Ask The Ump?

From an umpiring standpoint ...
-IFF can be called even if it's not signaled, if the game state and then the playing action merits it
-However, from proper mechanics at least as I've been told, it should be signaled (visually and verbally) by the plate umpire once identified. As a base umpire, I will give a visual signal if I have a hit ball meeting infield fly consideration. Then as a plate umpire, if I see my base umpire give a visual signal, I am going to "piggy back" that with a verbal (and visual)
-When the IFF is not signaled, and it should be, it creates confusion. Then again, IFF situation properly called by umpire can become confusing as well if ball hits the ground because players start to panic.
 
bucksman said:
From an umpiring standpoint ...

-When the IFF is not signaled, and it should be, it creates confusion. Then again, IFF situation properly called by umpire can become confusing as well if ball hits the ground because players start to panic.
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The rule and interpretation that puts the onus on the runner based on this point by bucksman.

If the lack of signaling/verbalizing means that the IFF is not in place, then the protection for the runners disappears. They can be easily put out, via a force play or a tag, whereas a runner that attempts to advance on an IFF that is not caught can only be put of via a tag.

There's no perfect answer and the rules makers decided that since the rule affords the runners protection, it is on the runners to know the rule.

The fact that this situation is rare (IFF erroneously not called by the crew) backs up the rule and interpretation.
 
AllSports12 said:
The rule and interpretation that puts the onus on the runner based on this point by bucksman.

If the lack of signaling/verbalizing means that the IFF is not in place, then the protection for the runners disappears. They can be easily put out, via a force play or a tag, whereas a runner that attempts to advance on an IFF that is not caught can only be put of via a tag.

There's no perfect answer and the rules makers decided that since the rule affords the runners protection, it is on the runners to know the rule.

The fact that this situation is rare (IFF erroneously not called by the crew) backs up the rule and interpretation.
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Then the umpire should be required to call it since there are times it is a shady area, especially in HS and below.

College, professionals, yeah it is obvious, but at other levels there is too much ambiguity to let it up to the runners.
 
thavoice said:
Then the umpire should be required to call it since there are times it is a shady area, especially in HS and below.

College, professionals, yeah it is obvious, but at other levels there is too much ambiguity to let it up to the runners.
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This is a classic example of a solution in search of a problem.

The rule has been in effect for at least 50 years. Never has there been a proposal brought to the rules committee (which over that time involves hundreds of different people) for a a change to the rule.

Is it perfect?.... not when it happens.

How often does it happen?............ rarely.
 
AllSports12 said:
This is a classic example of a solution in search of a problem.

The rule has been in effect for at least 50 years. Never has there been a proposal brought to the rules committee (which over that time involves hundreds of different people) for a a change to the rule.

Is it perfect?.... not when it happens.

How often does it happen?............ rarely.
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I see it at least once a season, but then again the last 10 years much of my baseball viewing is below the varsity level.

Too old to remember the playing days, but I coached HS aged kids for a decade and it happened at that level a couple of times when it really was in between and a pure judgement call and a guess by the players (and coaches).

Not saying it happens often, I just do not understand why umpires always have the stance that the onus is on the players.

You have the chickenhawks who see the first pitch in the bullpen when someone is not wearing a mask/helment or no protector but are hesitant to place the IFR call solely on the umpire.


That is my stance.

Now to the next rule/mechanic.

Mr. Allsports:
HOw much emphasis do they put on using the proper mechanics for umpire on signaling a strike and a walk/take your base?
I am seeing too many using a strike hand signal and take your base as one in the same, and it can be confusing especially when the umpire's zone is poor.

We had a guy this week and man, on ball 4 you had no idea if he was telling the batter to take his base or calling a strike (he had an unique zone where down and away, low, was a strike. If you were pitcher and could locate it there ya could have thrown a perfect game as ya could not hit it with a boat oar, but he was consistent with it!)
 
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thavoice said:
Not saying it happens often, I just do not understand why umpires always have the stance that the onus is on the players.
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We always have that stance because the rule and the official interpretation from the NFHS requires us to. We don't get a choice. Whether or not we agree with the rule is irrelevant.

This isn't the only instance where we put the onus on the players to know the rule and situation.
 
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thavoice said:
Mr. Allsports:
HOw much emphasis do they put on using the proper mechanics for umpire on signaling a strike and a walk/take your base?
I am seeing too many using a strike hand signal and take your base as one in the same, and it can be confusing especially when the umpire's zone is poor.

We had a guy this week and man, on ball 4 you had no idea if he was telling the batter to take his base or calling a strike (he had an unique zone where down and away, low, was a strike. If you were pitcher and could locate it there ya could have thrown a perfect game as ya could not hit it with a boat oar, but he was consistent with it!)
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Strikes are always signaled with the right hand. (save for the rare occasions that the umpire hasn't the ability to use his/her right hand in this manner)

A visual signal should never accompany a declaration of a ball. The kids usually know the count and on the rare occasion that they don't, a simple "hey, that was ball four" or "take your base" does the trick.

When the plate umpire asks his partner for help and a checked swing, particularly when the count is 3-2, he should always use the left hand while asking out loud... "did he offer?".
 
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thavoice said:
I see it at least once a season, but then again the last 10 years much of my baseball viewing is below the varsity level.

Too old to remember the playing days, but I coached HS aged kids for a decade and it happened at that level a couple of times when it really was in between and a pure judgement call and a guess by the players (and coaches).

Not saying it happens often, I just do not understand why umpires always have the stance that the onus is on the players.

You have the chickenhawks who see the first pitch in the bullpen when someone is not wearing a mask/helment or no protector but are hesitant to place the IFR call solely on the umpire.


That is my stance.

Now to the next rule/mechanic.

Mr. Allsports:
HOw much emphasis do they put on using the proper mechanics for umpire on signaling a strike and a walk/take your base?
I am seeing too many using a strike hand signal and take your base as one in the same, and it can be confusing especially when the umpire's zone is poor.

We had a guy this week and man, on ball 4 you had no idea if he was telling the batter to take his base or calling a strike (he had an unique zone where down and away, low, was a strike. If you were pitcher and could locate it there ya could have thrown a perfect game as ya could not hit it with a boat oar, but he was consistent with it!)
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Truth be told Voice...this rule rarely becomes enforced bc an umpire who doesn’t recognize IFF situation didn’t make the call and likely, the “chips fell where they may”.

how often does an umpire not call it? Rarely

on the rare times he forgets, how often does the fielder actually miss it? Seldom?

on the very rare times the umpire forgets to call it AND the fielder misses it, how often do they get two outs out of it? If they’re not good enough to catch a pop up they probably aren’t throwing it around the field for a double play.

so putting all those things together, how often does the offense actually end the play at a disadvantage ? Probably almost never.

Imagine the ball drops, umpire didn’t call it, chaos ensues, and they get the guy out going to second. As the offense coach, are you gonna argue if he called it was IFF you would have first and second or letting it slide bc you have first and third ?

and yes I realize they could have advanced at their own risk, but if they are aware it’s IFF and they don’t have to run, they probably aren’t going to run on a dropped ball at the shortstops feet
 
CedarBuck92 said:
What are the rules concerning the batter having both feet in the box? Also does having a foot on the line count as in the box?
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A legal stance requires both feet to be in the batters box, and yes, the lines count as “in the box” the same way lines are fair territory on hits and rollers.

For a batter to be out because they are out of the box, one of their feet must meet one of two criteria when they contact the baseball:

1) Their ENTIRE foot is out of the box, meaning even one cleat touching the chalk is “in the box”

-or-

2) Their foot is touching the plate. (Note, it is possible to be in the box and touching the plate since most feet are longer than 6”)
 
To clarify....

When a batter takes his position inside the batter's box, both feet must be completely inside the box. (nothing out)

For a batter to be considered outside the batter's box when he contacts the ball, an entire knee or foot must be on the ground completely outside the box upon contact. (nothing in)

As CoachHoversten noted above, the lines are by rule, a part of the box.
 
AllSports12 said:
To clarify....

When a batter takes his position inside the batter's box, both feet must be completely inside the box. (nothing out)

For a batter to be considered outside the batter's box when he contacts the ball, an entire knee or foot must be on the ground completely outside the box upon contact. (nothing in)

As CoachHoversten noted above, the lines are by rule, a part of the box.
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Just one further clarification. Does a cleat have to touch out to be considered out (when taking position in the box) or does a cleat being out but not touching also count as out?
 
CedarBuck92 said:
Just one further clarification. Does a cleat have to touch out to be considered out (when taking position in the box) or does a cleat being out but not touching also count as out?
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I don’t think the rule clarifies “the floating cleat”.....I know NCAA wrestling uses the “floating” rule for OB, ie, imagine a 3D image above the edge of the line and hovering above it but still inside it counts.

Sometimes batters kind of step up on a toe (heel raised). If a single cleat is hovering over the chalk line, I don’t think any official is going to say something as you’re basically looking to pick bones there...now if a kid digs his toe into the back of the chalk and his entire heel is elevated over and past the back edge, that is the batter trying to gain an advantage and he must move up.

For what it’s worth, the penalty for an illegal starting position is that the umpire shall not permit a pitch and make the batter take a legal stance. No other penalties incur unless the batter refuses to do so .

So if you were looking to get an out or something, that is not supported by rule
 
CoachHoversten said:
I don’t think the rule clarifies “the floating cleat”.....I know NCAA wrestling uses the “floating” rule for OB, ie, imagine a 3D image above the edge of the line and hovering above it but still inside it counts.

Sometimes batters kind of step up on a toe (heel raised). If a single cleat is hovering over the chalk line, I don’t think any official is going to say something as you’re basically looking to pick bones there...now if a kid digs his toe into the back of the chalk and his entire heel is elevated over and past the back edge, that is the batter trying to gain an advantage and he must move up.

For what it’s worth, the penalty for an illegal starting position is that the umpire shall not permit a pitch and make the batter take a legal stance. No other penalties incur unless the batter refuses to do so .

So if you were looking to get an out or something, that is not supported by rule
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Interesting question. I will say that in over 5 decades of being involved with this, I have never encountered a batter that was either so far off the plate that his heel (front or back) was hanging over, but not touching the ground outside the batter's box lines on the first or third base side. The only other way I could see that happening would be the rear foot angled to a point that it was hanging over the rear (closest to catcher) of the box.....

That said, using planes does have a basis for an argument in baseball. We use planes when calling balls and strikes as well as the foul lines when determining fair/foul. However planes do not apply with regards to dead ball territory. (ball in flight over a line or fence)

Since a batter can legally make contact with a foot in the air while it is completely outside of the plane of the the batter's box line, I'm allowing a batter to take that original position with a heel over the line, but not touching the ground.
 
Once the batter steps into the box and the play becomes "live" it's at the umpire's discretion to call time...is that correct. Had a situation over the weekend where a batter raised his hand to ask for time and stepped out of the box. The pitcher stopped in mid-delivery and was charged with a balk. Baserunners advanced.

Also, what's the penalty for being ejected? Pitching coach got tossed last night for telling the umpire he missed a called strike three. Is he required to leave the facility, or can he watch from the press box?
 
green_genes said:
Once the batter steps into the box and the play becomes "live" it's at the umpire's discretion to call time...is that correct. Had a situation over the weekend where a batter raised his hand to ask for time and stepped out of the box. The pitcher stopped in mid-delivery and was charged with a balk. Baserunners advanced.

Also, what's the penalty for being ejected? Pitching coach got tossed last night for telling the umpire he missed a called strike three. Is he required to leave the facility, or can he watch from the press box?
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Regarding time out requests.........Time is not out and the ball remains live until an umpire grants that request. The umpire is never required to grant a request for time out.

- If a pitcher stops his delivery because a batter steps out of the box with one foot or holds up his hand to request "time" it is never a balk (with runners on) or an illegal pitch (without runners on). The umpire is to call time out and play will begin anew. (re-start, with no penalty)

- If the batter steps out with both feet a strike is automatically called on the batter.

- If the pitcher, in any of those situations delivers (does not stop and pitches) the ball, it shall be called a strike (regardless of where it is in relation to the strike zone) and the ball remains live.

Therefore, for a batter that steps out of the box with two feet after the pitcher begins, then completes his delivery.... two strikes are assessed to the batter......

If the umpire judges that the batter called time, stepped out, or committed any act for the purpose of causing a balk.............. that batter is ejected from the game.


To your question about an ejected coach..... If ejected, he is to leave the vicinity of the playing area immediately and is prohibited from further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. Should a player become injured after a coach has been ejected, he may return to tend to that injured player.
 
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green_genes said:
Once the batter steps into the box and the play becomes "live" it's at the umpire's discretion to call time...is that correct. Had a situation over the weekend where a batter raised his hand to ask for time and stepped out of the box. The pitcher stopped in mid-delivery and was charged with a balk. Baserunners advanced.

Also, what's the penalty for being ejected? Pitching coach got tossed last night for telling the umpire he missed a called strike three. Is he required to leave the facility, or can he watch from the press box?
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As AllSports mentioned, time does not have to be granted, however, the pitcher should not have been charged with a balk. That was a misapplication of the rule. Imagine the fiasco that could occur if batters learn they can draw balks by stepping out and "calling time" after the pitcher has begun his motion (when the umpire won't grant it).

If you are a coach or a fan of the team that was in the field, the best thing you can do is teach your pitchers to NEVER stop delivering their pitch. Worst case, they throw a pitch that doesn't count. But as AllSports said, if the batter steps out, they get a free strike, even if it is in the dirt. (This is assuming the umpire knows THAT rule, b/c if they think the stop is a balk, they might not...)

But I never want a pitcher suddenly stopping their momentum during a pitch. Possible injury, possible balk apparently depending on the umpire (was this HS? Youth?)

For what it's worth, in the NCAA, a delivered pitch with a batter that stepped out is to be called a ball or strike depending on its location (like normal), it is not an automatic strike. However, like NFHS, the pitcher stopping is NEVER a balk in this situation
 
In fairness to the umpire, the pitcher may have balked prior to the batter calling time...second balk of the game, and possibly the second of the inning. He was not pausing very long after coming set. It might have been a case of the batter calling time and stepping out *after* the base umpire called a balk. Between the weather and COVID rescheduling, they are playing every day at this point and it's hard to remember what happened and when. The schedule also means kids getting innings who don't have a lot of experience.

The automatic strike rule is a good one to know, though.

In the game last night the HP umpire stopped the game to have a batter remove a necklace prior to his third AB. Opposing coach came out to talk to the umpire...not sure what about?

Finally, in a JV game last week one of the kids left in the middle of the game. We'd subbed a kid out earlier, and put him back in the game to replace the player who left. We were down 12 in the 4th inning and I assume the opposing coach consented, but that can't be legal.
 
green_genes said:
In fairness to the umpire, the pitcher may have balked prior to the batter calling time...second balk of the game, and possibly the second of the inning. He was not pausing very long after coming set. It might have been a case of the batter calling time and stepping out *after* the base umpire called a balk. Between the weather and COVID rescheduling, they are playing every day at this point and it's hard to remember what happened and when. The schedule also means kids getting innings who don't have a lot of experience.

The automatic strike rule is a good one to know, though.

In the game last night the HP umpire stopped the game to have a batter remove a necklace prior to his third AB. Opposing coach came out to talk to the umpire...not sure what about?

Finally, in a JV game last week one of the kids left in the middle of the game. We'd subbed a kid out earlier, and put him back in the game to replace the player who left. We were down 12 in the 4th inning and I assume the opposing coach consented, but that can't be legal.
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In HS, a starter can re-enter one time. You didn't give a lot of details but it is not an illegal substitution simply because the player re-entered.
 
green_genes said:
In the game last night the HP umpire stopped the game to have a batter remove a necklace prior to his third AB. Opposing coach came out to talk to the umpire...not sure what about?
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When a player is discovered wearing jewelry, a team warning is issued to the Head Coach. Any subsequent violators of the rule are ejected upon discovery.
 
green_genes said:
Finally, in a JV game last week one of the kids left in the middle of the game. We'd subbed a kid out earlier, and put him back in the game to replace the player who left. We were down 12 in the 4th inning and I assume the opposing coach consented, but that can't be legal.
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Every starter that has been substituted for may re-enter the game once, provided he is eligible and he re-enters the game in the same position in the batting order.
 
CoachHoversten said:
In HS, a starter can re-enter one time. You didn't give a lot of details but it is not an illegal substitution simply because the player re-entered.
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Sorry.

In this scenario, player A is batting 7th and playing LF. He is removed from the game for a PH, Player C, who replaces player A in LF the next inning.

One inning later, Player B, who is batting 9th and playing RF tells the coach he has to leave. The coach talks briefly with the home plate umpire and opposing coach, then tells the scorekeeper Player A will return to the game and bat 7th. Player C will now bat 9th and play RF.

I was under the impression that Players A and C could each re-enter the game once, but only in the 7th hole. In a competitive game, wouldn't the team have to play with 8 players and take an out in the 9th spot in the batting order (if they had no one else available to sub in for Player B)?
 
green_genes said:
Sorry.

In this scenario, player A is batting 7th and playing LF. He is removed from the game for a PH, Player C, who replaces player A in LF the next inning.

One inning later, Player B, who is batting 9th and playing RF tells the coach he has to leave. The coach talks briefly with the home plate umpire and opposing coach, then tells the scorekeeper Player A will return to the game and bat 7th. Player C will now bat 9th and play RF.

I was under the impression that Players A and C could each re-enter the game once, but only in the 7th hole. In a competitive game, wouldn't the team have to play with 8 players and take an out in the 9th spot in the batting order (if they had no one else available to sub in for Player B)?
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Yeah, you have to to reenter into the same spot and it just seems like they worked something out

Was this Varsity? JV? FROSH? and what was the score. If it was a varsity contest I would think long and hard as an opposing coach to allow this especially if the game was competitive.



Mr. Allsports....what say you on roster batting at the HS level, specifically on the FROSH team? (They generally play other FROSH teams and some JV squads).
 
green_genes said:
Sorry.

In this scenario, player A is batting 7th and playing LF. He is removed from the game for a PH, Player C, who replaces player A in LF the next inning.

One inning later, Player B, who is batting 9th and playing RF tells the coach he has to leave. The coach talks briefly with the home plate umpire and opposing coach, then tells the scorekeeper Player A will return to the game and bat 7th. Player C will now bat 9th and play RF.

I was under the impression that Players A and C could each re-enter the game once, but only in the 7th hole. In a competitive game, wouldn't the team have to play with 8 players and take an out in the 9th spot in the batting order (if they had no one else available to sub in for Player B)?
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Only the starter (in this case player A) has re-entry capabilities. He can re-enter, in the 7-hole, but player C is not replaced and is no longer eligible to play.

To legally continue this contest upon player B's departure, his team would have to play with 8 players and receive an automatic out when player B's place in the lineup arrived.
 
thavoice said:
Yeah, you have to to reenter into the same spot and it just seems like they worked something out

Was this Varsity? JV? FROSH? and what was the score. If it was a varsity contest I would think long and hard as an opposing coach to allow this especially if the game was competitive.



Mr. Allsports....what say you on roster batting at the HS level, specifically on the FROSH team? (They generally play other FROSH teams and some JV squads).
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JV game. Down 12-0 in the 4th inning. Coach is new to HS baseball - needs a little help with the nuances of DH/EH. 11 kids on the team all about equally untalented...using the EH and having a DH would allow him to play them all.

Is the EH treated the same as a position player for fielding purposes like it is in U14 and below? Seems like an easy way to get everyone playing time at these lower levels.

He would also benefit from having the 2nd pitcher be the DH or EH to start the game so they can properly warm up. I cringe every time I see a kid get waved in to take the mound from CF in the middle of an inning.
 
thavoice said:
Mr. Allsports....what say you on roster batting at the HS level, specifically on the FROSH team? (They generally play other FROSH teams and some JV squads).
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I'm 100% against roster batting. Leave that for the young kids in the summer.

There's a reason why the NFHS is reluctant to make exceptions to rules. This would be a prime example as this eliminates the DH rule, re-entry rule, and sets up the potential for a problems if a game is suspended and resumed on another day.
 
AllSports12 said:
I'm 100% against roster batting. Leave that for the young kids in the summer.

There's a reason why the NFHS is reluctant to make exceptions to rules. This would be a prime example as this eliminates the DH rule, re-entry rule, and sets up the potential for a problems if a game is suspended and resumed on another day.
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As an umpire, at a FROSH or JV game, would you deny the use of it even if a team just had 10 players.

Just curious.

Team I know only had one set of umpires decline (they have played 18 games this spring) and when the opposing coach interjected he would not have an issue with batting 10 and would do the same if the umpire allowed it, they let it go.

I agree, I am not about changing rules and such but I guess at the FROSH level I dont have an issue with it
 
green_genes said:
JV game. Down 12-0 in the 4th inning. Coach is new to HS baseball - needs a little help with the nuances of DH/EH. 11 kids on the team all about equally untalented...using the EH and having a DH would allow him to play them all.

Is the EH treated the same as a position player for fielding purposes like it is in U14 and below? Seems like an easy way to get everyone playing time at these lower levels.

He would also benefit from having the 2nd pitcher be the DH or EH to start the game so they can properly warm up. I cringe every time I see a kid get waved in to take the mound from CF in the middle of an inning.
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There is no provision in the rules for an EH under NFHS Rules.
 
I agree with AS12 that roster batting is not something we should be doing in the spring, but I'd add that at the Varsity level only.

To me, in JV or frosh (or JV "B" as they insist on calling it in certain parts of the state), I'd be in favor of roster batting. The NFHS is always expressing their concern about participation in baseball. This is a way to increase that. Defensive subbing could be the same in that each player could be removed defensively once, still bat, and then re-enter into the field on defense. Once a hitter who did not start defensively enters to play the field and is then removed (via 're-entry' of the starter) they can only hit for the rest of the game. Sounds antithetical, but it's sub-varsity so let's support the kids playing.

Also sub-varsity games should be 6 innings in my mind. Sure, larger schools are not afflicted, but some of the smaller schools who barely hang on with a roster should be permitted to play 6 outside of the "mutual agreement to end the game" rule. Every other HS sport generally plays reduced time the lower you go, so why not baseball? I've seen many, many JV teams fold in our area of the state due to low participation. This might help. But the NFHS is slow to change because many will argue "this isn't real baseball."
 
thavoice said:
As an umpire, at a FROSH or JV game, would you deny the use of it even if a team just had 10 players.

Just curious.

Team I know only had one set of umpires decline (they have played 18 games this spring) and when the opposing coach interjected he would not have an issue with batting 10 and would do the same if the umpire allowed it, they let it go.

I agree, I am not about changing rules and such but I guess at the FROSH level I dont have an issue with it
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Not just NO!..... But HELL NO !!

An umpire should never agree to continue working a game with altered playing rules...... Never

Let's say we allow roster batting, or allow substitute C to move from 7th in the order to 9th in the order so his team won't have to play with 8......

Now player C (or any of the "roster players") runs into the fence, his teammate, or is hit in the head by a pitched ball and suffers a catastrophic injury..... The umpire(s) are hip deep in it from a liability standpoint. So are the coaches. This is negligence 101. You knowingly permitted a player to participate when the rules specifically prohibit that participation....... The lawyers will laugh (so will the judge) at the "we just wanted the kids to play" defense.


We have rules for a reason...... that is just one example.

For those who bring up participation, those rules already have the participation component built into them. We do not have the authority to alter those rules for any reason.

We are in the "rule change" part of the season. Change proposals are being considered this time of year. Petition the OHSAA to submit a proposed change that allows allows this....
 
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