Ask the ref?

Let's not get bogged down in minutiae here over written narrative, since w/o a visual play to assess, discussion around deliberate play vs. deflection is going to be really hard to have people on the same page. Give people that visual clip, I'm guessing the opinion/interpretation of the rule will reach closer to a convergence.

The key takeaway(s) from the few posts: the rules (NFHS) and laws of the game (FIFA) both have this deliberate play vs. deflection concept in them; and then what the considerations, responsibilities, and mechanics are from an AR and REF standpoint in applying the rule/law given an in-game scenario.
 
belied dat said:
Should have been offside.

The whole "deliberate play on the ball" is supposed to be in reference to a player actually trying to possess or control the ball in a specific direction (to one's self, teammate, etc.). The "deliberate play" is not a defending slide or tackle.

In the circumstance that @coolguy was mentioning about a headed attempt, this same example was used by a referee assignor/coordinator/educator to a group of coaches I was with. A headed ball should be a controllable ball, especially one that allows for a defender to be stationary and jump for a challenge. An attacking team is not supposed to be punished because a defending team is poor at controlling a ball. An attacker can still gain an unfair advantage by being in an offside position with the "new" offside application.
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If it was a pass to a teammate in an offside position, and the defender outstretched his leg and contacted the ball, then it is not offside. The rules don't change according to a players skill level. What if we were to apply your logic to fouls?
 
SteelyMike said:
If it was a pass to a teammate in an offside position, and the defender outstretched his leg and contacted the ball, then it is not offside. The rules don't change according to a players skill level. What if we were to apply your logic to fouls?
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Apparently you had a hard time in what is "deliberately playing" and what is not when I clearly differentiated between the two.

But, funny you try to compare the two as "deliberate" is really only referenced with fouls when it is a deliberate handball, deliberate delaying of a restart, deliberately leaving the field of play, or deliberately being kicked to the goalkeeper...Nowhere does it have to be a deliberate charges, deliberate jumps at, deliberate push, deliberate trip, etc. So, the logic does fit. Fouls aren't necessarily tied to skill BUT playing the game is.

Even more, the rules DO change according to a player's skill level. What may be considered a foul in high school or youth club possibly isn't a foul beyond that level. Obviously it is due to player safety first and foremost, but it's also dealing with higher skilled players and a different pace of the game that allows for more physicality in the game to exist. Even the most basic of calls to make (improper throw-ins) are more regularly called at the youth level than the higher levels. Yes, there are definitely more improper throw-ins to call, but the next levels past youth definitely have illegal throw-ins that aren't called because referees sometimes don't mess with the trivial calls.
 
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bucksman said:
Let's not get bogged down in minutiae here over written narrative, since w/o a visual play to assess, discussion around deliberate play vs. deflection is going to be really hard to have people on the same page. Give people that visual clip, I'm guessing the opinion/interpretation of the rule will reach closer to a convergence.

The key takeaway(s) from the few posts: the rules (NFHS) and laws of the game (FIFA) both have this deliberate play vs. deflection concept in them; and then what the considerations, responsibilities, and mechanics are from an AR and REF standpoint in applying the rule/law given an in-game scenario.
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Now that we’re a half-year removed from this specific situation, let’s dive back down the rabbit hole because this subject is very controversial and interesting!

If the defender *attempts* to play the ball (lunges at it) but misses *touching* the ball by inches then is a player who was in an offside position when the ball was played ruled offsides?
 
OhioBobcatFan06 said:
Now that we’re a half-year removed from this specific situation, let’s dive back down the rabbit hole because this subject is very controversial and interesting!

If the defender *attempts* to play the ball (lunges at it) but misses *touching* the ball by inches then is a player who was in an offside position when the ball was played ruled offsides?
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Yes.
 
Somewhat random question, along with a mini rant...

In my son's game over the weekend (blowout win, so everything is pretty casual by this point), our team gives up a goal that looked like a pretty clear offside. It's like 7-0 at this point, so nobody is really going to make a big stink about it. Casually, my son asks the AR on his side (not the one on that half of the field) if he thought it looked offside and the AR says the kid was pretty far offside. My son asks him if he would have been able to raise his flag and call the offside. AR said he could, but it would make the other AR look bad, so it's rarely ever done.

Just curious others thoughts on that? Has anyone ever seen the opposite AR make an offside call that wasn't on their half of the field?

Oh, and the side rant - I realize that there is a serious shortage of referees these days, but there is nothing more frustrating that watching an AR make no attempt to even try to keep up with the last defender. I understand (somewhat) when ARs are struggling to keep up with the play if it's moving fast, but I sat and watching this guy move no more than 10 yards in either direction for an entire game. He had no way of being able to determine offside for the majority of the game.
 
I saw a local Coach post that an AR sat in a chair on one sideline during a game he coached or watched about a month ago… all people can do is report it I guess? Not much will change with the shortage and the shortage probably won’t change because it’s a crappy gig from what I can tell.
 
Chelsea Footballer said:
I saw a local Coach post that an AR sat in a chair on one sideline during a game he coached or watched about a month ago… all people can do is report it I guess? Not much will change with the shortage and the shortage probably won’t change because it’s a crappy gig from what I can tell.
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That's just sad. I know referees get a lot of crap, but it would be nice if they took at least a little pride in what they do.
 
footballsareround said:
Unless you are going to pick up a flag and help out. Stay in your lane and be a know it all dad cluelessly yelling from the stands.
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1. I didn't say a word out loud that day toward the ref.
2. Not that it should matter (and I hate that "pick up a flag" response to anything regarding refs), but I am getting certified to ref this winter (online portion is done, I'm waiting for an in person class to open up). I'm waiting until my son graduates before starting to ref, however, except maybe some rec/travel games in the meantime.
 
soccerdad72 said:
Has anyone ever seen the opposite AR make an offside call that wasn't on their half of the field?
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Absolutely not, nor should it ever happen.

AR1 has a role and AR2 has a role. If AR2 is making a call that AR1 should have made (or shouldn't have made) then AR2 probably isn't doing his/her job right. No way would an opposite AR truly know if someone is offside or onside in the moment it happens. The AR has his/her own role and should be watching what is happening in his/her own "zone."

If an AR flagged an offside on the opposite side of the field where another AR should have flagged it, I would be more than highly suspect of the call. If that happened, the CR should wave the flag down.
 
I apologize - I got clarification from my son the other day. It was the CR that he asked about the offside, not the AR2. CR said he thought it was offside but he wasn't going to make the AR1 look bad by calling it himself. That I have seen before (e.g. CR calling an offside that the AR didn't call), but I understand his logic. And, again, it was like 7-0 at the time, so nobody's making a big deal out of the play.
 
soccerdad72 said:
I apologize - I got clarification from my son the other day. It was the CR that he asked about the offside, not the AR2. CR said he thought it was offside but he wasn't going to make the AR1 look bad by calling it himself. That I have seen before (e.g. CR calling an offside that the AR didn't call), but I understand his logic. And, again, it was like 7-0 at the time, so nobody's making a big deal out of the play.
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Yes, the CR can call it, but will only happen if s/he are certain it's truly offside. Any inkling of question, then the CR should not whistle offside. The CR still has "other" priorities than checking if an attacker is offside.
 
0% chance I would ever call offsides as an AR on the opposite side of the field. Additionally, if I was CR and my opposite AR tried to call offsides I'd probably be confused as heck why their flag was up, go over to talk to them, and then ignore them and still not give offsides. That said, there are rare circumstances where as CR I might call offsides, but that's extremely rare. On the flip-side, I hate waving down my AR if I see a defender played the ball, but sometimes it is necessary...
 
Unusual play today, attacking player goes down inside 18. Neither team has clear possession but CR stops play for safety. Then restarts with drop ball just outside 18. Defense doesn’t contest drop ball and attacking player kicks ball out of the air into net. Ball did not touch ground and no other player touched ball. After several minutes of consultation CR called for goal kick, no goal. Play came late in game and result was pretty much decided. Any comments?
 
shoprat2 said:
Unusual play today, attacking player goes down inside 18. Neither team has clear possession but CR stops play for safety. Then restarts with drop ball just outside 18. Defense doesn’t contest drop ball and attacking player kicks ball out of the air into net. Ball did not touch ground and no other player touched ball. After several minutes of consultation CR called for goal kick, no goal. Play came late in game and result was pretty much decided. Any comments?
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First and foremost, the ruling on an uncontested drop ball is the ball is live once the ball is dropped, the player to whom the ball is dropped can take any action they wish, BUT before the ball is scored it must touch a player other than the one to whom the ball was dropped. Much like with an indirect free kick, if a the ball crosses the attacking goal line between the goal posts without touching a second player, the restart is a goal kick coming out.

Without seeing the play, I can't assess what the game state was in terms of what the restart scenario should have been. However the determination for an uncontested drop ball is based on the last team to have possession and the spot where the ball was kicked from. It is much "cleaner" if play is stopped when one of the two teams has possession, though evidently in this case it did not happen/was not able to have happened.
 
bucksman said:
First and foremost, the ruling on an uncontested drop ball is the ball is live once the ball is dropped, the player to whom the ball is dropped can take any action they wish, BUT before the ball is scored it must touch a player other than the one to whom the ball was dropped. Much like with an indirect free kick, if a the ball crosses the attacking goal line between the goal posts without touching a second player, the restart is a goal kick coming out.
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That's what I was thinking - drop balls are indirect. Also, doesn't the player need to let the ball at least hit the ground before kicking it?
 
soccerdad72 said:
That's what I was thinking - drop balls are indirect. Also, doesn't the player need to let the ball at least hit the ground before kicking it?
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Since the ball is put back into play by the referee, it is in play once it makes contact with the ground.

The ball must be dropped again if :
  • it is touched by a player before it makes contact with the ground or
  • if the ball leaves the field of play after it makes contact with the ground, without any player touching it.
The drop ball restart should have been redone.

Note that if a dropped ball enters the goal without touching at least two players play is restarted with:
  • a goal kick, if the ball is touched into the opponents’ goal
  • a corner kick, if the ball is touched into a player’s own goal.
 
sportsfanofyear said:
Since the ball is put back into play by the referee, it is in play once it makes contact with the ground.

The ball must be dropped again if :
  • it is touched by a player before it makes contact with the ground or
  • if the ball leaves the field of play after it makes contact with the ground, without any player touching it.
The drop ball restart should have been redone.

Note that if a dropped ball enters the goal without touching at least two players play is restarted with:
  • a goal kick, if the ball is touched into the opponents’ goal
  • a corner kick, if the ball is touched into a player’s own goal.
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Sounds like game officials got this right. To their credit center did consult with both AR then had the goal kick. Of course you had fans going nuts but coaches and teams had no complaints and got on with the game.
 
shoprat2 said:
Sounds like game officials got this right. To their credit center did consult with both AR then had the goal kick. Of course you had fans going nuts but coaches and teams had no complaints and got on with the game.
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Actually, the CR did not get it correct. You wrote "Ball did not touch ground" when it was kicked. Therefore, the drop ball restart was not done correctly and therefore, the drop ball needed to be done correctly.
 
Out of curiosity - how often do you call bad throw ins (at the high school level)?

Game last night, the opposing team's player basically chest passes the ball in bounds in the closing seconds of the game. As our players are protesting the throw, the player who received the throw in kicks a shot from about 30 yards or so away and scores the game winner with 16 seconds left.

Our team should certainly know to play to the whistle and they didn't, including our goalie, who was caught off his line pretty badly.

I was just wondering if that's a call that any referees really ever make anymore or is it really just something that has to be really egregious to call these days (e.g. jumping off the ground, sidearm throwing, etc.)?
 
soccerdad72 said:
Out of curiosity - how often do you call bad throw ins (at the high school level)?

Game last night, the opposing team's player basically chest passes the ball in bounds in the closing seconds of the game. As our players are protesting the throw, the player who received the throw in kicks a shot from about 30 yards or so away and scores the game winner with 16 seconds left.

Our team should certainly know to play to the whistle and they didn't, including our goalie, who was caught off his line pretty badly.

I was just wondering if that's a call that any referees really ever make anymore or is it really just something that has to be really egregious to call these days (e.g. jumping off the ground, sidearm throwing, etc.)?
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I have usually at least one a game. Most commonly it’s lifting the foot (yes, even at the varsity level!)

I don’t see many “wasn’t over your head” calls.
 
I was doing a middle school aged game a couple weeks back and a kid did a "chest pass." I couldn't help but laugh as I called it. His coach was standing right there and fortunately he found it funny too. I'd definitely call it if I saw it at a higher level, but in a close game at that level I'd probably have my eyes on other things.
 
While I don't call very many illegal throws, I have seen more at both the HS and college level this season. I think players think it is a trivial thing and that most referees won't call it. More times than not, it probably does go uncalled.
 
Victory for MSU said:
While I don't call very many illegal throws, I have seen more at both the HS and college level this season. I think players think it is a trivial thing and that most referees won't call it. More times than not, it probably does go uncalled.
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Worked 55 HS games this fall (regular season).....not sure I saw more than 2 or 3 called, which were obviously 'fouled throws'.....and at least a couple were because the ball didn't enter the field-of-play, as they tried to cut the touchline too close. Most all of us would warn a player who was doing something that MIGHT be illegal before whistling it. Get the ball back into play...... :rolleyes:
 
MJ_SoccerRef said:
Worked 55 HS games this fall (regular season).....not sure I saw more than 2 or 3 called, which were obviously 'fouled throws'.....and at least a couple were because the ball didn't enter the field-of-play, as they tried to cut the touchline too close. Most all of us would warn a player who was doing something that MIGHT be illegal before whistling it. Get the ball back into play...... :rolleyes:
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Whenever I'm an AR I make sure to warn kids that might be close.

Almost no one actually calls it though
 
EastYoungstown said:
Was at US Club Soccer Regionals this weekend.

It was hot so coaches and refs agreed to water breaks each half. No problem there of course.

The thing I found odd was that the ref actually kept the clock running through both breaks, taking about 8 minutes off of a 70 minute game that was pretty even and ended 1-0.

I found that quite bizarre to lose that much time.

Is this normal?

I've done breaks before while reffing games but always paused the time or just broke the game down into quarters to make things easier.
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At the professional level, during hydration breaks, the clock runs. They are not supposed to last more than 1 minute or so.......8 minutes is excessive, and that time should have been added to 'Extra Time', IF the Referee had the time on his wrist & a scoreboard wasn't being used. Worked a Scrimmage Tourney this past w/e & we stopped the clock during our 'water breaks'; I prefer doing that, IMHO.
 
Victory for MSU said:
While I don't call very many illegal throws, I have seen more at both the HS and college level this season. I think players think it is a trivial thing and that most referees won't call it. More times than not, it probably does go uncalled.
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I do a lot of men games and sometimes the older ethnic guys will test me on throws to see if I am paying attention... We all get a good laugh when I call it. I'm talking two legs up...
 
Had an odd situation the other day and was curious what the standard procedure is for this.

Started off the game with a three-man crew. About 10 minutes into game, center ref goes down with a leg cramp. Obviously, clock gets stopped, teams go to their benches and the trainer checks out the center ref.

Game restarts as a two-man system. The really odd part about it was that the crew had headsets from the beginning, and the center ends up sitting on the sideline for the remainder of the game, seemingly still communicating with the two other refs.

Has anyone seen that before? Should the center ref still been able to communicate with the other two during the game?
 
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