The future of EdChoice

cincifbfan

Well-known member
The schools with the big National Merit offers are a tier below Ohio State, Michigan, etc. academically. Alabama, Kentucky, Wichita State, Central Florida, Ole Miss...all schools trying to raise their academic standing.

The problem with National Merit is that the standards are different from state to state. The qualifying score is lower in Mississippi than it is in Virginia.

Being a National Merit Scholar isn't much more impressive than being President of the French Club when Stanford can fill out their entire freshman class with kids that have 4.0 unweighted GPAs and 36 on the ACT and put an entire second freshman class on the wait list with the same stats.

Having a "hook" is more advantageous, and I suspect that graduating from an economically disadvantaged school district is a pretty solid hook. Many of the elite private colleges offer need-based, as opposed to academic, grants and scholarships. If you can get it, it might be cheaper to go to Notre Dame or Northwestern than Akron (assuming you're not a commuter).
I can tell you first-hand that you are definitely on to something about the economically disadvantaged schools and colleges. Having worked in Cincinnati Public Schools in past, I can tell you that the top 10-15 seniors in each school's graduating class, get so many acceptances and so much scholarship money, it'll make your head spin. The Valedictorian from let's say Woodward would have multiple full-ride scholarships and only having scored a 21-24 on the ACT.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but Colleges and Universities will bend over backwards and give so much money to poor minorities to diversify their campus. When I was working in CPS, I saw many seniors get paid to go to college because the school gave them a full ride, and then they got tons of outside scholarships, most were only available to minorities. And my experience was that private schools shelled out way more money to students from poor schools, most wasn't "need based aid." (My experience is purely what I saw working in CPS).
 

The Dock

Well-known member
A 4.0 where the student topped out with Algebra II and no AP courses is not going to get them into an elite college no matter where they go to high school.

Just wanted to also note that if a kid “topped out with Algebra II”, they took pre-algebra or were on a remedial math track. What you take matters!
 
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So what would happen if schools went to a regional approach and families could choose on a first come first serve basis as to which school in that region they would go to? I can’t imagine the well to do schools like Indian Hills, Dublin, Solon, etc would be too accepting of taking in lower income students. Perhaps the regional approach would work better if instead of first come serve we’ve basis it was done based on balancing out community representations. Just an idea.
 

ogealbhain

Active member
'Still, an A at one high school is different from one at another. Colleges have become savvier at interpreting what grades mean, including tracking students’ performance in college, to better-understand the grades they earned in high school.
Freeman said there are a handful of high schools - such as Catholic boys high schools - that have consistently maintained strict grading standards, based on how the students performed at Ohio State.
“We know students with a B in those high schools have worked hard for them,” she said. “You’re not going to see a third of the class with a 4.0 GPA. They have their own rigor and standards, and we haven’t seen them change that much.”'

Numbers Aren't Adding Up
 

Kballer

Well-known member
So what would happen if schools went to a regional approach and families could choose on a first come first serve basis as to which school in that region they would go to? I can’t imagine the well to do schools like Indian Hills, Dublin, Solon, etc would be too accepting of taking in lower income students. Perhaps the regional approach would work better if instead of first come serve we’ve basis it was done based on balancing out community representations. Just an idea.
You mean like a CHOICE in EDUCATION? 😉
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
'Still, an A at one high school is different from one at another. Colleges have become savvier at interpreting what grades mean, including tracking students’ performance in college, to better-understand the grades they earned in high school.
Freeman said there are a handful of high schools - such as Catholic boys high schools - that have consistently maintained strict grading standards, based on how the students performed at Ohio State.
“We know students with a B in those high schools have worked hard for them,” she said. “You’re not going to see a third of the class with a 4.0 GPA. They have their own rigor and standards, and we haven’t seen them change that much.”'

Numbers Aren't Adding Up
Probably a third of Mason seniors have a 4.0 GPA and they just had 21 students get a perfect 36 on the ACT. I think rigor is fine at Mason and many other schools. Students have gotten smarter as well with what rigorous classes to take and how to get As in them.
 

Kballer

Well-known member
'Still, an A at one high school is different from one at another. Colleges have become savvier at interpreting what grades mean, including tracking students’ performance in college, to better-understand the grades they earned in high school.
Freeman said there are a handful of high schools - such as Catholic boys high schools - that have consistently maintained strict grading standards, based on how the students performed at Ohio State.
“We know students with a B in those high schools have worked hard for them,” she said. “You’re not going to see a third of the class with a 4.0 GPA. They have their own rigor and standards, and we haven’t seen them change that much.”'

Numbers Aren't Adding Up
Yes that is why they ask schools for a profile- it shows a lot of that information including grading standards and percentage breakdown for GPAs. A top 10 student at one school could be viewed as less desirable than a kid who barely cracks the top 1/2 at another. Our local suburban public school if you have an 80% average it is a B-/2.7 for our private school that is a C-/2.0 and more importantly is how rigorous the course grading is and if there is a final exam that is a significant portion of the semester grade. All of these are discernible from the profile
 

serpico

Well-known member
As an addition to this discussion, I recently discovered that my local school does not (or soon will not) weight grades or GPAs due to the impossibility of figuring out which (offsite) College Credit Plus classes are truly rigorous and which are high school level classes disguised as college classes. Apparently only one school in the county will now use weighted GPAs.

This makes sense to me, but I wonder what it’s impact will be when kids from these schools are compared to kids from schools where grades are weighted.
 

ogealbhain

Active member
Probably a third of Mason seniors have a 4.0 GPA and they just had 21 students get a perfect 36 on the ACT. I think rigor is fine at Mason and many other schools. Students have gotten smarter as well with what rigorous classes to take and how to get As in them.
Not necessarily:

5846
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Statistically, it is comparable. IMHO, they have made the test easier.
The test actually constantly gets harder. As scores improve and large numbers of students students get perfect and near perfect scores, the test is adjusted to make it harder. Today's test is harder than 20 years ago and the test from 2000 is harder than 1980. School curricula has gotten more stringent as well in most schools. Kids today learn in 7-8 grade what we learned in high school. It's the natural evolution of how we progress.
 

ogealbhain

Active member
The test actually constantly gets harder. As scores improve and large numbers of students students get perfect and near perfect scores, the test is adjusted to make it harder. Today's test is harder than 20 years ago and the test from 2000 is harder than 1980. School curricula has gotten more stringent as well in most schools. Kids today learn in 7-8 grade what we learned in high school. It's the natural evolution of how we progress.
Please share the data/research showing this.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Please share the data/research showing this.
It should be fairly common sense. Think about calculators used in 1980 vs now. The math and science in particular had to get incredibly more difficult over the decades. They also in 2005 added the Writing test and that was last changed in 2015.

The reason we keep getting so many perfect and near perfect scores are because people are now ACT experts that teach kids exactly how to master the test. Kids also take it many times, whereas we took it once and just dealt with our scores. ACT and test prep is BIG business. So no matter how ACT and SAT change, people will be right there figuring out the new tests.
 

ringer2

Active member
Something doesn’t smell right if 21 students from the same HS got a 36. Only 3761 students in the nation got that score and you’re telling me 21 came from the same school? Hmmm.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Something doesn’t smell right if 21 students from the same HS got a 36. Only 3761 students in the nation got that score and you’re telling me 21 came from the same school? Hmmm.
Walnut Hills had 17 perfect scores last year. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Something doesn’t smell right if 21 students from the same HS got a 36. Only 3761 students in the nation got that score and you’re telling me 21 came from the same school? Hmmm.
Yes and you are going to see this trend continue as people continue to learn and teach the "formula" for the test. ACT will adapt and become harder and the cycle will repeat.
 
Something doesn’t smell right if 21 students from the same HS got a 36. Only 3761 students in the nation got that score and you’re telling me 21 came from the same school? Hmmm.
Last year when Sycamore had a boatload of perfect scores and the predictable story was written up, they actually quoted one of the girls about how their ACT teacher taught them how to take the test and as they got higher scores she worked with them to fine tune things. These big public schools can afford to employ these experts whose job is to teach the ACT, I don't doubt Mason has the same. Definitely helps to give perspective too, but reporters tend to miss the mark when they write up these stories and never include percentages. Mason HS has 3600 students.
 
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As an addition to this discussion, I recently discovered that my local school does not (or soon will not) weight grades or GPAs due to the impossibility of figuring out which (offsite) College Credit Plus classes are truly rigorous and which are high school level classes disguised as college classes. Apparently only one school in the county will now use weighted GPAs.

This makes sense to me, but I wonder what it’s impact will be when kids from these schools are compared to kids from schools where grades are weighted.
Your local school seems flawed in their thought process, CCP and AP class curriculums are certified via the college board prior to being approved, if the course has been certified then the content meets the standard and its really not up to them to decide if its not rigorous enough. There will never be a standard that can account for a teacher's course being seen as "easier" (or harder) than it should be, even in "high school level classes" you can have two teachers teaching "college prep english" and one will be viewed as harder or easier based on how they write their questions or how they grade responses, etc. Subjectivity is always going to exist, taking away weighting is not going to fix what they are trying to resolve.

That said, weighting in high school is actually not necessary as colleges already normalize transcripts from all students using the numerical grade received in the course (high schools all have different weighting scales, no reason to even look at that number). The numerical grade received generates a student GPA they can then use to better compare students along with their rigor level (the level of classes you are taking, compared to what your school offers yields your rigor level. Rigor level prevents students whose schools don't offer AP courses from being penalized for not taking any, and it prevents students who take all college prep classes for the straight A+'s from being rewarded when the school offers both honors and AP levels for those classes too).
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
As an addition to this discussion, I recently discovered that my local school does not (or soon will not) weight grades or GPAs due to the impossibility of figuring out which (offsite) College Credit Plus classes are truly rigorous and which are high school level classes disguised as college classes. Apparently only one school in the county will now use weighted GPAs.

This makes sense to me, but I wonder what it’s impact will be when kids from these schools are compared to kids from schools where grades are weighted.
What a shame as Ohio Department of Education recommends that they should be weighted.

If I'm a smart kid, why would I take "harder" classes if no weight on GPA? Let me coast and get a 4.0.
 
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Smalls

Active member
When I was in school not everyone took the ACT, only those who wanted to pay for it and go on to college. I think in Ohio starting with the class of 2018 all juniors are required to take the test. I am very surprised that we don't see the average scores going down from 2016 to 2017 when the class of 2018 were juniors. Seems like a statistical impossibility.

On a side note I would rather see this broken down by income than race. It also looks like there was some "re-bucketing" of the race bucket that makes it difficult to compare from year to year.
 

sapientia et veritas

Well-known member
If I'm a smart kid, why would I take "harder" classes if no weight on GPA? Let me coast and get a 4.0.
I have a cousin who is in admissions at a pretty selective east coast school. She said that all selective schools have a database that is populated with school weights based on college level performance of students at their university who came from that high school and the high school's "profile." The weights are used to re-calculate all applicants on a 4.0 scale. The recalculation eliminates BS courses and adjusts for regular vs honors vs AP. The AP grades are also adjusted based on the score on the AP test itself. So, the adjusted GPA from a kid at a known rigorous college prep school (and there are publics and privates in that classification) might have a 1.0 weight where an "easier" school might be weighted at .9 so that a graduate who got an adjusted 4.0 based on everything else gets bumped down to a 3.6 just for going to the easier school. But that could be adjusted up by a high score on a standardized test. And the standardized test score is also a separate criteria at most places. They type in all the numbers and the computer spits out the "real" GPA as far as that university is concerned. If there is a building on campus named for the student's parent or grandparent, then none of the other stuff matters.
 

rossford_resident

Active member
What a shame as Ohio Department of Education recommends that they should be weighted.

If I'm a smart kid, why would I take "harder" classes if no weight on GPA? Let me coast and get a 4.0.
Because highly selective schools differentiate between applicants based partly on their willingness to challenge themselves in all aspects of their lives.

Volunteering at the hospital where your father is the CFO probably won't carry the same weight as tutoring ESOL students taking night classes on Tuesdays when you could be starting a Video Game Club at school.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
This will get shot down in the Senate. Then what?

EdChoice needs to be eliminated. My public tax dollars are not intended to prop up private schools, many of which IMO would close if not for EdChoice. Many of which, would not have such a dynamite football and basketball team, if not for EdChoice.

Agree with cincifbfan, they can accept public dollars and not have to play by the same rules.

So under EdChoice lets get this straight. The private schools...

Are not held to the same BS grading system that the publics are held which means we really do not know if what they offer is better?
Are not required to abide by public school teaching standards.
Are not required to abide by Title XI and ADA (lawsuits will certainly come from this).
And can pick and choose who comes into the school using the voucher. The public schools must attempt to educate all of God's children (the boogar eaters, the physically disabled, the mentally disabled, those that do not speak English, kids who run slow and cannot jump high, etc...).

This original measure of EdChoice and its subsequent expansion was a measure established to bankrupt public schools. Nothing more. Nothing less.
 

ogealbhain

Active member
Your local school seems flawed in their thought process, CCP and AP class curriculums are certified via the college board prior to being approved, if the course has been certified then the content meets the standard and its really not up to them to decide if its not rigorous enough. There will never be a standard that can account for a teacher's course being seen as "easier" (or harder) than it should be, even in "high school level classes" you can have two teachers teaching "college prep english" and one will be viewed as harder or easier based on how they write their questions or how they grade responses, etc. Subjectivity is always going to exist, taking away weighting is not going to fix what they are trying to resolve.

That said, weighting in high school is actually not necessary as colleges already normalize transcripts from all students using the numerical grade received in the course (high schools all have different weighting scales, no reason to even look at that number). The numerical grade received generates a student GPA they can then use to better compare students along with their rigor level (the level of classes you are taking, compared to what your school offers yields your rigor level. Rigor level prevents students whose schools don't offer AP courses from being penalized for not taking any, and it prevents students who take all college prep classes for the straight A+'s from being rewarded when the school offers both honors and AP levels for those classes too).
I don't think CCP has any connection with the College Board especially since it could negatively impact their AP revenue stream.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
I don't think CCP has any connection with the College Board especially since it could negatively impact their AP revenue stream.
You are correct, they are not related and CCP definitely negatively impacts their AP revenue stream. I encourage anyone who is at a school that offers CCP to take full advantage over it. Why would you take an AP class where you have to get a 3 or higher on a singular test to HOPEFULLY get college credit. I say hopefully because there are quite a few colleges now who are NOT accepting AP as a substitute for taking classes. CCP gets you an actual college transcript which will then transfer to a college you want to go to if you are smart about it. It is literally free college in high school. Many students can and are graduating with 2 years of college credit under their belts. It is really a no-brainer.
 

Kballer

Well-known member
You are correct, they are not related and CCP definitely negatively impacts their AP revenue stream. I encourage anyone who is at a school that offers CCP to take full advantage over it. Why would you take an AP class where you have to get a 3 or higher on a singular test to HOPEFULLY get college credit. I say hopefully because there are quite a few colleges now who are NOT accepting AP as a substitute for taking classes. CCP gets you an actual college transcript which will then transfer to a college you want to go to if you are smart about it. It is literally free college in high school. Many students can and are graduating with 2 years of college credit under their belts. It is really a no-brainer.
Not all colleges take CCP either
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Both of you above are correct, but it's no different than any college transfer, not all credits count. If I know I'm going to UC, I'm going to take all the CCP classes UC has to offer.

As was stated, if you take CCP courses from Cincinnati State, a private college or any out of state college would just say no, they are not accept that.

Being a smart consumer was the point of my post about CCP over AP.
 
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