Any chance for a shot-clock yet?

[419Jester]

This is getting good. Thanks guys!

 

[AllSports12]

When did the NFHS add a 30 second option? I thought their approval was limited to the 35 second clock (2-14).

You are correct.

California uses a 30 second clock for girls games but I didn't think it had the NFHS' blessing.

Correct again, any state that deviates from the NFHS Rules or Specific Adoptions loses their turn in the rotation on the rules committee.

 

[AllSports12]

The fact that you gloss over the relationship assigners have with coaches and conferences is hilarious, and proves my point all along. The fact that you say preference isn't given to certain officials is absolutely hysterical.

So how does that work when an official works a league game with a coach who likes the shot clock and one that does not?

It's nearly as bad as the Elder people saying that certain legacy names don't have every door opened for them.

So are you back to being an alum or back to someone with no connections to the school but know plenty who have connections that keep you informed?

I don't care if you don't believe me. If that was the case, I would have been gone long ago.

Nah..... this place is littered with people who can't remember the stories they tell on here.

I'm real good at calling out people's BS.

Ironic

And when a ref comes on here and continually, year after year, lobbies for killing the adoption of a rule that's drastically needed, it's self-serving in some way. Why the hell would a ref care that much? Just call the game.

Well, I've repeatedly said that at the end of the day, I'll work the game based on the rules that are written. Already gave one example of this.

There's a term associated with this that is obviously foreign to you.....

Integrity..... I would not be where I am in life without it.

To throw it back on you, in one breathe "I will enforce whatever rules are passed", yet in another yell to the high hills about why it shouldn't be adopted is suspect at best.

Life is full of things that we don't like to do, but have to do anyway to succeed.

 

[smurfyeah19]

I love how controversial this is. With that being said, HS basketball is in a really bad spot so I can’t help but think a shot clock could help. We’re running antiquated offenses & tournament attendance has became so bad that the higher seed now will host all games going forward in NW Ohio

 

[Talk some sense]

I agree with you in the fact that I don't want to see "gunning" basketball. I think this would be the interesting part of the game. Which teams and coaches are willing to adapt to the change to prevent your possessions that end up with a person forcing a shot at the end of the shot clock. It would also put additional focus on defense. I can't imagine how pumped you would be as a defense to force a team into a bad shot or not even get a shot off.

I don't think the shot clock will happen anytime soon in Ohio...

But that's what you'll get. Forced shots whether from great or less than good players isn't that fun to watch. I seen it in states with and without a shot clock. Most teams shoot quicker than that anyway. Why try to legislate against < 1% of games where a team stals in desperation? Makes no sense.

 

[Talk some sense]

Like with anything new, there would be a transition period for players and coaches. That's common sense.

But it would benefit the HS game in the long-run.

And of course you try to deny the good players the ball. That happens with or without a shot clock. The shot clock has no bearing on that.

Like with anything new, there would be a transition period for players and coaches. That's common sense.

But it would benefit the HS game in the long-run.

And of course you try to deny the good players the ball. That happens with or without a shot clock. The shot clock has no bearing on that.

Are we trying to "benefit" the high school "game" or the kids who play it? Quit fighting for something that would be difficult to implement and make no difference at all in 99%+ of games.

 

[Talk some sense]

Who cares why it was put in place for the NBA. That's not why the HS powers that be are looking at it. It's irrelevant.

 

[Talk some sense]

I can promise you this. I may not be in the room at the time of vote, but me and people like me have 150% been consulted on examining the true reasons for adoption of this at the HS level in Ohio. And I can also say with 150% confidence that the issues you and your cronies bring up are at the low end of the importance factor as to the reasons to do it.

I can also promise you that it's coming at some point in the next 5 years. And then when that happens, you will still say it's not needed.

Cronies is a very inflammatory word especially when used toward a knowledgeable person deeply committed to the sport at the high school level. You are indeed a very biased "observer" who seems to have an ax to grind for no apparent reason - the ones you offer don't hold up.

 

[Talk some sense]

This just proves, again, that your understanding of this is extremely shallow.

Adding a shot clock would add a completely new layer of strategy and creativity that's never even had to be used by HS coaches.

How does adding a shot clock lessen the demand for good defense? There is literally zero correlation. None.

And what coach with any grain of competence is just going to let his team run wild and do whatever they want just because there is a shot clock? Your points literally make no sense at all.

Not proven or even shown at all in states who have a shot clock. Sorry to introduce evidence lol.

 

[Talk some sense]

It's hilarious you call me a liar while also portraying a blatant conflict of interest at the same time.

Refs don't make the rules, but when those refs know coaches don't want this rule implemented because it takes away their control, they know to side with the coaches who give them games. It's all political fodder for continued self-sustaining cronyism at the high school level.

And before you say coaches want this, they don't. They say they want it publicly, but hum a completely different tune in private. Another lie I guess.

 

[Talk some sense]

The fact that you gloss over the relationship assigners have with coaches and conferences is hilarious, and proves my point all along. The fact that you say preference isn't given to certain officials is absolutely hysterical. It's nearly as bad as the Elder people saying that certain legacy names don't have every door opened for them.

I don't care if you don't believe me. If that was the case, I would have been gone long ago.

I'm real good at calling out people's BS. And when a ref comes on here and continually, year after year, lobbies for killing the adoption of a rule that's drastically needed, it's self-serving in some way. Why the hell would a ref care that much? Just call the game.

To throw it back on you, in one breathe "I will enforce whatever rules are passed", yet in another yell to the high hills about why it shouldn't be adopted is suspect at best.

More lies I guess.

He's allowed to have an opinion regardless of his role in the game. Same as sad sack fans.

 

[Talk some sense]

I love how controversial this is. With that being said, HS basketball is in a really bad spot so I can’t help but think a shot clock could help. We’re running antiquated offenses & tournament attendance has became so bad that the higher seed now will host all games going forward in NW Ohio

Is HS basketball in a bad spot overall? Or just <1% of games people don't like to watch because it doesn't entertain them enough? Would this fix everything you think is wrong with HS basketball? I doubt it would make even a bit of difference overall.

 

[Doublehelix]

Cronies is a very inflammatory word especially when used toward a knowledgeable person deeply committed to the sport at the high school level. You are indeed a very biased "observer" who seems to have an ax to grind for no apparent reason - the ones you offer don't hold up.

Yeah, my neighbor's nephew was next in line for the coveted shot clock operator role and the rug was pulled out from under him and he didn't get the job. I'm going to get all you naysayers!!!

What possible axe is there to grind in this situation? You people will say anything on this topic. Complete blinders, very similar to the Elder forum on this topic.

 

[Doublehelix]

He's allowed to have an opinion regardless of his role in the game. Same as sad sack fans.

Agree.

But there's a potential conflict as a ref knowing coaches have massive pull over who does their games.

 

[Doublehelix]

I love how controversial this is. With that being said, HS basketball is in a really bad spot so I can’t help but think a shot clock could help. We’re running antiquated offenses & tournament attendance has became so bad that the higher seed now will host all games going forward in NW Ohio

Very true.

And in true form, the response is that the game is fine and only 1% have an issue.

How blatantly inaccurate to say that, but they literally avoid what's right in front of them because they can't fathom swallowing their pride. You can't debate or have a conversation with people that deny what is right in front of their eyes.

 

[Doublehelix]

Is HS basketball in a bad spot overall? Or just <1% of games people don't like to watch because it doesn't entertain them enough? Would this fix everything you think is wrong with HS basketball? I doubt it would make even a bit of difference overall.

Everyone always says this about the entertainment value - but what becomes drastically more "entertaining" with the advent of a shot clock?

PROVEN - the adoption of a shot clock has a very small impact on scoring to the point where it's almost negligible. This argument is a myth. Type in "shot clock's impact on scoring" into Google and see for yourself. Droves and droves of evidence.

Do you really think a shot clock makes a terrible shooter a better shooter? No - it just means more misses. Shot clock adaption is scoring agnostic. It has nothing to do with increased points or a better entertainment factor. Hell, alot of times, it doesn't even equate to more shots taken. The argument is a COMPLETE myth.

 

[Doublehelix]

Cronies is a very inflammatory word especially when used toward a knowledgeable person deeply committed to the sport at the high school level. You are indeed a very biased "observer" who seems to have an ax to grind for no apparent reason - the ones you offer don't hold up.

The reasons I offer up are the exact same reasons being considered for the adoption of a shot clock in Ohio. So yeah, they hold up.

 

[Doublehelix]

Volunteer time keepers have a hard enough time getting basic time clock operation correct. Shot clock will be a disaster. I think it will end up having to be a ref, ref in training, or maybe a semi-retired ref that can't get up and down the floor anymore. But again, that will only add to the additional expenses for the schools.

More myths.

Check the states that have adopted. Expenses have been covered, and operators learn just like everyone else does. It hasn't been close to the disaster you keep making it out to be. There is literal evidence in every state that has adopted and none of them have described this chaotic nonsense that you describe.

Talk about making things up...

 

[smurfyeah19]

Is HS basketball in a bad spot overall? Or just <1% of games people don't like to watch because it doesn't entertain them enough? Would this fix everything you think is wrong with HS basketball? I doubt it would make even a bit of difference overall.

The crowds and overall attendance is beyond horrible. While there’s been a bit of a drop in football you can tell there’s been a major fall in HS basketball. Sellouts aren’t even a thing anymore in the Toledo area, whereas it wasn’t that long ago you had to buy tickets ahead of time for the biggest games

 

[Doublehelix]

The crowds and overall attendance is beyond horrible. While there’s been a bit of a drop in football you can tell there’s been a major fall in HS basketball. Sellouts aren’t even a thing anymore in the Toledo area, whereas it wasn’t that long ago you had to buy tickets ahead of time for the biggest games

All true.

To say these things aren't true is just stupid and not worthy of a conversation. To not even acknowledge this reality is absurd.

 

[winbypin]

Like I said, people that think they're the smartest in the room who frankly don't have a clue.

You're the person that is coming off as thinking you are the smartest person in the room....and I think most feel you might be a little clueless.

 

[Doublehelix]

and I think most feel you might be a little clueless.

And that's exactly what makes me feel good in this environment.

There's nothing in my argument that's out of left field, and again, are the same reasons shot clock adoption is being looked at in Ohio. So....

 

[winbypin]

More myths.

Check the states that have adopted. Expenses have been covered, and operators learn just like everyone else does. It hasn't been close to the disaster you keep making it out to be. There is literal evidence in every state that has adopted and none of them have described this chaotic nonsense that you describe.

Talk about making things up...

And yet every week it seems we have clock operators that can't even get basic clock operation correct.

But sure, there will be no issues with the shot clock operation. You believe what you want.

 

[Doublehelix]

And yet every week it seems we have clock operators that can't even get basic clock operation correct.

But sure, there will be no issues with the shot clock operation. You believe what you want.

Humans are going to make mistakes.

There's also refs who can't get basic calls right, but that doesn't apply to them right? They're not beholden to your impossible standard of perfection? Or are they all perfect like you?

Scorekeepers make mistakes, coaches make mistakes, players make mistakes. It happens in all walks of life but clock operators have to be infallible for change to be realistic!!! How completely idiotic and ignorant.

Refs are some of the most self-righteous people on the planet. They never admit their mistakes, but know they make them. And in the same breath, expect everyone else to be perfect. Your explanation is the perfect example of most refs. Completely on brand.

This response coming from a ref is freakin hilarious, and exactly what I would expect.

I also go to a ton of basketball games. A ton. And I have never thought "man, that clock operator really screwed things up tonight." Periodically might there be an issue? Sure - but far far far from the epidemic you describe. You're completely making it out to be some consistent issue and it's just not. Again, who's lying?

I'd venture to guess the refs screw up far more than the clock operator on a per game basis. Should we alter the rules so you don't suck as much?

 

[winbypin]

Humans are going to make mistakes.

There's also refs who can't get basic calls right, but that doesn't apply to them right? They're not beholden to your impossible standard of perfection? Or are they all perfect like you?

Scorekeepers make mistakes, coaches make mistakes, players make mistakes. It happens in all walks of life but clock operators have to be infallible for change to be realistic!!! How completely idiotic and ignorant.

Refs are some of the most self-righteous people on the planet. They never admit their mistakes, but know they make them. And in the same breath, expect everyone else to be perfect. Your explanation is the perfect example of most refs. Completely on brand.

This response coming from a ref is freakin hilarious, and exactly what I would expect.

I also go to a ton of basketball games. A ton. And I have never thought "man, that clock operator really screwed things up tonight." Periodically might there be an issue? Sure - but far far far from the epidemic you describe. You're completely making it out to be some consistent issue and it's just not. Again, who's lying?

I am not a ref.

 

[AllSports12]

I am not a ref.

He has trouble remembering what he says, so he sure isn't going to remember what anyone else says.

 

[Yappi]

The crowds and overall attendance is beyond horrible. While there’s been a bit of a drop in football you can tell there’s been a major fall in HS basketball. Sellouts aren’t even a thing anymore in the Toledo area, whereas it wasn’t that long ago you had to buy tickets ahead of time for the biggest games

I'm willing to do a study to see if it would bring crowds to the game. Let's have a league (or two) that plays all their home games with a shot clock. Let's see how it works. Does it make the game better? Do more fans show up? Are there any problems?

What would also be interesting is to see how many out-of-league schools would want to play a game at these schools to experience the shot clock. The novelty of having the shot clock should bring alot of fans out to these games. Plus the coaches that are in favor of it should signup quickly to play a game at one of these schools.

Maybe you guys are right, maybe the game would get better and crowds would increase. Hopefully, you are willing to admit that the game may get worse and may not affect attendance at all.

IMO, there are alot of factors in the declining crowds. Most of it has to do with societal trends away from all sporting events and the number of star players that are leaving the OHSAA to play at basketball factories.

 

[Doublehelix]

Again, a shot clock isn't a magician. It doesn't solve world hunger.

It's not some switch that's flipped that instantly creates amazing basketball.

It doesn't make bad teams good, or good teams bad. It doesn't necessarily increase or decrease scoring. It won't pack consistently empty gyms. It won't fix kids taking stupid shots. It doesn't make a poor shooter a better shooter.

It creates consistent pace for both teams, and creates more time-expiring shot situations.

 

[winbypin]

Because HS basketball really needs more time expiring shot situations.

 

[AllSports12]

Because HS basketball really needs more time expiring shot situations.

which is why scoring does not go up with it's implementation....

But hey, at least we can watch that pace just before they throw up a prayer (from 20 feet)