Ask The Ump?

AllSports12

Moderator
Seems like some very experienced people on this board.

After 5 years back into umpiring, I have the opportunity to work some big HS games the next several weeks. Any advice? I will take the time to enjoy it, that's for sure.
Eliminate "big game" from your vocabulary. Talking like that will earn you a tag from your peers that will be hard to shed. Nobody wants to hear about it.

Every day, bust your hump, listen and learn.

That will go a long way for you.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Example: had a kid lick his fingers while on the rubber. Immediately called it, 2 of us said balk, 1 said ball in our meeting, coach said it was balk while on rubber, kid was advanced, no one argued even a little. Looked up the tile between games of DH, supposed to be a ball, never a balk. I’ll never miss that again.
Under NFHS rules, which is what we are talking about here, this is a balk.

Please do not insert NCAA rules into the conversation unless the original question specifically requests a ruling under that code.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Mr. A. For NFHS rules, on a dropped third strike is there a time the batter "gives himself up" and not allowed to run to first OTHER than taking his helmet off and/or entering the dugout?

I have seen umpires allow the batter run to first any time before entering the dugout/taking helmet off and some who call him out after he takes a prudent number of steps to the dugout....
Under NFHS rules no runner can be declared out for deliberately taking off his helmet. When this happens a team warning is issued to the Head Coach. Any further violation after this warning results in the offending player's ejection. He is not declared out and a substitute will be permitted to take his place on the base he occupied at that end of play.

Also, a batter runner is not afforded his ability to advance to first base until that batter enters the dugout or dead ball territory. If a batter who thinks he is retired is half way to the dugout when he realizes (hears the screams from his teammates, coaches, and fans) his mistake may advance towards first base. His established base path is from that starting point directly to first base.
 

Thavoice

Well-known member
Under NFHS rules no runner can be declared out for deliberately taking off his helmet. When this happens a team warning is issued to the Head Coach. Any further violation after this warning results in the offending player's ejection. He is not declared out and a substitute will be permitted to take his place on the base he occupied at that end of play.

Also, a batter runner is not afforded his ability to advance to first base until that batter enters the dugout or dead ball territory. If a batter who thinks he is retired is half way to the dugout when he realizes (hears the screams from his teammates, coaches, and fans) his mistake may advance towards first base. His established base path is from that starting point directly to first base.
Good copy.
Thanks.
So the batter taking his helmet off should not be declared that he gave himself up after a dropped third?

I was aware of taking it off did not constituted him being called out. Wasnt that a rule for a short time back in the day, of which I thought was stupid in the first place.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Love seeing the young kids get into umpiring. Our little leagues often have HS kids doing the games. Most of the coaches realize it and do not harp on them too much and the park director is always around for the games to ensure it runs smoothly.

I just hope the young kids get good mentoring.

JH football game at Urbana a couple years ago. A kid was shadowing the sideline official which I thought was cool. Later in the game he was allowing him to spot the ball, etc.
But then at the end of the game. Third and long, winning team has the ball. Run play, coach yells "holding, where's the flag". The adult umpire looks at the HC, throws the flag and says 'here is your flag".

and calls him for unsportsmanlike. Auto first down, seals the game. Now I was standing right there, heard and seen it all and personally thought it was HORRIBLE example for that young kid shadowing him!


but we better get back to topics or Mr. A will be mad at us so i will pose a question.
While in general, the action of the mentoring official is considered to be out of line, we do not know what transpired between that official and coach, or members of the staff prior to that point. There may have been warnings issued... we don't know....

This is why we don't discuss specifics situations like this one here. We don't have all the specifics. My experience in administering social media groups that involve officiating situations has shown me time and again that these things go off the rails. That's just something I'm not allowing on this thread.

As always, anyone is free to open a separate thread in the appropriate forum here on Yappi.

Thanks for understanding....

AS12
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Is there a signal in three-man mechanics for a possible "Push" or is that a verbal communication as it happens?

We also verbalize it when it happens.



Slide 1 - General Mechanics.

"Runners on 1st and 2nd or bases loaded, if no one goes out we have a push (S17). U1 comes in and pivots and takes the batter runner to 2nd if he goes. U3 has all other base runners at 2nd and third. Vocalize “Push” if U1 comes in."
 

Bugsy8875

Active member
We also verbalize it when it happens.



Slide 1 - General Mechanics.

"Runners on 1st and 2nd or bases loaded, if no one goes out we have a push (S17). U1 comes in and pivots and takes the batter runner to 2nd if he goes. U3 has all other base runners at 2nd and third. Vocalize “Push” if U1 comes in."
Thanks. I have had that printed out and have been making notes organizing scenarios.

It was mentioned the "Push" signal can vary. What is the one you have used? Assuming it would be part of the sequence of signals given by the plate umpire and given back by his partners.

If it does happen, maybe it's U1 that might trigger the call as he is coming in and then echoed by the rest of the crew?
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
In 3-man, usually the HPU signals to whoever is in the middle, and then middle man (usually U3) signals to corner umpire (usually U1)

However, HPU does not signal push, that is for the base umpires to know they are doing it.
 
If you are talking about HS, then yes, if the bullpen is in live ball territory.

if the bullpen is outside the playing field, I do not believe they have to have someone.

But, if as an umpire, I am asked this on the field, I’m always siding on the caution of safety, even if bullpen is outside the playing field.

How hard is it to put a helmet on?
Incorrect regarding live territory. He must have a glove and must be positioned between them and the batter to protect them from
a batted or thrown ball within the confines of the playing field.

A helmet is not required, but I would recommend it.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Incorrect regarding live territory. He must have a glove and must be positioned between them and the batter to protect them from
a batted or thrown ball within the confines of the playing field.

A helmet is not required, but I would recommend it.
People tend to try to morph the rule requiring a catcher to wear a legal mask/helmet combination when he crouches down to accept a throw into this situation and we end up with the myth that everyone needs a helmet in the bullpen.

Good catch on this as I didn't see it.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
Line drive up the middle hits the pitcher's leg and ricochets towards the second baseman. Is the second baseman still protected on a batted ball from runner interference?

Line drive up the middle hits the pitcher's glove and bounces out toward the second baseman. Is the second baseman still protected on a batted ball from runner interference?

Or does the defense lose protection going for the ball in either circumstance because it is no longer considered a batted ball and can now be called for obstruction?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Line drive up the middle hits the pitcher's leg and ricochets towards the second baseman. Is the second baseman still protected on a batted ball from runner interference?

Line drive up the middle hits the pitcher's glove and bounces out toward the second baseman. Is the second baseman still protected on a batted ball from runner interference?

Or does the defense lose protection going for the ball in either circumstance because it is no longer considered a batted ball and can now be called for obstruction?
Once the pitcher touches the ball, the runner is absolved from the ball hitting him (unless he intentionally contacts the ball) however, it does not absolve him from interfering with a fielder.

When two players are attempting to field a ball, only one gets protection. Who is protected is solely up to the umpire.
 

UMU92

Member
Runner at 3B... Pitcher is getting the sign... as pitcher is lifting his front foot up to get into the set position, the runner at 3B takes off for home... P immediately recognized it and threw home... balk?
 

bucksman

Moderator
Runner at 3B... Pitcher is getting the sign... as pitcher is lifting his front foot up to get into the set position, the runner at 3B takes off for home... P immediately recognized it and threw home... balk?
I'd have to see something visual (i.e. video) to be 100% sure -- especially since the pitcher's physical action being described seems a weird way to work into the set position. However, if the umpire judges that the pitcher did not come set before throwing home (i.e. attempts a pitch), that would be considered a balk.

Hope that provides an answer to the question.
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Runner at 3B... Pitcher is getting the sign... as pitcher is lifting his front foot up to get into the set position, the runner at 3B takes off for home... P immediately recognized it and threw home... balk?
A pitcher must come set before delivering a pitch, so based solely on your description, this is a balk. Did he disengage from the rubber?
 

UMU92

Member
I'd have to see something visual (i.e. video) to be 100% sure. However, if the umpire judges that the pitcher did not come set before throwing home (i.e. attempts a pitch), that would be considered a balk.

Hope that provides an answer to the question.
He didn’t come set and threw home as soon as he saw the runner taking off for home. Thanks
A pitcher must come set before delivering a pitch, so based solely on your description, this is a balk. Did he disengage from the rubber?
he did not disengage. The runner took off for home on first movement to get into the set position... the pitchers reaction was to get the ball home ASAP... he never stopped.
 

CedarBuck92

Well-known member
Runner on 3rd. Popup on 3rd baseline. Runner standing on the bag and 3rd baseman runs through him going after the ball. Is there any call on that?
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Runner on 3rd. Popup on 3rd baseline. Runner standing on the bag and 3rd baseman runs through him going after the ball. Is there any call on that?
I believe AS12 will have a different answer, but I struggle mightily with this situation.

I believe by rule you can get INT as it is the runners responsibility to avoid the fielder making a play on a batted ball, but I also know that if a runner ONLY does what he’s supposed to do, which is not get doubled up and is just standing on the bag, I could coach every fielder to get INT every single time a ball is hit by just running into a stationary runner.

Now, if the runner is RETURNING to the base, he should avoid the fielder, but if he is back at the bag and was just standing there, and F5 just runs into him, I’m not making that INT call.
 

Thavoice

Well-known member
How about umpire's being sent to the wrong location and delaying the game by half hour!
Saw that this evening
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
How about umpire's being sent to the wrong location and delaying the game by half hour!
Saw that this evening
Well, they report to where they’re told to. That isn’t their fault then likely...though in NCAA, we email coaches about a week out to confirm start times and location (and covid protocols and paperwork) but that was new to me.

I remember once I was told game started at 11am, showed up at 10:15, got dressed, cleaned my shoes, walked to field at 10:45, they were playing with a coach calling pitches from behind the rubber, game started at 10 apparently. <shrug>
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I believe AS12 will have a different answer, but I struggle mightily with this situation.

I believe by rule you can get INT as it is the runners responsibility to avoid the fielder making a play on a batted ball, but I also know that if a runner ONLY does what he’s supposed to do, which is not get doubled up and is just standing on the bag, I could coach every fielder to get INT every single time a ball is hit by just running into a stationary runner.

Now, if the runner is RETURNING to the base, he should avoid the fielder, but if he is back at the bag and was just standing there, and F5 just runs into him, I’m not making that INT call.
As we say, "this one is where you get to earn your game fee".

The rule tells us that the runner may not hinder, impede, or confuse the opponent making a play on a batted ball. We also cannot ignore the fact that the runner, if he vacates his position on the base, puts himself in jeopardy of being put out..... So where do we draw the line?

For me, and for the NFHS, we are going to look at it this way... Did the runner make any accommodation for the fielder, while keeping himself reasonably safe from not being put out? If yes, then we have nothing. If no, we have interference..... If the ball is coming down directly on the base, the runner gets more leeway than if the ball will come down 30 feet from the base (runner has time to vacate and safely return)

Naturally, if we feel the contact was intentional, then we always protect the fielder.
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Well, they report to where they’re told to. That isn’t their fault then likely...though in NCAA, we email coaches about a week out to confirm start times and location (and covid protocols and paperwork) but that was new to me.

I remember once I was told game started at 11am, showed up at 10:15, got dressed, cleaned my shoes, walked to field at 10:45, they were playing with a coach calling pitches from behind the rubber, game started at 10 apparently. <shrug>
Yep, it happens...

Whether in NCAA or in High School, there should always be a follow up protocol used. In NCAA, the weekend series assignments are followed up on by the crew chief. Single game assignments should be verified by each umpire... In High School, the assigners usually have the umpires confirm with the coaches the day before, and if weather is an issue, a set time for the two to confirm is in order....

Doesn't happen often, but mistakes (by both parties) do happen....
 

Thavoice

Well-known member
Well, they report to where they’re told to. That isn’t their fault then likely...though in NCAA, we email coaches about a week out to confirm start times and location (and covid protocols and paperwork) but that was new to me.

I remember once I was told game started at 11am, showed up at 10:15, got dressed, cleaned my shoes, walked to field at 10:45, they were playing with a coach calling pitches from behind the rubber, game started at 10 apparently. <shrug>
Yeah, it was just quite funny! Some blamed the umps but I was like their assigner tells them where to go. It wasnt like they look at the bracket to see where the game is!

I can see for regular season games they would confirm with coaches but how about for tournament?

But they did a fine job so it doesnt mater.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Yeah, it was just quite funny! Some blamed the umps but I was like their assigner tells them where to go. It wasnt like they look at the bracket to see where the game is!

I can see for regular season games they would confirm with coaches but how about for tournament?

But they did a fine job so it doesnt mater.
For tourney games we usually get a contact person, whether it be a site manager assigned by the tournament director or the tournament director him/herself....

Those contacts tend to change based on how deep you are in the tournament.
 

umpire16

Active member
Consequently I knew this crew and the tournament manager made the mistake not only in the arbiter, but in communication to the crew. With so many games happening, weather Monday pushing things around, and the fact you often don't know where games will be or who is playing until the day before, many things combined to make it happen. Not to mention, the tournament manager is usually an AD or other administrator at another school, sometimes quite far away (versus an AD at one of the schools playing).

From what I was told though by some who attended, the coaches were understanding and just glad to have good officials.
 
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