The future of EdChoice

gobluetom said:
Your kids can go to school where they want, as can mine or anyone elses.

You are one arrogant SOB, to think you have the right to my tax dollars, to send
someone else's kids to the school of your choice, LOL
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Huh? How am I using your tax dollars to send someone else's kid to a school I chose?
 
People already complain that Catholic schools are too expensive and the faculty are not even paid that well at Catholic schools. Catholic schools cannot accommodate all the students that cincifbfan and Buffalo keep talking about because they cannot afford to and do not have the resources such as teacher aides that specialize in working with such students. D4 already explained early in the thread why it costs a lot more for publics to educate students because they have students with severe learning disabilities and severe physical limitations. If the privates took all students, the tuition would need to be raised so high at private schools that most privates would have to close because families would not be able to afford the tuition that would need to be charged to accommodate and educate students with severe disabilities. I wish that privates could accommodate such students but the money and the resources needed are not there. It is about 10-14 thousand dollars per year to attend most Catholic high schools now which is hard to afford for many families and that tuition amount would have to go even higher to accommodate all students. The grade school at my parish costs around 5K for one student to attend per year. We are losing students due to the tuition cost now and facing declining enrollment. In order to accommodate all students, the tuition would probably be 7-8K per year and the school would not be able to stay open because most could not afford it.
 
cincifbfan said:
What did I make up? We are talking about Ohio and I said I don't know of any school locally that uses this test.

I know it's really easy to change the narrative however.

Play by the same rules and you get to have the same money, simple.
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And it's easy for government schools to manipulate that narrative also.

The government eff's up the schooling system, just like it does almost everything else it gets involved in. yet you defend this?
 
cincifbfan said:
Huh? How am I using your tax dollars to send someone else's kid to a school I chose?
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You are trying to dictate how my tax dollars are used.
I want my tax dollars to go to school choice, not what you think someone's choice should be.
Let people choose where there kids go, not where you want them to go.
 
gobluetom said:
Don't care about government run schools, I care about children and their parent's right to choose what is best for them.

Title IX discriminates against females, because it implies that they are athletically inferior to men.
We all know men and women are equal, so let's have open tryouts(without all of this gender definition nonsense), and let the most qualified individuals make teams.

BTW, if you have to resort to name calling, you've already lost.
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Title IX discriminates against women?

You must like being on the wrong side of every argument.
 
TCSoup said:
We are not saying the Public Schools are failing the State is. we all understand that. Why should they not be able to take their own tax dollars with them. ? Those buses you speak of are part of the Taxes we pay. Its funny the 1st time a School Levy Fails they start strong arming the Private Schools Family. Accusing them of not voting for the Levies. And the very 1st thing they do is stop the Transportation to School . We had it happen to us twice.
You can't get around the fact and you know this the Privates are meeting or exceeding those BS standards and I speak only of the Catholic HS.
Every Feeder School into my HS except 2 Teach English as a 2nd language . So Immigrants of all Nations isn't exclusive to Public Schools my friend. The inner city and immigration affects everyone in Education.
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Yet another post that will not acknowledge that the state tests public schools, seems them failing, allows people to take a voucher and use it on a school not tested in the same manner.
 
gobluetom said:
I do know for a fact that government schools have been failing children for decades.
No report card can offset what is so visible in society each day.
And I don't care about arbitrary standards, I care about school choice by the only people that matter in the equation, the parents and their child(ren)
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Wow. I know plenty that were educated just fine at public schools.

What is visable in society each day?

Tom, your lack of understanding that the state is mandated to educate kids by law and therefore must abide by certain perameters.

So, abolish public schools tomorrow and send every kid to a private and guess what will happen?
 
gobluetom said:
And it's easy for government schools to manipulate that narrative also.

The government eff's up the schooling system, just like it does almost everything else it gets involved in. yet you defend this?
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How can government schools manipulate the narrative when every student is tested and the results are made public?

Also, I 100% agree with you that the government messes up the schooling system, that's how so many are deemed failing. If you actually set foot into the vast majority of these failing schools you would be blown away by the awesome things they are doing.

So you think the answer is government getting involved in private schools with vouchers?
 
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ringer2 said:
Why should your kid get money that is allocated for someone else’s kid?
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Wow, talk about having reading comprehension problems. I never said my kid should get money allocated for someone else's child. I said it's my business when it takes money away from my child's school. Please try to follow along. The money that is allocated for the public school should not go to a private school. Once again, if that child and their parents choose to go the private route, they may choose to do so and pay. Life is all about choices. If you don't like your public school, pay for a private, or move to a district that you do like. It's a pretty simple concept.
 
eastside_purple said:
So no proof. You just don’t like the results. Got it. lol.
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Each voucher takes a small amount of money from your kid’s school, but it also relieves your school of a much larger amount of expense. That’s a huge benefit to your kid’s school! Why would you be against that?
 
cincifbfan said:
Wow, talk about having reading comprehension problems. I never said my kid should get money allocated for someone else's child. I said it's my business when it takes money away from my child's school. Please try to follow along. The money that is allocated for the public school should not go to a private school. Once again, if that child and their parents choose to go the private route, they may choose to do so and pay. Life is all about choices. If you don't like your public school, pay for a private, or move to a district that you do like. It's a pretty simple concept.
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But that’s exactly what your saying. You complain that @gotomblue taking his kid to a private school on a voucher is taking money away from your kid’s school. The voucher Tom is taking is money allocated for his kid. But you want that money going to your school even though it’s allocated for his kid.
 
ringer2 said:
But that’s exactly what your saying. You complain that @gotomblue taking his kid to a private school on a voucher is taking money away from your kid’s school. The voucher Tom is taking is money allocated for his kid. But you want that money going to your school even though it’s allocated for his kid.
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But he will maintain it is his money. Thats how this thread started and he rebuked that then. He will just give you a BS answer. If he took anytime at all as there are many examples already in this thread he ignores there is plenty of information on the Internet with ACT , SAT , Graduation Rates , Kids that go to College after Graduation and other Test Scores from Private Schools. Especially The Private Catholics. He just doesn't want to admit it. Or that him and Irish are Wrong.
 
TCSoup said:
But he will maintain it is his money. Thats how this thread started and he rebuked that then. He will just give you a BS answer. If he took anytime at all as there are many examples already in this thread he ignores there is plenty of information on the Internet with ACT , SAT , Graduation Rates , Kids that go to College after Graduation and other Test Scores from Private Schools. Especially The Private Catholics. He just doesn't want to admit it. Or that him and Irish are Wrong.
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I have done nothing but provide facts whereas that are proven. Once again, I never said it's my money, it's also not any child's money, it's the school's.

Yes, privates have higher ACT, SAT scores and graduation rates, I never disputed that or ignored it. Ask yourself why that is. It's because they get to pick their kids and actually hold students accountable for things like attendance and behavior, something the public schools cannot do according to law.

Lastly, the privates "self report" many stats like graduation rate. Where's the transparency in that? Why are the private schools so afraid to take every single child? Why are they afraid to never kick any child out of school? Why are they afraid to not abide by the same report card as the public schools? It's because the truth would actually come out that the difference in quality isn't as great as they want you to believe and in many cases worse. Open it all up for everyone to see. But no, we will just get more excuses from the private backers about how they simply don't have to.
 
cincifbfan said:
I have done nothing but provide facts whereas that are proven. Once again, I never said it's my money, it's also not any child's money, it's the school's.

Yes, privates have higher ACT, SAT scores and graduation rates, I never disputed that or ignored it. Ask yourself why that is. It's because they get to pick their kids and actually hold students accountable for things like attendance and behavior, something the public schools cannot do according to law.

Lastly, the privates "self report" many stats like graduation rate. Where's the transparency in that? Why are the private schools so afraid to take every single child? Why are they afraid to never kick any child out of school? Why are they afraid to not abide by the same report card as the public schools? It's because the truth would actually come out that the difference in quality isn't as great as they want you to believe and in many cases worse. Open it all up for everyone to see. But no, we will just get more excuses from the private backers about how they simply don't have to.
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The bolded above is the heart of the problem.

“Education is free. Freedom of education shall be enjoyed under the condition fixed by law and under the supreme control of the state” - Karl Marx, Das Kapital
 
cincifbfan said:
Wow, talk about having reading comprehension problems. I never said my kid should get money allocated for someone else's child. I said it's my business when it takes money away from my child's school. Please try to follow along. The money that is allocated for the public school should not go to a private school. Once again, if that child and their parents choose to go the private route, they may choose to do so and pay. Life is all about choices. If you don't like your public school, pay for a private, or move to a district that you do like. It's a pretty simple concept.
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Yeah, relocate if your local school is crap MFers! Pretty simple.
 
cincifbfan said:
I have done nothing but provide facts whereas that are proven. Once again, I never said it's my money, it's also not any child's money, it's the school's.

Yes, privates have higher ACT, SAT scores and graduation rates, I never disputed that or ignored it. Ask yourself why that is. It's because they get to pick their kids and actually hold students accountable for things like attendance and behavior, something the public schools cannot do according to law.

Lastly, the privates "self report" many stats like graduation rate. Where's the transparency in that? Why are the private schools so afraid to take every single child? Why are they afraid to never kick any child out of school? Why are they afraid to not abide by the same report card as the public schools? It's because the truth would actually come out that the difference in quality isn't as great as they want you to believe and in many cases worse. Open it all up for everyone to see. But no, we will just get more excuses from the private backers about how they simply don't have to.
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The transparency is they do it and most Schools publish the Scholarship Monies earned and the students that received them.
They are Private and they do Kick kids out. You FAIL to realize they are willing to take any Student that applies , but along with that comes Rules, Responsibilities and TUITION .
The Numbers are out , Do the research and prove otherwise.
If not well then you lose and by a Large Margin. Routed as they say.....
Go down to Lasalle, X or Moe with a Student that is interested in going there. They will be more than willing to show you all the Academic Standards and Scores you want.
You won't because your just to lazy to want to know the truth.
The Truth will set you Free my man.
 
Man what's with all the name calling by the private backers? Wow, I wouldn't expect such vitriol by Catholics. So much for good will in this Lenten Season.

To comment on TCSoup, I have done the research and did prove otherwise. I believe I used Elder and Taylor as a comparison. Taylor is deemed failing, but yet Elder's voucher students tested worse on the state tests. This pattern is found all over the state. To say I'm lazy is an easy cop-out when I have put out more actual verifiable information than anyone else in this thread. The truth has already set me free.
 
eastside_purple said:
You know what’s even more simple? Don’t be a failing school so you don’t risk losing money and students to private schools.
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Not sure how you arrive at this point. Some very successful schools are on the failing list because the state considers every sub group in their assessment of how a school is passing or failing. In our county the school with the highest overall test scores is listed as a failing school. Why? Don't know for sure but have heard their ESL students as a group did not perform well.
 
At the end of the day, each parent should be given a set amount for their own children's education.

Total taxpayer dollars earmarked for education/ total number of students.

The parents can allocate their children's education voucher in whatever way they want.

This takes power away from the school systems and teacher's unions, and places it where it belongs, in the parents hands.
 
gobluetom said:
At the end of the day, each parent should be given a set amount for their own children's education.

Total taxpayer dollars earmarked for education/ total number of students.

The parents can allocate their children's education voucher in whatever way they want.

This takes power away from the school systems and teacher's unions, and places it where it belongs, in the parents hands.
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But not every child costs the same amount to educate. To say there is a large discrepancy is putting it mildly.
 
cincifbfan said:
But not every child costs the same amount to educate. To say there is a large discrepancy is putting it mildly.
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Why is that?

In a lot of cases the most expensive schools are the least effective, Cincinnati Public's for one.
 
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gobluetom said:
Why is that?

In a lot of cases the most expensive schools are the least effective, Cincinnati Public's for one.
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I've commented on this quite a bit. Special education services, hospitalization, counseling services, social workers, security, resource officers, physical and occupational therapists, speech language pathologists, audiologists, aids for students who suffer from seizures, severe autism or cognitive disabilities, blind students, etc. Let's then throw in the cost of interpreters, for each of the languages spoken in CPS, which is dozens (not just Spanish). All of those aren't cheap, especially interpreters, they aren't giving discounts to schools, they are extremely expensive, especially for the very rare languages.

Special education is a huge cost. Clark High School, a CPS school, which is highly respected and considered by many to be the second best under Walnut in CPS, has 13 Special Ed teachers for approximately 700 students grades 7-12. No private schools have a special education population like that.
 
cincifbfan said:
I've commented on this quite a bit. Special education services, hospitalization, counseling services, social workers, security, resource officers, physical and occupational therapists, speech language pathologists, audiologists, aids for students who suffer from seizures, severe autism or cognitive disabilities, blind students, etc. Let's then throw in the cost of interpreters, for each of the languages spoken in CPS, which is dozens (not just Spanish). All of those aren't cheap, especially interpreters, they aren't giving discounts to schools, they are extremely expensive, especially for the very rare languages.

Special education is a huge cost. Clark High School, a CPS school, which is highly respected and considered by many to be the second best under Walnut in CPS, has 13 Special Ed teachers for approximately 700 students grades 7-12. No private schools have a special education population like that.
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No offense, but a lot of these sound like medical issues, not educational ones.

And kids should learn and be taught english, so they don't need interpreters on the taxpayer dime.

I wouldn't want my child attending a school that requires security officers, as i'm sure most parents wouldn't (and EdChoice would allow these kids to be less at risk)

I'm sure a lot of the government school backers, would be glad to continue to pass levies to offset these costs(that would be earmarked only for the items you list).
 
gobluetom said:
No offense, but a lot of these sound like medical issues, not educational ones.

And kids should learn and be taught english, so they don't need interpreters on the taxpayer dime.

I wouldn't want my child attending a school that requires security officers, as i'm sure most parents wouldn't (and EdChoice would allow these kids to be less at risk)

I'm sure a lot of the government school backers, would be glad to continue to pass levies to offset these costs(that would be earmarked only for the items you list).
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You are correct with the many issues being medical, but public schools have to educate them regardless, it's federal law. These are the issues that privates don't have to deal with and why their test scores are higher and cost to educate lower. If you were to compare simar types of students (race, Socioeconomic status, IQ, etc.) Test scores are pretty much the same no matter what school.

Kids are taught English but interpreters are still needed to communicate with them but more importantly their families, again federal law.

You have an issue with police officers at schools? Why is that? They are there for safety. A police officer and medal detector s would've prevented a tragedy at LaSalle years back.

Look, I'm not saying every school is great. But the deck is stacked against the public schools Ina way that most can't even begin to understand. Nationwide, about 1 in 10 students requires special education services. In many low economic areas that number regularly increases to 25%-30%.

Lastly, did you also know that no public school can permanently expell any student? They must be educated no matter how terrible the behavior. Did you also know that Ohio de-criminalized truancy? Kids don't go to school and the courts don't fine or punish families anymore. Guess what, attendance has gone down significantly since that law was passed, but the schools are still held accountable for teaching that student.

When I say the deck is stacked against public schools, it is. The legislature has done everything possible to make actual teaching in public schools as difficult as humanly possible.
 
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