Any chance for a shot-clock yet?

[Yappi]

Again, what does this have to do with the points I made about the reason for a shot clock?

You are doing what everyone else does. You're saying a shot clock is needed for things that I said aren't the reason for a shot clock.

I've already said in this thread that a shot clock hurts the game because it takes requires less strategy and less creativity.

It ruins the game, IMO. I want what is best for HS basketball. I can watch a low-scoring defensive battle and come away incredibly impressed. Adding a shot clock will lessen the demand for good defense and increase the importance of one-on-one offense and 3-point shooting.

 

[Yappi]

It may not be your preference as an observer, but that means nothing in the context of what's needed to improve the HS game.

HS basketball is the best level of basketball. I'll take it over NBA, College, and AAU basketball every day.

Adding a shot clock takes away from the game.

 

[419Jester]

I've already said in this thread that a shot clock hurts the game because it takes requires less strategy and less creativity.

It ruins the game, IMO. I want what is best for HS basketball. I can watch a low-scoring defensive battle and come away incredibly impressed. Adding a shot clock will lessen the demand for good defense and increase the importance of one-on-one offense and 3-point shooting.

It doesn’t require less strategy. It requires different strategy and adds different levels of strategy.

 

[Doublehelix]

You have no idea what you are talking about.... Zero

Tell us how many meetings at the local, state, regional, or national level you have been a part of that's seriously discussed this rule. (serioulsy as in an actual vote was taken to affirm, reject, or table this adoption)

I'll answer that for you before you spin another one of your lies.....

It's noted above....

Zero

I can promise you this. I may not be in the room at the time of vote, but me and people like me have 150% been consulted on examining the true reasons for adoption of this at the HS level in Ohio. And I can also say with 150% confidence that the issues you and your cronies bring up are at the low end of the importance factor as to the reasons to do it.

I can also promise you that it's coming at some point in the next 5 years. And then when that happens, you will still say it's not needed.

 

[Yappi]

I'll use MLB as an example. The defense allows for bunt base hits all the time. Hitters refuse to take advantage of what is given to them. They want the home run because they think it is better. Hitting averages tank. Instead of making the hitters get better, they made the defense stop playing so well. Made them quit positioning the players where the offense was hitting the ball. That is silly. Make players get better, don't force the other team to make it easier.

 

[Doublehelix]

I've already said in this thread that a shot clock hurts the game because it takes requires less strategy and less creativity.

It ruins the game, IMO. I want what is best for HS basketball. I can watch a low-scoring defensive battle and come away incredibly impressed. Adding a shot clock will lessen the demand for good defense and increase the importance of one-on-one offense and 3-point shooting.

This just proves, again, that your understanding of this is extremely shallow.

Adding a shot clock would add a completely new layer of strategy and creativity that's never even had to be used by HS coaches.

How does adding a shot clock lessen the demand for good defense? There is literally zero correlation. None.

And what coach with any grain of competence is just going to let his team run wild and do whatever they want just because there is a shot clock? Your points literally make no sense at all.

 

[Yappi]

It doesn’t require less strategy. It requires different strategy and adds different levels of strategy.

Those strategies already exist. Not one new strategy will be created. But it will force coaches who do not employ those strategies to switch to them.

OTOH, the slow-down offensive strategy will become illegal. We will wipe out strategy and creativity.

 

[AllSports12]

I can promise you this. I may not be in the room at the time of vote, but me and people like me have 150% been consulted on examining the true reasons for adoption of this at the HS level in Ohio.

Liar

I can also promise you that it's coming at some point in the next 5 years.

Wow, that's like predicting that the sun will come up tomorrow.

 

[Doublehelix]

Those strategies already exist. Not one new strategy will be created. But it will force coaches who do not employ those strategies to switch to them.

OTOH, the slow-down offensive strategy will become illegal. We will wipe out strategy and creativity.

Not one new strategy will be needed by coaches with the adoption of a shot clock? Your statements are simply bizarre.

 

[419Jester]

Those strategies already exist. Not one new strategy will be created. But it will force coaches who do not employ those strategies to switch to them.

OTOH, the slow-down offensive strategy will become illegal. We will wipe out strategy and creativity.

Two for one doesn’t exist right now.
2-2-1 to slow down the break to shrink the clock doesn’t exist right now.
switching defenses mid shot clock to place pressure on the offense doesn’t exist.

damn man should I keep going. You said there isn’t one. My god man.

 

[Yappi]

This just proves, again, that your understanding of this is extremely shallow.

Adding a shot clock would add a completely new layer of strategy and creativity that's never even had to be used by HS coaches.

How does adding a shot clock lessen the demand for good defense? There is literally zero correlation. None.

And what coach with any grain of competence is just going to let his team run wild and do whatever they want just because there is a shot clock? Your points literally make no sense at all.

I've watched alot of NBA, College, and HS basketball. Take the names and numbers off the jerseys and it is almost impossible to differentiate one NBA team from another. College basketball has some variability but most look like any other team. In HS, the contrast between teams is striking. Style of play can be drastically different from team to team.

HS basketball is more fun because of the variability of the style of play. The shot clock changes all the and it starts looking like the higher levels.

 

[Doublehelix]

Liar

Wow, that's like predicting that the sun will come up tomorrow.

So you know it's inevitable, yet continue to smear it. Why?

Do you think the people making this change have agendas?

Likely, you don't want to have to adapt your "craft" - scared to death of change and innovation. Well, thankfully the loud extremes are being ignored, knowing they are the ones who are self-serving.

 

[Yappi]

Not one new strategy will be needed by coaches with the adoption of a shot clock? Your statements are simply bizarre.

You think that the NBA and college coaches have overlooked a particular strategy for 70+ years? Some HS coach in Ohio is going to simply invent a new strategy overnight because they added a shot clock?

 

[Doublehelix]

Two for one doesn’t exist right now.
2-2-1 to slow down the break to shrink the clock doesn’t exist right now.
switching defenses mid shot clock to place pressure on the offense doesn’t exist.

damn man should I keep going. You said there isn’t one. My god man.

Like I said, people that think they're the smartest in the room who frankly don't have a clue.

 

[419Jester]

If it makes you feel any better. Regardless if there is a shot clock or not. Richmond heights will win D4.

 

[Doublehelix]

You think that the NBA and college coaches have overlooked a particular strategy for 70+ years? Some HS coach in Ohio is going to simply invent a new strategy overnight because they added a shot clock?

HS coaches in Ohio have never had to coach within a shot clock. You think they're just going to pick that up overnight because college and NBA use a shot clock? You don't think there would be a significant learning curve for HS coaches?

Just watch a couple college games and all is good

 

[Yappi]

Two for one doesn’t exist right now.
2-2-1 to slow down the break to shrink the clock doesn’t exist right now.
switching defenses mid shot clock to place pressure on the offense doesn’t exist.

damn man should I keep going. You said there isn’t one. My god man.

You really think those don't already exist?

 

[Yappi]

HS coaches in Ohio have never had to coach within a shot clock. You think they're just going to pick that up overnight because college and NBA use a shot clock? You don't think there would be a significant learning curve for HS coaches?

Just watch a couple college games and all is good

If there were only 10 offenses and suddenly you were told that you are limited to 5, do you think that increases strategy?

Also, never said that coaches would pick it up easily, I just think telling coaches that they have to pick from a limited set of options is not "increasing strategy".

 

[419Jester]

You really think those don't already exist?

They do not exist in the form in which I’m talking about them.
-If you think a 2 for 1 is holding for the last shot. You’re wrong.
-If you think I mean a press to slow transition. You’re wrong.
-If you think I mean just switching the defense. You’re wrong again.

so what are you talking about?

 

[419Jester]

If there were only 10 offenses and suddenly you were told that you are limited to 5, do you think that increases strategy?

Also, never said that coaches would pick it up easily, I just think telling coaches that they have to pick from a limited set of options is not "increasing strategy".

What offenses would be lost?

 

[Doublehelix]

If there were only 10 offenses and suddenly you were told that you are limited to 5, do you think that increases strategy?

What does that even mean? I have no clue what you're trying to prove.

 

[Yappi]

I'm struggling to understand how you guys think placing a time limit on an offense would increase strategy.

I think you guys are thinking on the micro level with a specific coach that he will have to come up with something new because his current style would not work with a shot clock.

On a macro level, there will be alot of coaches who will have to adjust their strategy because their style will not work (less strategy available to these coaches). At the same time, some coaches will not have to make any changes at all because their current style works within these new limits.

Again, making some coaches abandon a strategy is not "creating new strategies". It just means they have to adopt the strategy that other coaches already use (ie less strategy).

 

[AllSports12]

you know it's inevitable, yet continue to smear it. Why?

I've long said as an official, I could care less. A rule is a rule and I'll enforce it accordingly whether I like it or not. For example, I hate that coaches have the ability to request time out's from the sideline. But you can sure as hell bank on it that when a player is double teamed at the sideline and I'm at 4 on my 5 second count, I'm granting that request. (provided I"m 100% sure a request was made)

I object to it for the reasons stated.

Do you think the people making this change have agendas?

The NFHS is slowly but surely drifting towards the way that the NCAA handles business. For the last dozen odd years things have been coming down that mirror the NCAA.

Look at the NCAA today. If you and others that think like you think that the NFHS and/or the OHSAA should do things the way the NCAA does, well then....

You deserve everything that that cluster of an orgainization has done to college athletics.

Likely, you don't want to have to adapt your "craft" - scared to death of change and innovation. Well, thankfully the loud extremes are being ignored, knowing they are the ones who are self-serving.

Likely, you got put in your place by me once again identifying you as the serial liar that you are one here. (did the guys on the Elder forum make you lie again? )

Your weak attempt to insult me is proof positive of that. See my comments in the paragraph above regarding how I handle rules and rule changes. My resume is proof positive that your "likely" comment is just more hot air coming from you.

 

[Doublehelix]

Having a shot clock opens up a whole can of worms from a strategy perspective, and not just on offense.

You're only on defense for a finite amount of time, fouling at end of game, two for one strategies, etc, etc, etc. You would have to re-think most of what you've always done.

Just because those strategies exist doesn't mean a coach just throws them in their bag like a handful of apples and all is good. Really? If it was that easy, anyone could have success coaching.

Do you know how to build a house because alot of houses have been built?

 

[Doublehelix]

I've long said as an official, I could care less. A rule is a rule and I'll enforce it accordingly whether I like it or not. For example, I hate that coaches have the ability to request time out's from the sideline. But you can sure as hell bank on it that when a player is double teamed at the sideline and I'm at 4 on my 5 second count, I'm granting that request. (provided I"m 100% sure a request was made)

I object to it for the reasons stated.

The NFHS is slowly but surely drifting towards the way that the NCAA handles business. For the last dozen odd years things have been coming down that mirror the NCAA.

Look at the NCAA today. If you and others that think like you think that the NFHS and/or the OHSAA should do things the way the NCAA does, well then....

You deserve everything that that cluster of an orgainization has done to college athletics.



Likely, you got put in your place by me once again identifying you as the serial liar that you are one here. (did the guys on the Elder forum make you lie again? )

Your weak attempt to insult me is proof positive of that. See my comments in the paragraph above regarding how I handle rules and rule changes. My resume is proof positive that your "likely" comment is just more hot air coming from you.

What exactly do you think that I'm lying about? You act like I'm making some crazy claim. I used to coach HS basketball. And have been asked more than once my stance on what the strategic direction of this topic should be.

And you don't think the shot clock has been a positive for college basketball? And again, don't put words in my mouth as the reason it should be done, because I didn't say that. In fact, it's been talked about at the state level specifically that that shouldn't be used as a reason to adopt it.

 

[AllSports12]

What exactly do you think that I'm lying about?

Everything

That's your MO on here.

 

[D1nwobb]

NFHS has it as a 30 or 35 second option.

When did the NFHS add a 30 second option? I thought their approval was limited to the 35 second clock (2-14). California uses a 30 second clock for girls games but I didn't think it had the NFHS' blessing.

 

[Doublehelix]

It's hilarious you call me a liar while also portraying a blatant conflict of interest at the same time.

Refs don't make the rules, but when those refs know coaches don't want this rule implemented because it takes away their control, they know to side with the coaches who give them games. It's all political fodder for continued self-sustaining cronyism at the high school level.

And before you say coaches want this, they don't. They say they want it publicly, but hum a completely different tune in private. Another lie I guess.

 

[AllSports12]

It's hilarious you call me a liar

You admitted that you lie on here. It's been proven time and again. Then tried (as you always do) to play the "babe in the woods" routine by saying that those on your high school forum forced you to do so and you can't figure out why people don't believe you.

while also portraying a blatant conflict of interest at the same time.

Oh, do tell what my conflict is.

Refs don't make the rules, but when those refs know coaches don't want this rule implemented because it takes away their control, they know to side with the coaches who give them games.

As stated earlier, you have no idea what you are talking about. Zero...

Coaches do not give officials games. If you were really a coach, you would know that.

It's all political fodder for continued self-sustaining cronyism at the high school level.

And before you say coaches want this, they don't. They say they want it publicly, but hum a completely different tune in private.

 

[Doublehelix]

The fact that you gloss over the relationship assigners have with coaches and conferences is hilarious, and proves my point all along. The fact that you say preference isn't given to certain officials is absolutely hysterical. It's nearly as bad as the Elder people saying that certain legacy names don't have every door opened for them.

I don't care if you don't believe me. If that was the case, I would have been gone long ago.

I'm real good at calling out people's BS. And when a ref comes on here and continually, year after year, lobbies for killing the adoption of a rule that's drastically needed, it's self-serving in some way. Why the hell would a ref care that much? Just call the game.

To throw it back on you, in one breathe "I will enforce whatever rules are passed", yet in another yell to the high hills about why it shouldn't be adopted is suspect at best.

More lies I guess.