Ask The Ump?

[CoachHoversten]

2 on, 2 out.
Batter hits safely and 2 runs score.
Offensive coach comes out and informs the umpire that they did not announce that the batter was a substitution (legal one as far as I know).
Umpire then rules that the batter is now out but the runs that scored on his hit remain on the board.
Is this the correct ruling?

No. Unannounced substitute is not the same as batting out of order. And even if it was, the runs wouldn’t count.

Long story short, if the person who batted was an eligible substitute , it is just marked down as a substitution. Replaced player is out of game if they weren’t a starter or it’s their second time out of the game, otherwise eligible to re-enter.

IF the person who batted in that place was already in the lineup (out of order) or was an ineligible substitute, then they would be out and no runners may advance as a result of the batters actions (advances on passed balls, balks, etc would stand), so in your scenario, the runs would come off the board since they scored on a hit (again; if he was an ineligible substitute)

 

[Thavoice]

Long story short, if the person who batted was an eligible substitute , it is just marked down as a substitution. Replaced player is out of game if they weren’t a starter or it’s their second time out of the game, otherwise eligible to re-enter.

IF the person who batted in that place was already in the lineup (out of order) or was an ineligible substitute, then they would be out and no runners may advance as a result of the batters actions (advances on passed balls, balks, etc would stand), so in your scenario, the runs would come off the board since they scored on a hit (again; if he was an ineligible substitute)

One thing to remember for you coaches......if you notice someone batting out of order, WAIT UNTIL THE AT BAT IS COMPLETED. If you bring it up during the at bat they will be instructed to put the correct batter in and assume the count.

After the at bat you can report it and decide to either batter is out, or keep the play as it happened (many reasons why you would keep it as is).

but continue.......

 

[AllSports12]

IF the person who batted in that place was already in the lineup (out of order) or was an ineligible substitute, then they would be out and no runners may advance as a result of the batters actions (advances on passed balls, balks, etc would stand), so in your scenario, the runs would come off the board since they scored on a hit (again; if he was an ineligible substitute)

A few things to add here that pertain to illeagal substitutions..... (again for others reading this.....the original play that is being discussed is merely an unreported substitution, not an illegal substitution)

- Unlike batting out of order, an illegal substitution can be discovered and declared by an umpire (before the next pitch by either team)
- The illegal substitute is restricted to the bench for the remainder of the game.
- In the event there were less than two out, any outs made on any play the illegal substitute was involved in shall count. (and as noted prior, all runners return to where they were at the time of the pitch)

 

[AllSports12]

One thing to remember for you coaches......if you notice someone batting out of order, WAIT UNTIL THE AT BAT IS COMPLETED. If you bring it up during the at bat they will be instructed to put the correct batter in and assume the count.

After the at bat you can report it and decide to either batter is out, or keep the play as it happened (many reasons why you would keep it as is).

but continue.......

A coach has no option to keep the result of a play once he has appealed to the umpire that a batter was out of order.

If a coach wanted to keep the result of the play, they should stay quiet as that improper batter becomes a proper batter once no appeal was properly made. Now, the next legal batter is the batter who is listed behind that batter on the lineup card.

 

[Thavoice]

A coach has no option to keep the result of a play once he has appealed to the umpire that a batter was out of order.

If a coach wanted to keep the result of the play, they should stay quiet as that improper batter becomes a proper batter once no appeal was properly made. Now, the next legal batter is the batter who is listed behind that batter on the lineup card.

Copy. that is what I meant. Dont say anything during the bat, only afterwards if you do not want to keep the result of the play.

Story that some may enjoy on this subject if I may.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs, late in the game game tied.
Coach notices they are batting out of order. Asst goes to the mound to stall. I am sitting next to the dugout and hear what is going on. I tell the coach as I know he is going up to bring it up to the umpire and tell him to wait until after the at bat.
He replies like an arrogant "That is why you are sitting out there and I am in here".

Tells umpire, proper batter comes up and assume the count and the coach goes ballistic at the young umpire thinking he was wrong. Correct batter gets a hit and they take the lead.......


but i digress.

I really dove into that rule about 15 yrs ago when I was coaching and we brought it up during the at bat and we screwed the pooch.

The above instance happend within a few weeks of the Mets REds game so it was fresh in my memory....it was when the Mets batted out of order against the Reds. Want to say it was Jay Bruce who ended up 0-1 in the inning without an at bat! It wasnt the fault of the players tho....the coach wrote the lineup wrong on the card. Want to say it erased a triple or something from the Mets!

To this day I sit as far away from any coaches as way too often I have noticed many just flat out embarras themselves....

 

[UMU92]

Best way to deal with a player who is getting frustrated (For whatever reason) and starts to complain? At what point is enough enough? Talk to player first then coach?

 

[Thavoice]

Best way to deal with a player who is getting frustrated (For whatever reason) and starts to complain? At what point is enough enough? Talk to player first then coach?

Coach should notice it and nip it in the bud.
Howerver...tell the coach that if he does not handle it....you will.

And we know what that means. Ejection.

 

[AllSports12]

Best way to deal with a player who is getting frustrated (For whatever reason) and starts to complain? At what point is enough enough? Talk to player first then coach?

Talk to them..... Reason with them..... That little bit may just redirect their focus to where it needs to be. If it doesn't help, then get the coach involved.

A player that is frustrated and starts to complain doesn't need to be threatened with ejection. Now, if after engaging the coach and the behavior continues, is prolonged, personal, or becomes profane...... Then by all means you have paperwork to complete after the game.

 

[bucksman]

Talk to them..... Reason with them..... That little bit may just redirect their focus to where it needs to be. If it doesn't help, then get the coach involved.

A player that is frustrated and starts to complain doesn't need to be threatened with ejection. Now, if after engaging the coach and the behavior continues, is prolonged, personal, or becomes profane...... Then by all means you have paperwork to complete after the game.

and of course from an officiating standpoint, avoid at all costs threatening any action ... since failure to act on said action evaporates credibility.

 

[UMU92]

We have a RHP. He has his right foot parallel to the pitching rubber in front and touching it. He looks like he is in the set position. He then proceeds to step back a little with his left foot and basically is doing a windup pitch. What's the ruling?

 

[AllSports12]

We have a RHP. He has his right foot parallel to the pitching rubber in front and touching it. He looks like he is in the set position. He then proceeds to step back a little with his left foot and basically is doing a windup pitch. What's the ruling?

Illegal pitch. The ball is dead immediately.

Balk if runners are on base
Award a ball the the batter if no runners on base

 

[14Red]

Ok, this happened in a major league game (Reds/ Angels) not a high school game but I don't think the rule is different. Angel Anthony Rendon hit a chopper to 3rd to lead off the game Saturday night. It was going to be a close play, Candelario of the Reds threw the ball wide of the bag and Encarnacion-Strand came off the bag to catch the ball. Rendon, running down the first base line, pulls up about 10 ft. short of the bag and gimped past the bag, but did not touch the bag, unbeknownst to Encarncion-Strand. The first base umpire called the runner safe immediately.
My question is, what umpire watches to see if the runner touches first base? I thought the first base umpire was to watch the play from a distance where they can see the throw, the first baseman catch the ball with his foot on the bag AND see the runner touch first base. Rendon wasn't even close to touching the bag. Thoughts?

 

[UMU92]

Illegal pitch. The ball is dead immediately.

Balk if runners are on base
Award a ball the the batter if no runners on base

Watching the Guardians yesterday and Bibee was doing exactly what I described and probably why younger players and coaches see this and think it's ok at the HS level. Got me thinking as to why there are different rules (at different levels) for things that should be fundamental to the game like a pitching motion at all levels?

 

[AllSports12]

Ok, this happened in a major league game (Reds/ Angels) not a high school game but I don't think the rule is different. Angel Anthony Rendon hit a chopper to 3rd to lead off the game Saturday night. It was going to be a close play, Candelario of the Reds threw the ball wide of the bag and Encarnacion-Strand came off the bag to catch the ball. Rendon, running down the first base line, pulls up about 10 ft. short of the bag and gimped past the bag, but did not touch the bag, unbeknownst to Encarncion-Strand. The first base umpire called the runner safe immediately.
My question is, what umpire watches to see if the runner touches first base? I thought the first base umpire was to watch the play from a distance where they can see the throw, the first baseman catch the ball with his foot on the bag AND see the runner touch first base. Rendon wasn't even close to touching the bag. Thoughts?

Frist, the first base umpire has the primary responsibility for the batter runner touching first in this situation.

Next, I saw the play you have described. A runner is assumed to have touched any base they have passed. It is the responsibility of the defense to appeal any instance of a runner missing a base.

The umpire is to signal "safe" in this situation as making no signal will actually alert the opponent that the runner missed the base.

The umpire handled this exactly as he should have. The Angels failed by not appealing the play

 

[AllSports12]

Watching the Guardians yesterday and Bibee was doing exactly what I described and probably why younger players and coaches see this and think it's ok at the HS level.

Under The Official Baseball Rules, this is legal as long as the pitcher declares in advance that he is either in the stretch or the windup.

Not the case under NFHS Rules.

Got me thinking as to why there are different rules (at different levels) for things that should be fundamental to the game like a pitching motion at all levels?

The reason for the rule differences is the vast descrepencies in the abilities of the players, coaches, and umpires.

 

[14Red]

Frist, the first base umpire has the primary responsibility for the batter runner touching first in this situation.

Next, I saw the play you have described. A runner is assumed to have touched any base they have passed. It is the responsibility of the defense to appeal any instance of a runner missing a base.

The umpire is to signal "safe" in this situation as making no signal will actually alert the opponent that the runner missed the base.

The umpire handled this exactly as he should have. The Angels failed by not appealing the play

Actually the Reds did not appeal. They were on defense. So the umpire assumed Rendon touched first base and signaled safe. He should have not made any call. My guess is most are watching to see the ball caught by the first baseman, and assume the runner always touch first. I'm shocked the Reds didn't appeal it, but I think the first baseman rolled the ball off the field and then it was dead.

 

[AllSports12]

Actually the Reds did not appeal. They were on defense.

Yeah, I confused this play with the one where the Angels threw the ball against the netting that covers the camera well behind first.

So the umpire assumed Rendon touched first base and signaled safe. He should have not made any call.

That's not correct. He signaled safe because that's what they are supposed to do in this situation.

My guess is most are watching to see the ball caught by the first baseman, and assume the runner always touch first.

They are watching and listenening to both the ball hitting the glove and the foot hitting the bag. (or the ground as in this siuation.

 

[thePITman]

Had this happen in a game last night. Batter hits a ball to right field. The ball short-hops the RF and gets past him. The batter rounds first base on his way to second base, runs into the 1B, and gets knocked to the ground. By the time the batter gets up off the ground, the RF has the ball, so the batter retreats to first base, again running into the 1B and tripping, eventually getting back to the bag.

We had only 1 umpire, so I approached the umpire, and the first thing I said was, "I know we only have 1 umpire, and maybe you didn't see it, but did you happen to see the obstruction on the first baseman?" He said that he saw it, but that it "wasn't that bad." After a little debate, he said he would not be awarding the batter second base. He didn't give any reasoning, just that "it wasn't that bad" (it WAS that bad).

Question #1: Does the runner HAVE to continue running to the next base after obstruction occurs in order to be awarded the next base? (what if the ump didn't see the obstruction, we can't bank on it being called, like last night, and risk getting thrown out in vain) And is there a rule that addresses the supposed severity of the impediment? Or is it black-and-white - either it happened or it didn't? Does it come into play whether or not the runner would have had a realistic shot at getting to the next base? (the ump didn't use any of these as arguments, I just want to know for my own knowledge)

Question #2 (new topic): Once an umpire calls a ball or strike, is there any grace period in which he can change his call? Scenario: Full count, 2 outs. Pitch is called strike 3. Catcher tosses the ball toward the mound, and half our team is off the field, and then the umpire changes his call to a ball, and the batter gets to first base. Thankfully the batter didn't take 2B. (yes, same ump)

Question #3: Does your answer to any of the questions above change slightly knowing that (1) it was a JV game, and (2) the team who benefitted from both calls was trailing 17-0 in the 2nd inning? Where do you draw the line between calling the game by the letter of the law and adjusting it to fit the competitiveness of the game?

 

[vvFan52]

Concerning the "Hidden Ball Trick", I have heard that in high school a balk is called if the pitcher is within 5 feet of the pitching rubber without the ball. Is this true?

 

[AllSports12]

Had this happen in a game last night. Batter hits a ball to right field. The ball short-hops the RF and gets past him. The batter rounds first base on his way to second base, runs into the 1B, and gets knocked to the ground. By the time the batter gets up off the ground, the RF has the ball, so the batter retreats to first base, again running into the 1B and tripping, eventually getting back to the bag.

We had only 1 umpire, so I approached the umpire, and the first thing I said was, "I know we only have 1 umpire, and maybe you didn't see it, but did you happen to see the obstruction on the first baseman?" He said that he saw it, but that it "wasn't that bad." After a little debate, he said he would not be awarding the batter second base. He didn't give any reasoning, just that "it wasn't that bad" (it WAS that bad).

Question #1: Does the runner HAVE to continue running to the next base after obstruction occurs in order to be awarded the next base? (what if the ump didn't see the obstruction, we can't bank on it being called, like last night, and risk getting thrown out in vain) And is there a rule that addresses the supposed severity of the impediment? Or is it black-and-white - either it happened or it didn't? Does it come into play whether or not the runner would have had a realistic shot at getting to the next base? (the ump didn't use any of these as arguments, I just want to know for my own knowledge)

What you describe (twice in one play) is classic obstruction by F3. At the end of this play the runner should have been awarded 2nd base. I could see an instance where while returning to first, an umpire could rule that obstruction did not occur...... the second part of your play is a HTBT (had to be there) situation.

Question #2 (new topic): Once an umpire calls a ball or strike, is there any grace period in which he can change his call? Scenario: Full count, 2 outs. Pitch is called strike 3. Catcher tosses the ball toward the mound, and half our team is off the field, and then the umpire changes his call to a ball, and the batter gets to first base. Thankfully the batter didn't take 2B. (yes, same ump)

Once the pitch is called...... the pitch is called, except in situations where the defense requests the plate umpire check with the base umpire on a checked swing. There is no provision in the rules to change a call from ball to strike or vice-versa.

Question #3: Does your answer to any of the questions above change slightly knowing that (1) it was a JV game,

While you probably have a newer or less experienced official, the answer is no.

and (2) the team who benefitted from both calls was trailing 17-0 in the 2nd inning?

Again, no.

Where do you draw the line between calling the game by the letter of the law and adjusting it to fit the competitiveness of the game?

In a blowout when it is clear that one team is and will continue to dominate, managing the game becomes paramount. We aren't going to abandon the rules, however discretion is involved. (example, losing team is short on pitching and places a non-pitcher on the bump. We aren't going to scrutinize balks as we normally would.)

 

[AllSports12]

Concerning the "Hidden Ball Trick", I have heard that in high school a balk is called if the pitcher is within 5 feet of the pitching rubber without the ball. Is this true?

Yes

Rule 6-2 -- Pitching Infractions

Art 5 -- It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate, makes any movement naturally -associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without having the ball

 

[UMU92]

Batter tries to drop down a quick bunt. His foot is clearly out of the box when the bunt occurs. What's the mechanic and rule? Part 2 to this, the batters foot is half out of the box with the heel on the white line. What's the mechanic and ruling on this?

 

[bucksman]

Batter tries to drop down a quick bunt. His foot is clearly out of the box when the bunt occurs. What's the mechanic and rule? Part 2 to this, the batters foot is half out of the box with the heel on the white line. What's the mechanic and ruling on this?

For the first part of the question, the minute the foot is clearly out of the box in contact with the ground and the bat contacts the ball, it is a dead ball with the batter called out. Runners return to the base they were at from the time of the pitch.

If the foot is partially out the box and partially in the box, we have nothing -- unless the foot is in contact with the plate in which case the ball is dead and the batter out no matter if the foot is partially our wholly out the box. Assuming the bat has made contact with the ball.

If the second paragraph is factually inaccurate, please do edit (I'm doing this off memory vs. having the rule book in front of me).

 

[AllSports12]

For the first part of the question, the minute the foot is clearly out of the box in contact with the ground and the bat contacts the ball, it is a dead ball with the batter called out. Runners return to the base they were at from the time of the pitch.

If the foot is partially out the box and partially in the box, we have nothing -- unless the foot is in contact with the plate in which case the ball is dead and the batter out no matter if the foot is partially our wholly out the box. Assuming the bat has made contact with the ball.

If the second paragraph is factually inaccurate, please do edit (I'm doing this off memory vs. having the rule book in front of me).

No need to edit this. It is spot on.

 

[UMU92]

With the elbow pads making their way down to the younger levels, you see more and more kids standing in and having the ball hit them. If a batter's whole body is in the box and a pitch comes in high inside and the batter doesn't move and gets hit in the elbow. You hear a lot of "He has to try to avoid the ball"... I don't think this is correct. Details of this rule for HS?

 

[Smarty2022]

Heard the latest OHSAA Baseball email to Umpires said that some Games are being Played as 3 Balls and 2 Strikes. Basically Starting with 1-1 Count like Beer League Softball. What part of Ohio this been happening in?

 

[bucksman]

With the elbow pads making their way down to the younger levels, you see more and more kids standing in and having the ball hit them. If a batter's whole body is in the box and a pitch comes in high inside and the batter doesn't move and gets hit in the elbow. You hear a lot of "He has to try to avoid the ball"... I don't think this is correct. Details of this rule for HS?

For purposes of practical application, if we have a fastball clearly in the batters box or a back foot breaking ball type scenario, it is not reasonable to expect the batter to move out of the way. On the other hand, if we have a situation where the batter is actively moving a body part to absorb the ball (as opposed to moving the body part to have a "safer" body part hit), then it should be a dead ball and a ball with the batter staying at home plate (or if we have a routine breaking ball where the batter is absorbing it "Roger Dorn" style).

 

[serpico]

Any issue with a deke like this at the high school level?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1784331464148222040

 

[AllSports12]

Any issue with a deke like this at the high school level?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1784331464148222040

Perfectly legal....... and one heck of a heads-up play by F8. (and one large boneheaded play by R3..... as evidenced by the reactions of the 3rd Base coach and the Manager)

 

[AllSports12]

With the elbow pads making their way down to the younger levels, you see more and more kids standing in and having the ball hit them. If a batter's whole body is in the box and a pitch comes in high inside and the batter doesn't move and gets hit in the elbow. You hear a lot of "He has to try to avoid the ball"... I don't think this is correct. Details of this rule for HS?

The rule (7-3-4) states....

"A batter shall not..... permit a pitchede ball to touch him"

Nowhere does it require a batter to move. As @bucksman noted just above, the situation will dictate whether or not the batter's actions/inactions result in being awarded first base or being kept in the box with either a ball or a strike added to the count.

Some examples...

- The pitcher exhibts a nasty, late breaking curveball. The batter reads curveball, realizes late that it's not going to break as anticipated and it "locks him up".... he doesn't move at all. This is a ht by pitch and the batter should be awarded first base.

- The pitcher throws a 57mph pitch that the batter tracks from the hand to his hip with his head and eyes. He had ample opportunity to avoid the pitch, but doesn't. This is a dead bal, but not a hit by pitch. If the ball was out of the strike zone when it hit the batter, a ball is added to the count. Any runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. If the pitch is ball four, the batter is awarded first base.

- The batter seeing the pitch running inside, but not at his body, sticks his knee, elbow, shoulder into the path of the pitch........ This is not a hit by pitch. Add a ball to the count.

- The batter sticks his elbow into the path of the pitch and it hits him while the ball is in the strike zone. This is not a hit by pitch, rather a dead ball and a strike added to the count. If strike, three..... we have an out.

Please note, we should always afford the benefit of the doubt to the hitter. The rule is not designed to penalize the hitter because the pitcher is wild in his delivery. However, the use of the protection equipment has evolved into situations where the hitter is trying to benefit when he could have avoided contact.