The future of EdChoice

[gobluetom]

I agree with you on the decks being stacked against government schools.
A lot of good points for sure, the breakdown of the family structure and a lot of government overreach(truancy law), have negatively impacted the taxpayers., schools and communities.

Just not sure dumping more and more money into schools is the solution.

 

[cincifbfan]

I agree with you on the decks being stacked against government schools.
A lot of good points for sure, the breakdown of the family structure and a lot of government overreach(truancy law), have negatively impacted the taxpayers., schools and communities.

Just not sure dumping more and more money into schools is the solution.

I never said to dump more money, but taking money away isn't going to help either, especially since the kids that leave are typically the least expensive to educate and typically the brightest ones in the school. It only exacerbates the problem.

 

[aged jock]

I never said to dump more money, but taking money away isn't going to help either, especially since the kids that leave are typically the least expensive to educate and typically the brightest ones in the school. It only exacerbates the problem.

I see. They’re the smartest ones, but do worse on standardized tests. Consistency of talking points isn’t your strength.

 

[aged jock]

You are correct with the many issues being medical, but public schools have to educate them regardless, it's federal law. These are the issues that privates don't have to deal with and why their test scores are higher and cost to educate lower. If you were to compare simar types of students (race, Socioeconomic status, IQ, etc.) Test scores are pretty much the same no matter what school.

Kids are taught English but interpreters are still needed to communicate with them but more importantly their families, again federal law.

You have an issue with police officers at schools? Why is that? They are there for safety. A police officer and medal detector s would've prevented a tragedy at LaSalle years back.

Look, I'm not saying every school is great. But the deck is stacked against the public schools Ina way that most can't even begin to understand. Nationwide, about 1 in 10 students requires special education services. In many low economic areas that number regularly increases to 25%-30%.

Lastly, did you also know that no public school can permanently expell any student? They must be educated no matter how terrible the behavior. Did you also know that Ohio de-criminalized truancy? Kids don't go to school and the courts don't fine or punish families anymore. Guess what, attendance has gone down significantly since that law was passed, but the schools are still held accountable for teaching that student.

When I say the deck is stacked against public schools, it is. The legislature has done everything possible to make actual teaching in public schools as difficult as humanly possible.

So my kid is forced to stay in such a situation because I’m too poor to send her to private school, where they don’t have such obstacles to teaching?

 

[ringer2]

So my kid is forced to stay in such a situation because I’m too poor to send her to private school, where they don’t have such obstacles to teaching?

Exactly. Which is why the teacher unions hate edchoice. It is a threat to the monopoly they have on the system.

 

[cincifbfan]

I see. They’re the smartest ones, but do worse on standardized tests. Consistency of talking points isn’t your strength.

This is perfectly consistent. You do know it is possible for the same kids to test worse right? It happens all the time, and this points to the private schools not really doing what is best for those voucher students, which again proves my point. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[cincifbfan]

So my kid is forced to stay in such a situation because I’m too poor to send her to private school, where they don’t have such obstacles to teaching?

So you think that if a school needs special education teachers, interpreters and such that it is a bad situation? Wow, talk about how not the actual real world works. You come across these people all day in your every day life as they all become adults. You should teach your child to embrace all of these obstacles and work through them.

As was already mentioned, parental and familial support is the best way to ensure that your child succeeds, no matter where he/she goes to school. If your child wants to be educated, he/she will be at any school. If that student overcame significant obstacles along the way in school, then they will be better equipped for the real world.

 

[TCSoup]

So you think that if a school needs special education teachers, interpreters and such that it is a bad situation? Wow, talk about how not the actual real world works. You come across these people all day in your every day life as they all become adults. You should teach your child to embrace all of these obstacles and work through them.

As was already mentioned, parental and familial support is the best way to ensure that your child succeeds, no matter where he/she goes to school. If your child wants to be educated, he/she will be at any school. If that student overcame significant obstacles along the way in school, then they will be better equipped for the real world.

You obviously have never stepped foot in a Inner City Catholic HS . My Son went to a Suburban Private Grade school with a bunch of obnoxious spoiled rich Parents and Kids . Nothing but clicks and bullying Girls and Boys. That all changed when the vast majority ended up at the Feeder Private HS that happened to be located in the Hood .
When they stepped on Campus and into class it was many of them's first ever one on one actual interaction with people of Race. African Americans, Hispanics, Orientals, Ect. They had to learn to overcome a great majority of Society's Prejudices and learn what the real world was like in the Hallways , In the Class room and on the field of Play. Many of the kids from the Inner City Feeder Schools struggled with the Language and the Course Loads. Many of them were Voucher Kids. Black , White , Oriental and Hispanic. You might not realize kids attending Private Feeder Schools that are in a Failing Public Schools District could still qualify for Voucher assistance.
Point is there are kids from all walks of life in these buildings and it provides for a whole new Life experience for all involved. My Son ended having Black and Hispanic best friends who some he helped with School Work, and went to the Prom with a Oriental Young Lady.
If your impression that these Schools are some type of Utopia you are misinformed Same struggles with being a Teenager as every where else.
Trust me any monies that follow these kids to Private Schools is very well used Tax Money. Generally those Voucher Amounts don't come anywhere near covering the total cost of their Education or Tuition Cost. So that money has to come from somewhere in the form of Scholarship monies donated by Alumni or Fund Raisers to help pay the Bills.
MY son played 3 Sports and rarely rode a bus to any games until his Senior year. The mode of transportation was Volunteer Parents driving. A handful of Parents usually had to provide Transportation, Food and Water to many of the Kids because their parents couldn't either afford it or were disinterested in helping other kids even their own.
So again just stop with the complaining and blaming the Privates for something completely out of their control.
We don't complain that our Tax Dollars pay for continuing Education for Public School teachers up to and including a Master Degree . Which enables them to make a lot more money, but really rarely helps them become better High School Teachers.

 

[aged jock]

This is perfectly consistent. You do know it is possible for the same kids to test worse right? It happens all the time, and this points to the private schools not really doing what is best for those voucher students, which again proves my point. Thank you for pointing that out.

It’s not consistent at all. You can’t say private schools take the best students, and also say they do worse on tests. Private schools consistently do a great job of preparing good students for tests (and life, for that matter). They generally are not good at vocational and special needs instruction.

But no place is a perfect fit for everybody. That’s why God made parents. If parents determine that a private school is better for their kid but they can’t afford it, why would you condemn them to a school that’s not a good fit for them, just because you think it’s fine for you?

 

[eastisbest]

Trust me any monies that follow these kids to Private Schools is very well used Tax Money.

The data says otherwise. It's already been said, posted, and repeated so again, those attending rivate school on voucher that take the state tests are generally doing WORSE. WORSE in the private school, not better.

Fact. It's in the state data, all you have to do is take the time to look for it.

I'm glad it worked for your kid but it's still a pick and choose situation with biased results. Since we're talking "mosts" and "personal experiences" most of the private school teachers I know couldn't hack teaching if they couldn't pick and choose who they teach and they admit such.

Unless that private school is open or I'd accept purely lottery enrolled and meeting the same mandates as the government schools, they should not be getting money designed for ALL GODS children. That money is needed. These kids are coming in from no homes, no heat, no food, violence around them. That money is needed by schools whose practices can be observed and regulated.

"Private" means private. It's exclusion. They've dumped and are continually dumping their elementaries for the more prominent and market worthy high schools. They seem to have no problem taking "public kids" at that stage. Many of the private schools are so old they should have LONG AGO been fully vested, presuming they did such a good job in educating those alums would have desired to do so . But they are not. They failed in their business and they're failing in their mission.

The only dog I have in this fight is that kids from all walks have education in place needed to help them overcome their environment on a reasonably equal footing. I don't care who provides it as long as they're equitable about who they'll provide it too. They can have my taxes. Otherwise, no. Private schools are not fitting the bill. Open the elementaries. Open to all kids. Take the state tests and report. You can have my tax money. Heck, do well and you can have my money. But it's not happening in the schools run by private interests. Not here. Not in most parts of the state.

 

[ringer2]

The data says otherwise. It's already been said, posted, and repeated so again, those attending rivate school on voucher that take the state tests are generally doing WORSE. WORSE in the private school, not better.

Fact. It's in the state data, all you have to do is take the time to look for it.

Please provide a link to such data. Because 1) it would rebut the constant argument on here that private school play by different rules if you are able to compare apples to apples test scores and 2) I don’t believe those scores show what you claim they are showing.

 

[ringer2]

For anyone wishing to know how voucher students are ACTUALLY doing in their private schools, read this.

New EdChoice data highlights academic success

Voucher program data is starting to emerge in Ohio, and everyone is taking notice.

fordhaminstitute.org

 

[ringer2]

And for anyone wanting to know the ACTUAL fiscal effects on public schools, read this.

https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Fiscal-Effects-of-School-Vouchers-by-Martin-Lueken.pdf

 

[cincifbfan]

For anyone wishing to know how voucher students are ACTUALLY doing in their private schools, read this.

New EdChoice data highlights academic success

Voucher program data is starting to emerge in Ohio, and everyone is taking notice.

fordhaminstitute.org

Wow, you chose an article from 2014 which used 2013 data. If you use the 2018-2019 data and compare the scores to all of the new schools that are suddenly failing you see that the voucher students perform worse then their public counterparts from now suddenly failing schools.

 

[ringer2]

Wow, you chose an article from 2014 which used 2013 data. If you use the 2018-2019 data and compare the scores to all of the new schools that are suddenly failing you see that the voucher students perform worse then their public counterparts from now suddenly failing schools.

That’s simply not true. Never has been. You are making the exact same mistake that the dispatch article made that the Fordham institute points out. True in 2014. True in 2020.

And the mere fact that you were claiming to have such an apples to apples comparison, refutes your argument that private schools are not playing by the same rules.

 

[ogealbhain]

From the ODE website: "Note: There is an important difference when comparing state test results between students in public and non-public schools. Public districts and schools have an opportunity to review test results and can make corrections before publication in the Ohio School Report Card system. Non-public schools do not have an opportunity to review and request corrections to their test results before publication. "

 

[taximama24]

Ultimately the reason Ohio's system for school funding has been declared unconstitutional three times in the past two decades and still isn't fixed, and the reason EdChoice is continuously evolving, is because neither are as simple as the pinhole view the few posters who keep claiming "same funds, same test" see it through.

Charter schools. They are public schools. They have admission criteria, they selectively choose their students. They do not take the same state mandated tests as traditional public schools (their charter allows them to designate alternative testing, just as a private school does). Many of them have math and reading proficiency levels in single digits (Africentric in Columbus built an entirely new state of the art campus on public tax dollars, yet is a charter school not a traditional public school, it requires you to have AA heritigage to get in, yet their math proficiency hovers about 5%). If you have no issue fully funding charter schools with public tax dollars for the selective students they serve that are not tested with the same public school tests, how do you have an argument in funding a voucher for a student to use at a private school?

Taxpayers also fund healthcare plans for public school teachers, yet if those teachers don't like the doctors in their network or don't feel they are best able to treat a specific healthcare issue they are faced with (cancer, etc) they aren't just stuck with it, they can go out of network to the doctor of their choice (they could even find a better doctor than the ones in my plan that I can afford with the money I have left after playing for their plan) and their taxpayer funded healthcare will still contribute a portion as an out of network benefit. According to your theory, shouldn't all teachers have to see the same doctors because "same funds, same treatment." Do they owe the taxpayers statistics on the doctor they are choosing to see in order to justify the use of taxpayer funds to put towards an out of network benefit?

What you are preaching doesn't translate beyond your "private/public" "same, same" bias or you would have solved all of Ohio's educaiton problems by now, its clear your issue is simply a hatred of private schools (and from your posts it sounds like parochial specifically) and that prevents you from being able to objectively argue for an actual resolution. For what its worth, I don't think EdChoice is the answer either, and I think it was much closer before the latest iteration (I don't think people who have chosen parochial schools for years and years should have all of a sudden gotten the vouchers last year just because a public district they never stepped foot in or ever intended to go to was failing). But moving away from the narrow minded "same same" argument, its just unrealistic to think that its ever going to make sense to expect a private school that has a majority of parents paying tuition and just a few receiving a voucher to follow the same curriculum and testing mandates that public schools follow. If there is no difference so you can have your "same, same" than nobody should be paying tuition, so what you are essentially arguing is for every private school to make the change to designated charter school. That will cost you a whole lot more as a taxpayer because you will now be fully funding the entire school and they still won't have to take everyone based on their charter designation nor take the same state mandated tests. So then you have a much much bigger problem and maybe should think beyond just "same funds, same tests" if you actually want a real solution.

 

[cincifbfan]

Ultimately the reason Ohio's system for school funding has been declared unconstitutional three times in the past two decades and still isn't fixed, and the reason EdChoice is continuously evolving, is because neither are as simple as the pinhole view the few posters who keep claiming "same funds, same test" see it through.

Charter schools. They are public schools. They have admission criteria, they selectively choose their students. They do not take the same state mandated tests as traditional public schools (their charter allows them to designate alternative testing, just as a private school does). Many of them have math and reading proficiency levels in single digits (Africentric in Columbus built an entirely new state of the art campus on public tax dollars, yet is a charter school not a traditional public school, it requires you to have AA heritigage to get in, yet their math proficiency hovers about 5%). If you have no issue fully funding charter schools with public tax dollars for the selective students they serve that are not tested with the same public school tests, how do you have an argument in funding a voucher for a student to use at a private school?

I agree that Charters are a disaster. When you mix profits and k-12 education, nothing good comes from that mix.

 

[ogealbhain]

I agree that Charters are a disaster. When you mix profits and k-12 education, nothing good comes from that mix.

"Our findings show urban charter schools in the aggregate provide significantly higher levels of annual growth in both math and reading compared to their TPS peers. Specifically, students enrolled in urban charter schools experience 0.055 standard deviations (s.d.’s) greater growth in math and 0.039 s.d.’s greater growth in reading per year than their matched peers in TPS. These results translate to urban charter students receiving the equivalent of roughly 40 days of additional learning per year in math and 28 additional days of learning per year in reading. "

http://urbancharters.stanford.edu/summary.php

There are horrible charter schools and great charter schools and a whole bunch in between....just like traditional public schools.

 

[ringer2]

I agree that Charters are a disaster. When you mix profits and k-12 education, nothing good comes from that mix.

Once again, you are badly misinformed. There are no for-profit charter schools in Ohio.

The myth of Ohio's "for profit" charter school system

Since the inception of Ohio’s charter school program in 1998, gallons of ink have been spilled documenting the missteps of a few charter operators.

fordhaminstitute.org

 

[cincifbfan]

Once again, you are badly misinformed. There are no for-profit charter schools in Ohio.

The myth of Ohio's "for profit" charter school system

Since the inception of Ohio’s charter school program in 1998, gallons of ink have been spilled documenting the missteps of a few charter operators.

fordhaminstitute.org

Umm, except there are. National Heritage Academies is a for profit charter school corporation based out of Michigan. They operate 10 schools in Ohio. They even mention that in the article, and their schools may have succeeded in Michigan, but are abysmal performers in Ohio. NHA has had many controversies and legal issues due to their shady educational and business practices.

 

[ringer2]

Umm, except there are. National Heritage Academies is a for profit charter school corporation based out of Michigan. They operate 10 schools in Ohio. They even mention that in the article, and their schools may have succeeded in Michigan, but are abysmal performers in Ohio. NHA has had many controversies and legal issues due to their shady educational and business practices.

From the article:

“First, it’s inaccurate to call charter schools for-profits. Just like most museums, libraries, and hospitals, charter schools are organized as nonprofit organizations. In Ohio, all charter schools are officially considered public benefit corporations, which under state law must be a nonprofit entity. Moreover, charter schools are public schools—and, again, state law makes this abundantly clear: “A community school [a.k.a. a charter school] created under this chapter is a public school.” As public schools, charters do not charge tuition, are open to all students, and are held accountable for results using the same report card system as districts. Charter governing boards have the ability—should they so choose—to contract with management companies (or “operators”), some of which are for-profits. Though charter boards may hire (and can subsequently fire) for-profit organizations to run their daily operations, the schools themselves are always nonprofit.”

Further, you argue that we ought to revoke funding for poorly performing public charter schools, but you argue AGAINST redirecting a small portion of funding for poorly performing public districted schools. No consistency to your argument.

 

[cincifbfan]

From the article:

“First, it’s inaccurate to call charter schools for-profits. Just like most museums, libraries, and hospitals, charter schools are organized as nonprofit organizations. In Ohio, all charter schools are officially considered public benefit corporations, which under state law must be a nonprofit entity. Moreover, charter schools are public schools—and, again, state law makes this abundantly clear: “A community school [a.k.a. a charter school] created under this chapter is a public school.” As public schools, charters do not charge tuition, are open to all students, and are held accountable for results using the same report card system as districts. Charter governing boards have the ability—should they so choose—to contract with management companies (or “operators”), some of which are for-profits. Though charter boards may hire (and can subsequently fire) for-profit organizations to run their daily operations, the schools themselves are always nonprofit.”

Further, you argue that we ought to revoke funding for poorly performing public charter schools, but you argue AGAINST redirecting a small portion of funding for poorly performing public districted schools. No consistency to your argument.

I read the article.

You keep saying I've been inconsistent, that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[aged jock]

For anyone wishing to know how voucher students are ACTUALLY doing in their private schools, read this.

New EdChoice data highlights academic success

Voucher program data is starting to emerge in Ohio, and everyone is taking notice.

fordhaminstitute.org

So, at least the best students in public schools who transfer to private schools really do better than the students at the public schools they left. Typical of public schools to lie about private, and particularly religious, schools. That applies in athletics and academics.
While top students can excel in most publi

 

[ringer2]

I read the article.

You keep saying I've been inconsistent, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Well, it is inconsistent to argue that ALL funding ought to be pulled from poor performing public charter schools while simultaneously arguing that a very small portion of funding to poor performing district public schools should not be redirected to scholarships.

You also don’t seem to have a problem with the performance criteria that judges charters to be ineffective but you do have a problem when those are applied to public districts? Got it. ?

 

[cincifbfan]

Well, it is inconsistent to argue that ALL funding ought to be pulled from poor performing public charter schools while simultaneously arguing that a very small portion of funding to poor performing district public schools should not be redirected to scholarships.

You also don’t seem to have a problem with the performance criteria that judges charters to be ineffective but you do have a problem when those are applied to public districts? Got it. ?

Ok, twist words much? I have issues with ALL schools that take money from local school districts. Charter schools cost local districts way more than EdChoice. Trying to figure out what exactly is inconsistent with any of that.

I

 

[ringer2]

Ok, twist words much? I have issues with ALL schools that take money from local school districts. Charter schools cost local districts way more than EdChoice. Trying to figure out what exactly is inconsistent with any of that.

I

I’m just asking that you play by the same rules. If public charter schools should have to give up their money because they are failing, then so should public districts. If the performance criteria is sufficient to determine that a public charter is failing, then that same criteria should be sufficient to determine that a public district is failing.

 

[D4fan]

Once again, you are badly misinformed. There are no for-profit charter schools in Ohio.

The myth of Ohio's "for profit" charter school system

Since the inception of Ohio’s charter school program in 1998, gallons of ink have been spilled documenting the missteps of a few charter operators.

fordhaminstitute.org

I would like to see a study that looks at all kids who take the test at their public school, then immediately transfer to a charter school the following year. How did these kids perform vs, their peers at the schools they left? If they were average or below, and now at the charter they perform average or higher; great evidence that the charters are helping.

On the other hand, I suspect interested parents have above average students and the charters are getting the upper level performers from the public schools they desire to escape.

 

[Smalls]

The data says otherwise. It's already been said, posted, and repeated so again, those attending rivate school on voucher that take the state tests are generally doing WORSE. WORSE in the private school, not better.

Fact. It's in the state data, all you have to do is take the time to look for it.

I would love for there to be more transparency in what goes into the numbers and how they are reported. It seems like both sides like to cherry pick the stats that fit their argument without full disclosure on what goes into the numbers.

If I am not mistaken the the numbers posted earlier in the thread for Washington Local Schools for example was comparing just the EdChoice students scores at the private school vs the the entire student population at the public school. No different than the argument against the current scorecard being used to determine failing school districts.

I am in agreement that the current scorecard assures failure in low income areas and is not an accurate picture of the job being done in the school or the potential outcomes of students that take their education serious.

On a side note many of my son's closest friends are/were EdChoice students and to a person mention (without being prompted) that they are grateful for the opportunity the program provided and were not sure they would have been able to get to where they are had they continued down the original paths that they were on. I have watched them in tears thanking teachers, student bodies, coaches etc. for pushing, believing in them and providing them a path that they didn't think was available to them prior to attending private school.

At the end of the day the most important measure is the positive outcomes for individual students and I have seen a lot of positive outcomes as a result of EdChoice as measured by the individual families' outcomes/satisfaction.

I'll admit I have not had time to read the other links/articles posted in the thread to see if they are more transparent with their numbers.

With all that said I think their should be separation of private and public. If you believe your mission is just and don't want the government involvement don't take their money. Find a way to raise the $$$ yourself.

The college I went to fought and won a long legal battle because the government wanted to force them to accept their money and with it their rules. They have been able to replace all federal and state funds including 100% of any potential GI bill $$$ with private sources. It is the same conversation I have with my kids, if you don't like my rules you can go out and make it on your own.

 

[irish_buffalo]

I would love for there to be more transparency in what goes into the numbers and how they are reported. It seems like both sides like to cherry pick the stats that fit their argument without full disclosure on what goes into the numbers.

If I am not mistaken the the numbers posted earlier in the thread for Washington Local Schools for example was comparing just the EdChoice students scores at the private school vs the the entire student population at the public school. No different than the argument against the current scorecard being used to determine failing school districts.

I am in agreement that the current scorecard assures failure in low income areas and is not an accurate picture of the job being done in the school or the potential outcomes of students that take their education serious.

On a side note many of my son's closest friends are/were EdChoice students and to a person mention (without being prompted) that they are grateful for the opportunity the program provided and were not sure they would have been able to get to where they are had they continued down the original paths that they were on. I have watched them in tears thanking teachers, student bodies, coaches etc. for pushing, believing in them and providing them a path that they didn't think was available to them prior to attending private school.

At the end of the day the most important measure is the positive outcomes for individual students and I have seen a lot of positive outcomes as a result of EdChoice as measured by the individual families' outcomes/satisfaction.

I'll admit I have not had time to read the other links/articles posted in the thread to see if they are more transparent with their numbers.

With all that said I think their should be separation of private and public. If you believe your mission is just and don't want the government involvement don't take their money. Find a way to raise the $$$ yourself.

The college I went to fought and won a long legal battle because the government wanted to force them to accept their money and with it their rules. They have been able to replace all federal and state funds including 100% of any potential GI bill $$$ with private sources. It is the same conversation I have with my kids, if you don't like my rules you can go out and make it on your own.

Smalls, you have the ability to see this for what it is and do a great job of setting aside bias as I know you have experienced both sides of the fence.

I am not anti EdChoice but am simply anti EdChoice as it is currently written which I believe is your point.

Regardless, the kids that you speak of and those stories are great and well deserved. However, would it not be nice for everyone to have that chance? I look at a kid like Little Anderson. He was an EdChoice kid. His mom is a great woman. She did not have the means to send her son to private school and therefore took advantage of EdChoice. You took one more "good" kid and parent from an already struggling district. At some point all that will be left is the undesirables. Who will educate these kids? Or at least try? Not the privates. I will NEVER fault a family for doing what is best for them but there has to be a level playing field. You cannot point to a public school as failing because you poached all of their talented kids. And keep in mind I have spent time coaching at city public schools. Parental influence is very lacking.

Still, you cannot measure one entity by certain standards, deem that entity as failing, and then allow kids to use vouchers to attend a school that is not measured by those same standards. That is numero uno what is wrong with EdChoice. Once the playing field is level I'm good even though there are still flaws.