college, the female athletes always dealt with either the stigma or had teammates who are lesbian and generally there was a "look" to it. There's no doubt in my mind the lack of popularity in the WNBA is specifically due to the number of lesbian players.
Clark has been groomed by her people and never has missed a beat with interviews. She's always takes the high road and it's probalby why she's even still standing. All young stars get the "physical" treatment so I don't necessarily agree it's legitimate. Heck Michael Jordan was the NBA's golden child and he got the crap beat out of him by the Pistons and Knicks back in the day, and the NBA fully embraced that style of play. Jordan eventually overcame that.
My guess is for the WNBA, cooler and calmer heads will prevail and they'll figure out they need her big time. No my contention has always been can she deliver? I don't know that she will be able to rise to the level that her marketing has her at.
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Can she deliver is TBD. But, what a following she has. I think the league will adjust. She will have nemesis, as it should be. But, the league is exploding.
 
I enjoy wrestling said:
Can she deliver is TBD. But, what a following she has. I think the league will adjust. She will have nemesis, as it should be. But, the league is exploding.
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So the major issue going forward will be, if she's a good, solid WNBA player but can't lift a team to the contention of a title without alot of help, doe the following continue? And is does that following crumble like a house of cards if she's not a top WNBA player? Most of these fans are not WNBA fans, they are CC fans. On a different scale, it's the Tim Tebow scenario.
 
14Red said:
So the major issue going forward will be, if she's a good, solid WNBA player but can't lift a team to the contention of a title without alot of help, doe the following continue?
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Seriously? She had a phenomenal year. Look at the assist. I'll be rootn for her.
 
Wanna know how important Caitlin Clark is?

I was at a 6-man football game in the middle of Montana. Two older farmer/rancher type guys were standing by the bleachers talking. I was about 10 feet from them eating a burger.

They went on to segue to a 5 minute conversation about Caitlin Clark, and the WNBA. And it wasn't an in passing comment back and forth either. They were discussing that she lost in the first round. But that's because Connecticut was a better team and they shut her down.

So, in the most unlikeliest place i ever would have though, spoken by th eleast likely people I ever would've thought, the WNBA actually has cultural presence now to be discussed no different than someone talking about the MLB pennant race or the NFL draft. It just was another topic to bring up.

In all the years since the WNBA was formed, I have never heard two people talk about the league, teams, or players without derision or dismissive insults. And so far removed from where any team involved would be playing. So, that has to account for something.
 
14Red said:
So the major issue going forward will be, if she's a good, solid WNBA player but can't lift a team to the contention of a title without alot of help, doe the following continue? And is does that following crumble like a house of cards if she's not a top WNBA player? Most of these fans are not WNBA fans, they are CC fans. On a different scale, it's the Tim Tebow scenario.
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So long as she can pass and work her magic 30 ft from the basket people who are knowledgable fans of the game will tune in. I pay very little attention to NBA, almost none to WNBA but find myself watching highlights of Clark after every game. She is unique.
 
14Red said:
I think you need to go ask some Iowa / Indy Fever fans.

But I digress... Impactful yes, but alot, ALOT of that is due to marketing. She had a good season. Most WNBA players don't play much as rookies, the league is a very veteran league. So any "rookie" records and stats are misleading to a point. She played nearly every minute of every game, stats are going to come.

So let me ask you since you seem interested. As of now, is Clark closer to her ceiling, or is there room for improvement? I think there is some room for marginal improvement with experience, all players get better with that. But she's likely not going to get quicker, or more explosive, her ball handling is ok. My point is I think she's closer to her ceiling than people think. Now she's smart enough that she's turned herself from a scorer to a facilitator, and I see that more as her role moving forward.
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Somewhere I saw a chart where all NCAA players were placed on it by their factual numbers they produced. The gap between Clark and everyone else was an astounding thing to view. It would not surprise me one bit if she is close to her ceiling, but that still puts her above 99.9% of her peers. Who knows, she may just be getting started?
 
14Red said:
So the major issue going forward will be, if she's a good, solid WNBA player but can't lift a team to the contention of a title without alot of help, doe the following continue? And is does that following crumble like a house of cards if she's not a top WNBA player? Most of these fans are not WNBA fans, they are CC fans. On a different scale, it's the Tim Tebow scenario.
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Tell me any male NBA player who lifted a team to a title without a lot of help. Jordan was a great player but did not win until Pippen and Grant joined him. Magic had Kareem and Worthy. Bird had McHale and Parrish. Curry had Durant and Green. LeBron had Wade and Bosh, then Kyrie and Love.

Your golden boy Embiid - use the same standard for him. He isn't lifting anything. Are you saying he is not a top player?

CC is already a top player. She is far more impactful in her league than Tebow ever was in the NFL - not a fair comparison.
 
D4fan said:
Somewhere I saw a chart where all NCAA players were placed on it by their factual numbers they produced. The gap between Clark and everyone else was an astounding thing to view. It would not surprise me one bit if she is close to her ceiling, but that still puts her above 99.9% of her peers. Who knows, she may just be getting started?
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She may very well be. I think one thing is for certain, she's got that competitive fire like Bird, Jordan, Magic, LeBron and Kobe had. I usually let my eyeballs do the judging. And what I've seen from Clark is this. She's a very high bball IQ player, she can see the floor like few women do. She can shoot the 30 ft. shot, which is nice, but she shot the 3 ball overall at 34.4% (only 41% from 2 point shots) That's just ok and that's her calling card. I think it's difficult for her to create her own shot. Does she get alot of attention and help? Yes. But if she's going to become one of the league's top players like most hope, she's going to have to be able to get her own shots off. Many games this season, in crunch time she faded away. She can't "go get us a bucket". The Fever's go to player down the stretch many times was teammate Kelsey Mitchell.
With all due respect, she's not being compared to 99.9% of her peers. She's projected and expected to carry the league. I just fear the "marketing" of CC is going to overshoot the actual CC.
 
wolves82 said:
Tell me any male NBA player who lifted a team to a title without a lot of help. Jordan was a great player but did not win until Pippen and Grant joined him. Magic had Kareem and Worthy. Bird had McHale and Parrish. Curry had Durant and Green. LeBron had Wade and Bosh, then Kyrie and Love.

Your golden boy Embiid - use the same standard for him. He isn't lifting anything. Are you saying he is not a top player?

CC is already a top player. She is far more impactful in her league than Tebow ever was in the NFL - not a fair comparison.
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Again, apples and oranges. Typically in the WNBA, a 12 team league, your top players get to the playoffs and win series.

There are many, many, many, many, many more "better" male players in the NBA than the WNBA has women. That automatically makes it more difficult to win and makes teamwork so much more important.

Embiid's entire career has been about his health, or lack thereof. When he is healthy, as he proved in his MVP regular season, he's the best player in basketball, hands down. But we know he simply can't stay healthy an entire regular season, let alone 6 weeks of playoffs. Embiid can score in, out, post moves, mid range, even shoots 3s. You know what's ironic, CC shot the 3 ball at only 34.4% this season. Embiid, a center, at 7-1" shot it at 38.8% this past season???

You say impactful, but that's from a marketing and TV perspective. ESPN is married to the WNBA and dump alot of money and resources into it. Along with Clark, that's raised the level of the league - with eyeballs - not anything else.

I think she's got some room to develop, we'll all see together.
 
^^ Imagine being such a dolt that you start a post saying comparing the NBA and WNBA is "apples and oranges", and then a couple sentences later you compare Embiid and Clark's shooting percentage. LOL.
 
14Red said:
Embiid's entire career has been about his health, or lack thereof. When he is healthy, as he proved in his MVP regular season, he's the best player in basketball, hands down. But we know he simply can't stay healthy an entire regular season, let alone 6 weeks of playoffs. Embiid can score in, out, post moves, mid range, even shoots 3s.
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There is a big difference between "best player in basketball" and "14Reds favorite player".

He's a very skilled big man, and had a great season when he won the MVP. But he has never been "the best player in basketball, hands down". He is slow afoot and barely defends anyone. He gets by on his size and pure talent. He is lazy and lacks the grit to be a winner. He did not even block out / rebound in the Olympics.

Then there is the topic of his health, which you allude to. Embiid clearly does not work hard on his personal fitness and body, where guys like LeBron are maniacal about their fitness.

Embiid will never be the alpha on a championship team.
 
wolves82 said:
There is a big difference between "best player in basketball" and "14Reds favorite player".

He's a very skilled big man, and had a great season when he won the MVP. But he has never been "the best player in basketball, hands down". He is slow afoot and barely defends anyone. He gets by on his size and pure talent. He is lazy and lacks the grit to be a winner. He did not even block out / rebound in the Olympics.

Then there is the topic of his health, which you allude to. Embiid clearly does not work hard on his personal fitness and body, where guys like LeBron are maniacal about their fitness.

Embiid will never be the alpha on a championship team.
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Clearly you didn't read my post closely enough, I said "When healthy". It's just a moment in time, but when he's healthy, and he's has been in only short stretches, he's a dominate post up player, he's great on the mid range and he shoots the 3. He handled the ball well for a 7 footer and I think you miss his defensive game. He's rim protection. I can't think of any other big who can score regularly on him, even Joker although they've only matched up a few times.
LeBron is a physical freak. Pretty tough to compare him to other players. Joel had foot issues even back at Kansas, he was never going to be a full time guy.
 
wolves82 said:
^^ Imagine being such a dolt that you start a post saying comparing the NBA and WNBA is "apples and oranges", and then a couple sentences later you compare Embiid and Clark's shooting percentage. LOL.
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I was simply bringing up their shooting percentages, and BTW the WNBA uses a smaller ball. You do have to admit the irony in that statistic. Clark's calling card is the 3 point shot, and an NBA center who's weakest part of his game is the 3 ball shoots a better percentage. Well, then again mabye you can't see that.
 
I enjoy wrestling said:
I'd like to know everyone's thought. Was Clark treated fairly in the WNBA?
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She's in nearly every WNBA promotion, she was just named rookie of the year on like 66 or 67 voters. What do you mean by fair? She got knocked around a little but all new stars get that treatment. It will be interesting to see if the WNBA goes by way of the NBA where they protect their stars. I believe in only one or two games Clark shot an unusual amount of free throws. It's always been a "thing" in the NBA that the stars get preferential treatment. Foul calls or lack of them on the defensive end.
 
Getting revenue share in a league 50 million in debt for one season is a tough get. Those televising the games with the unexpected doubling (tripling?) of viewers seem to be the soul benefactor of the gift that gave.
 
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