The future of EdChoice

serpico

Well-known member
This is paternalistic nonsense. Do you not trust a parent to make the best decision for their child? The people who ought to be setting the criteria are the parents of each individual child. Every parent in the state ought to be eligible for a scholarship.
You completely sidestepped his point here. His question involved the fairness of not requiring testing of private schools and had zero to do with parental choice.
 

ringer2

Active member
You completely sidestepped his point here. His question involved the fairness of not requiring testing of private schools and had zero to do with parental choice.
First, it is untrue that private schools are not required to test. They are. Students in scholarship take the exact same state tests. All other must take some other standardized test, such as Terra Nova, Stanford, Iowa, etc.

Second, all chartered private school (only chartered privates may take EdChoice students) students just pass the exact same graduation requirements as public schools.

Third, why would the exact same requirements be placed on schools that receiveonly a fraction of their budget from the state compared to those who receive all their funding from public sources? Accountability exists. It just isn’t the same mode of accountability, not does it need to be.
Fourth, my point about parent choice is that THEY should be the ones empowered to determine which schools are best for their child, not some measurements the state cobbles together.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
What constitutes a chartered school? My wife's school has recently claimed chartered status, guess if EdChoice is tied to such title I might know why the recent change. Perhaps they always have been, but never heard the word chartered used until this year by superintendent.
 
Because they do not test the student body but rather just the voucher kids.
However, the EdChoice does not mandate that the privates test the same. If it did, I would not be here arguing against it. If everyone plays by the same rules then so be it, but as it stands it simply is not the case.
You cannot have one entity held to one standard, claiming that they are failing at those standards, and then say it is ok to use taxpayer money to go to another entity that is not measured by those very standards. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
Your definition of "understanding" also appears to be limited. Because it seems pretty clear. When state standards deem a school as failing, and a parent uses the voucher to pursue an alternate education for one child, then taxpayer money goes to another entity to educate that child, and that child continues to be tested and measured by those same state standards while receiving the taxpayer funded voucher at the new institution. The taxpayer money is for that child, the state standards continually measure that child at the new entity, thus the accountability from the new entity for that child, but the taxpayer is not owed anything with regard to the other, privately funded, children.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Your definition of "understanding" also appears to be limited. Because it seems pretty clear. When state standards deem a school as failing, and a parent uses the voucher to pursue an alternate education for one child, then taxpayer money goes to another entity to educate that child, and that child continues to be tested and measured by those same state standards while receiving the taxpayer funded voucher at the new institution. The taxpayer money is for that child, the state standards continually measure that child at the new entity, thus the accountability from the new entity for that child, but the taxpayer is not owed anything with regard to the other, privately funded, children.
Where is the report card data for any private school showing the state test scores to prove said accountability? It sure isn't on ODE's school report card website.
 
The student whom is receiving the voucher is tested with the test that the public schools use, their own performance serves as the accountability that the education they are receiving is meeting or exceeding the state mandated standards they would have been tested with if they were still in the public school. The state can then check the box that for that one child receiving taxpayer funds, the money is not being wasted on a worse education than the one they received in the school the state deemed as failing. That is the purpose of giving them the state tests for public schools even though they are learning in a private school, a direct comparison.

Why should the entire private school for whom the taxpayer is not paying need to be measured using those same state tests if the data for the accountability for that one child being served is already obtainable? What further does that prove than testing the child using the voucher?
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
This is paternalistic nonsense. Do you not trust a parent to make the best decision for their child? The people who ought to be setting the criteria are the parents of each individual child. Every parent in the state ought to be eligible for a scholarship.
That parent still has the choice to live where they want and to pay for their kids to attend a private school just like my parents did.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
And yet you, of course, are free from all bias, amirite?
Fairly close. I am a product of Catholic education grades 1 through 12. I got a great education.

Before politicians push agenda items they send them to ad agency think tanks to come up with slogan's like "EdChoice." It makes it appear that anyone against the legislation is against choice which is deceiving. It is a lot like "Right-to-Work." Right to work has nothing to do with a persons right to go to work but if anyone is against the legislation it appears they are.

EdChoice and it's terrible recent expansion are nothing more than partisan politics aimed at bankrupting public schools in favor of privatization. Period.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
The student whom is receiving the voucher is tested with the test that the public schools use, their own performance serves as the accountability that the education they are receiving is meeting or exceeding the state mandated standards they would have been tested with if they were still in the public school. The state can then check the box that for that one child receiving taxpayer funds, the money is not being wasted on a worse education than the one they received in the school the state deemed as failing. That is the purpose of giving them the state tests for public schools even though they are learning in a private school, a direct comparison.

Why should the entire private school for whom the taxpayer is not paying need to be measured using those same state tests if the data for the accountability for that one child being served is already obtainable? What further does that prove than testing the child using the voucher?
Again, where can I find the information on how the voucher kids are performing at the new private school? Can I compare it to the child's prior performance to make sure he/she actually improved in the new "better" school?
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
First, it is untrue that private schools are not required to test. They are. Students in scholarship take the exact same state tests. All other must take some other standardized test, such as Terra Nova, Stanford, Iowa, etc.

Second, all chartered private school (only chartered privates may take EdChoice students) students just pass the exact same graduation requirements as public schools.

Third, why would the exact same requirements be placed on schools that receiveonly a fraction of their budget from the state compared to those who receive all their funding from public sources? Accountability exists. It just isn’t the same mode of accountability, not does it need to be.
Fourth, my point about parent choice is that THEY should be the ones empowered to determine which schools are best for their child, not some measurements the state cobbles together.
No, it IS true. The private schools ONLY test the voucher kids not everyone and there is a threshold for which this must happen.

FACT: The state grades public schools, deems them as failing in an extremely arbitrarily way, and then allows people to use taxpayer money to attend a private school that is not graded or arbitrarily measured in the same way. You cannot get around this fact.

On top of that, the private schools teachers are not required to abide by the same measurements as their public counterparts, do not have to abide by ADA or Title IX. The public school is mandated to attempt to educate all of God's children, including the disabled and those who show up not speaking English.

And lets not get into the legality of using my property taxes, for my district, to fund a private school outside of that very district.

The entire system is flawed on so many levels it will make your head spin.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
Here is a snippet of how voucher users from a local public school district (Washington Local Schools - Whitmer HS) the very district that they left and claim as "failing." Once the private has more than 10 kids from that district they must test them. However, these stats are not used in any way towards EdChoice.

St. Ursula seems to do ok. Otherwise the public has them beat. So are the private schools failing?

5926

Again, I post this as reference but want to avoid the argument that private schools are inferior because I'm not necessarily saying that and it should not be the argument even though many from the private side get offended and want to go there. The flaws of EdChoice are multiple but it has to do with, again, holding one entity to a set of standards and not holding the beneficiary of EdChoice the same standards. If EdChoice did this there would still be an argument but only in regard to using public property tax dollars from a closed district to fund a private school outside of that district.
 

Smalls

Well-known member
I always like to question numbers;

What test do the numbers above represent?
Do the public school numbers represent all students or just potential "voucher" students?
Do the private school numbers represent all students or just "voucher" students?
How do public schools identify their own students (who have not left their district) who are "voucher" students? By looking at free and reduced lunch applications??? Or is this not comparing apples to apples?
When do they administer the tests?
Do the numbers represent all students 9-12 or just the end result in 12th grade after the students and teachers have done their job?
How can you see growth from one year to the next?
Is there a difference between proficiency tests and end of course exams (OGT) or are they one and the same?
What is the total number of students taking the exams at each school?

Where a student starts, especially if they are a 1st year student in a school is not an accurate representation of what is going on in their new school. I want to see the relationship between where they start and where they finish.
 
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cincifbfan

Well-known member
Private School Average SAT Scores in Ohio (2020)www.privateschoolreview.com › ... › Top Lists › Average SAT Scores

Simple Google Search if you want information on Private Test Scores . Its not like it is some big secret.
Thanks Captain Obvious, except, I wasn't asking for average SAT scores. I am referring to the state graduation tests. That isn't published. I also don't want to just see how the school is doing overall, but how the child that uses the voucher in particular is performing. Being in the new environment, one would think that there would be a DRAMATIC increase in their specific test scores. But, we don't know that because everything in the Private Schools is a gigantic secret.

I'm not anti-private schools; I just want everyone to play by the same rules. I don't think anyone will complain once that happens, and if a private school has a "failing" grade by the state, then they can't have any vouchers.

Just make it all equal and nobody will complain. If you can't see how drastically different the set of rules are, then you need serious help.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
I always like to question numbers;

What test do the numbers above represent?
Do the public school numbers represent all students or just potential "voucher" students?
Do the private school numbers represent all students or just "voucher" students?
How do public schools identify their own students (who have not left their district) who are "voucher" students? By looking at free and reduced lunch applications??? Or is this not comparing apples to apples?
When do they administer the tests?
Do the numbers represent all students 9-12 or just the end result in 12th grade after the students and teachers have done their job?
How can you see growth from one year to the next?
Is there a difference between proficiency tests and end of course exams (OGT) or are they one and the same?
What is the total number of students taking the exams at each school?

Where a student starts, especially if they are a 1st year student in a school is not an accurate representation of what is going on in their new school. I want to see the relationship between where they start and where they finish.
Excellent point! Many of the "failing" schools have a HUGE portion of their students that just moved in, or are moving out (transient population). But they are counted the same. It would blow your mind if you saw how many different schools many kids go to each year.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
I always like to question numbers;

What test do the numbers above represent?
Do the public school numbers represent all students or just potential "voucher" students?
Do the private school numbers represent all students or just "voucher" students?
How do public schools identify their own students (who have not left their district) who are "voucher" students? By looking at free and reduced lunch applications??? Or is this not comparing apples to apples?
When do they administer the tests?
Do the numbers represent all students 9-12 or just the end result in 12th grade after the students and teachers have done their job?
How can you see growth from one year to the next?
Is there a difference between proficiency tests and end of course exams (OGT) or are they one and the same?
What is the total number of students taking the exams at each school?

Where a student starts, especially if they are a 1st year student in a school is not an accurate representation of what is going on in their new school. I want to see the relationship between where they start and where they finish.
It is based on kids using EdChoice from the home district vs. the existing kids from that district. It certainly paints a picture but I was reluctant to do so because the major flaws of EdChoice have little to do with test scores and more to do with applicable standards to one entity over the other.

I know you get that.
 

eastside_purple

Well-known member
Again, where can I find the information on how the voucher kids are performing at the new private school? Can I compare it to the child's prior performance to make sure he/she actually improved in the new "better" school?
The proficiency test scores for EdChoice students at private schools are on the website.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
I was told today that one local Catholic is comprised of 70% voucher kids. This is before the proposed expansion. At what point is that school NOT considered public?
 

eastside_purple

Well-known member
It’d be interesting to see a retention rate of students that moved from a failing public to a private school. How many leave the private school to return to the public school system? Would be an indicator of parent satisfaction.
 
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irish_buffalo

Well-known member
It’d be interesting to see a retention rate of students that moved from a failing public to a private school. How many leave the private school to return to the public school system? Would be an indicator of parent satisfaction.
It wouldn't though. Some parents simply believe they are doing better without quantifying.

Again, the public schools are mandated to take everyone. Even kids using EdChoice have parents taking a vested interest in that child's well being.

My solution to this EdChoice quandary at this point is to give the state legislature what they want because they are unprepared and do not understand the consequences.

Let the public districts fail. Do not pass another levy. Start cutting services. Bus service, extra curricular activities, electives, let it fail. Force the privates to take everyone not just the desirable kids. This would force the states hand. There would be so much uproar the state would be forced to do its job which is fund public schools properly.

This will not happen of course and public schools will continue this fight. This is nothing new. Two years from now there will be another initiative to break down public schools and it will not stop until private schools are publicly funded and people can make money off of education in the name of competition.
 

eastside_purple

Well-known member
Yeah, how could a parent ever be trusted to know if they are satisfied or what is best for their child. Good point.

Even kids using EdChoice have parents with a vested interest in their kids education? What a condescending statement. Maybe that attitude is part of the problem. And yes, of course they have a vested interest, that’s evident as they made a decision to move their child out of a bad situation.
 
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irish_buffalo

Well-known member
You missed my point. You leave the public with one less kid whose parent(s) care. Again, if everyone is playing by the same rules you wont find me arguing here. I understand that you, like many believe this is an attack on privates. It is not. It is about playing by the same standards.

There are plenty of kids who are discipline problems and have issues whose parents do not care. No worries, the public is mandated to try to teach these kids while the private is not.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Here is a snippet of how voucher users from a local public school district (Washington Local Schools - Whitmer HS) the very district that they left and claim as "failing." Once the private has more than 10 kids from that district they must test them. However, these stats are not used in any way towards EdChoice.

St. Ursula seems to do ok. Otherwise the public has them beat. So are the private schools failing?

View attachment 5926

Again, I post this as reference but want to avoid the argument that private schools are inferior because I'm not necessarily saying that and it should not be the argument even though many from the private side get offended and want to go there. The flaws of EdChoice are multiple but it has to do with, again, holding one entity to a set of standards and not holding the beneficiary of EdChoice the same standards. If EdChoice did this there would still be an argument but only in regard to using public property tax dollars from a closed district to fund a private school outside of that district.
Thank you for finding this data in ODE's impossible to navigate website. I spent quite some time last night looking and comparing numbers, and most of the Cincy area schools that the state says are now failing actually have higher scores than the privates do with the students using the vouchers (minus most CPS schools).

How can this happen when the public schools are so terrible? How can they take the state money if their performance isn't as high? How many families have seen some of the info above? Are the voucher students being given the same instruction as the non-voucher students?

I know this doesn't tell the entire story, but let's track individual students and see if they improve in the new setting. As I and many others have stated, tell the whole story, hold everyone to the same standards, end of discussion.

It was mentioned to let this entire new proposal go through, let the publics fail, allow the privates to educate everyone and see how expensive and difficult it really is. That's not a bad idea IF they get the same grading system as the publics. If voucher students perform worse at the private they are going to, the private school should NOT be allowed to take EdChoice, because how does it benefit the student?

Again, the data doesn't tell the entire story, but it starts an actual FACT & NUMBERS based discussion instead of each side just yelling "our side is better."
 

BirdDog10

Well-known member
Why should the entire private school for whom the taxpayer is not paying need to be measured using those same state tests if the data for the accountability for that one child being served is already obtainable? What further does that prove than testing the child using the voucher?
Because the public schools that are footing the bill for this program get their entire school tested and evaluated, and more often than not the students that bring those evaluations down are not even the ones that can take advantage of the voucher program. If you want to prove that the student is really getting a better education at the private school, show me the facts that the average student at that private school is better educated than what they would be at the public school in question, and show me that they have all the same opportunities and programs available to them at the private school. Hold the private schools receiving the benefit to the same standards that are held to schools this program is hurting.
 

FootballFan1795

Well-known member
Hold the private schools receiving the benefit to the same standards that are held by schools this program is hurting.

If privates received the same total taxpayer dollars as publics do, they could be measured by the exact same standards. But, they don’t – so, they aren’t.
 
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