The future of EdChoice

eastside_purple

Well-known member
A bloated, over-costly governmental entity......where have I heard of something like this?
There’s actually a legit reason for them to run at a bit higher cost as they run extensive residency programs as teaching hospitals. However, Childrens holds a LOT of leverage in the market being the only game in town for specialized peds care and they make you pay for it.
 

eastside_purple

Well-known member
I will say this, I’m not a fan of the voucher program. But if it’s available, I don’t see why private schools shouldn’t take advantage of it.
 

Kballer

Well-known member
Catholic school teachers make on average 40 percent less than public school teachers. Catholic schools have little to no retirement plans. Catholic school teachers have little to no contractual protections that public school teachers do. My point to this is that more capable and competent teachers will go to the public schools. This is simply a market driven issue. I personally attended k-12 private schools and I saw strong language arts and social studies teachers but very average math and science ones.
Then your parents picked the wrong school- my kids had ohenomal teachers all along the way. maybe those teachers were willing to sacRifice the money for a better quality of job? Maybe their spouses carried the benefits for the family or had a high paying job? Based on my kids’ ACT scores And college acceptances - their teachers did an outstanding job.
I am not claiminn to know all of the ins and outs of the voucher/ed choice programs. I just don’t care for how my public school is spending so much promoting their agenda.
 

Kballer

Well-known member
Private schools segregate from poor kids. That’s why most people send their kids there now. The kids with disabilities will always go to public schools. That’s why it cost more. It’s like healthcare. Private insurance just pushes sick people to the government so they can keep all the profits
That’s not true- Catholic schools have a vast support net for “poor kids”. In fact many cities have Some of the highest performing grade schools in the most poverty stricken areas. One of the schools my kids attended were a higher percentage minority students than white. As for disabilities, the Catholic grade schools are definitely limited in what they can handle as most are very small.
 

scbuckeye99

Active member
First, I think they should fix the report cards to more accurately reflect a "failing" public school. Then they should take the other side of the equation and assign a letter grade to the failing private schools and prevent public money from being spent there. Seems crazy that you hold one side accountable but not the other.

Then we need to get away from blaming the schools altogether as failing the kids and start blaming the parents who aren't doing their job. (**stepping off my soapbox**)
Schools are a reflection of their communities. They reflect their wants, needs, goals, hopes, dreams, etc.....
 

SeeYaSometime

Well-known member
This will get shot down in the Senate. Then what?

EdChoice needs to be eliminated. My public tax dollars are not intended to prop up private schools, many of which IMO would close if not for EdChoice. Many of which, would not have such a dynamite football and basketball team, if not for EdChoice.

Agree with cincifbfan, they can accept public dollars and not have to play by the same rules.

So under EdChoice lets get this straight. The private schools...

Are not held to the same BS grading system that the publics are held which means we really do not know if what they offer is better?
Are not required to abide by public school teaching standards.
Are not required to abide by Title XI and ADA (lawsuits will certainly come from this).
And can pick and choose who comes into the school using the voucher. The public schools must attempt to educate all of God's children (the boogar eaters, the physically disabled, the mentally disabled, those that do not speak English, kids who run slow and cannot jump high, etc...).

This original measure of EdChoice and its subsequent expansion was a measure established to bankrupt public schools. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Just to correct a couple of your misconceptions, the private schools are subject to the same standards as the public schools. It is called the State of Ohio mandated “Graded Course of Study”. Generally the parochial Schools not only meet these standards but exceed them. Additionally, the grading system in the parochial schools is generally more stringent. As one college counselor told my son, “We recognize the quality of your education and realize the public schools cannot require the same standards for their students.” That’s why his GPA was elevated by .5 when they considered his applications at his selected schools.

Secondly you questioned the teaching standards. I’m presuming you are referring to the credentials of the teachers. I will concur there are some teachers without an Education degree, but then they hold a Bachelor of Arts degree. This permits them to be State certified. The vast majority of parochial teachers are state certified with Education degrees. A good percentage of those hold Masters degrees. With the results coming out of the majority of parochial schools, both elementary and high school, clearly the education is getting through. I know this because I have siblings who’ve taught in both public and parochial schools in Ohio.

I do have to laugh at your “The public schools do have to attempt to educate all God’s children.....” There is no God in the public schools. They are just bodies in the seats.
 

SeeYaSometime

Well-known member
Catholic school teachers make on average 40 percent less than public school teachers. Catholic schools have little to no retirement plans. Catholic school teachers have little to no contractual protections that public school teachers do. My point to this is that more capable and competent teachers will go to the public schools. This is simply a market driven issue. I personally attended k-12 private schools and I saw strong language arts and social studies teachers but very average math and science ones.
That was your experience, but cannot be a blanket statement for all. There are average, even lousy teachers all over. I was in an elementary public school building where the fifth grade teacher never got out of her chair. I’d hear her ridicule the students for their “do nothing parents”. But she was protected but the district’s union, heck she was the building rep, so nothing would be done about her. She was the Reading teacher BTW. She’s still there, right behind her desk. Very sad, do you think the kids felt cared about?
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Just to correct a couple of your misconceptions, the private schools are subject to the same standards as the public schools.

As one college counselor told my son, “We recognize the quality of your education and realize the public schools cannot require the same standards for their students.” That’s why his GPA was elevated by .5 when they considered his applications at his selected schools.
Your first point is 100% false in every way possible.

Secondly, you had a college counselor just arbitrarily add .5 to your son's GPA? That's fraud. That is why every school has a regular GPA and a weighted GPA. Colleges go by weighted GPA because it reflects the difficulty of classes. Either this didn't happen or you cut the college a check Felicity Huffman style for that to happen.
 

SeeYaSometime

Well-known member
Your first point is 100% false in every way possible.

Secondly, you had a college counselor just arbitrarily add .5 to your son's GPA? That's fraud. That is why every school has a regular GPA and a weighted GPA. Colleges go by weighted GPA because it reflects the difficulty of classes. Either this didn't happen or you cut the college a check Felicity Huffman style for that to happen.
EVERYTHING I said was the truth. If you can’t handle it, that’s not my problem. It was not a single college counselor, it was the policy of the universities’ Admissions Dept.
 

Summa

Well-known member
I suggest people look at the prepared for success portion of public school report cards for their local schools. There is no subjectivity in those numbers/stats and they generally are not good for most public schools. Specifically, the percentage of students ACT remedial free and the percentage of students that obtain a college degree within 6 years of graduating high school. I can assure you that most private schools perform very well in those two aspects.

Here is the link. Type in any public school district and check the Prepared for Success numbers:

https://reportcard.education.ohio.gov/
 
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sapientia et veritas

Well-known member
This is nothing but the legislature capitulating to the education industrial complex controlled by teacher unions that fails to provide a satisfactory product. The reality is that the department of education created an objective measure and 1200+ schools fell short. Now instead of tackling the problems, the educators are screaming to be graded more favorably on a curve. And it seems there's not an honest news reporting organization in the state that can tell the story without putting failing or underperforming into the necessary scare quotes to cast doubt on the report cards. The families who don't believe the report cards can just stay home and forgo the vouchers. Unless Paolo DeMaria grows some stones (unlikely) and fires all the employees under his leadership who developed the criteria by which schools are graded, I have to think that the report cards are doing nothing but revealing the unpleasant truth that public schools just aren't that good. I hope the parents of underperforming and failing kids go into the building and demand the same favorable accommodation on actual test results. No wait. Not necessary. The public schools already do that.
 

Summa

Well-known member
This is nothing but the legislature capitulating to the education industrial complex controlled by teacher unions that fails to provide a satisfactory product. The reality is that the department of education created an objective measure and 1200+ schools fell short. Now instead of tackling the problems, the educators are screaming to be graded more favorably on a curve. And it seems there's not an honest news reporting organization in the state that can tell the story without putting failing or underperforming into the necessary scare quotes to cast doubt on the report cards. The families who don't believe the report cards can just stay home and forgo the vouchers. Unless Paolo DeMaria grows some stones (unlikely) and fires all the employees under his leadership who developed the criteria by which schools are graded, I have to think that the report cards are doing nothing but revealing the unpleasant truth that public schools just aren't that good. I hope the parents of underperforming and failing kids go into the building and demand the same favorable accommodation on actual test results. No wait. Not necessary. The public schools already do that.
This is exactly correct. The previous public school review by the state, e.g. excellent and excellent with distinction, etc... was a complete joke. The new report cards are completely objective and reveal the actual data. Public school administrators do not like the curtain being pulled back. Irregardless of Ed Choice, the report cards are accurate and tax payers should know this information about their public schools.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
This is nothing but the legislature capitulating to the education industrial complex controlled by teacher unions that fails to provide a satisfactory product. The reality is that the department of education created an objective measure and 1200+ schools fell short.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Just reading our local report card, my first thought was that someone without a bit of logic tried to throw as many things out there that they could without any understanding what they were doing. It was a convoluted mess.

I think that if any person on this board was graded at their job by something so complex and meaningless as this report card, it would be extremely frustrating. No real business would use such a function to grade their workers. It is complex and meaningless at the same time because special interest groups are pulling this report card in so many directions.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
This is exactly correct. The previous public school review by the state, e.g. excellent and excellent with distinction, etc... was a complete joke. The new report cards are completely objective and reveal the actual data. Public school administrators do not like the curtain being pulled back. Irregardless of Ed Choice, the report cards are accurate and tax payers should know this information about their public schools.
Why doesn't the State require private schools to be ranked by the same report card system if it is so perfect?

What are you referring to with the curtain being pulled back on public schools? They are under way more scrutiny, laws, regulations, and transparency than their private counterparts and are 100% aware of this. I know of no person in public schools that feels tax payers should not know information about their schools.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
Advanced Placement classes are awarded a bump on the GPA, so a .5 is pretty standard.
Like I said in my reply, that is why there is a WEIGHTED GPA. Colleges do not arbitrarily award a .5 GPA boost. That is not standard. There is a formula for weighting Honor's classes, I.B. classes, AP classes, and College Credit Plus classes. Every school offers 2 GPAs... unweighted and weighted. The weighted calculates those advanced level classes, and the calculation is standard across the board, so colleges know a weighted GPAs mean the same thing regardless of school. That is how you get GPAs over 4.0 on a 4 point scale.
 

Summa

Well-known member
Why doesn't the State require private schools to be ranked by the same report card system if it is so perfect?

What are you referring to with the curtain being pulled back on public schools? They are under way more scrutiny, laws, regulations, and transparency than their private counterparts and are 100% aware of this. I know of no person in public schools that feels tax payers should not know information about their schools.
I am all for private schools reporting their ACT numbers and college graduation numbers. I am pretty sure public school administrators would not want that to happen however. Most private schools do provide these numbers as they use them in their promotional materials and recruitment. I couldn't care less about Ed Choice, but to say private schools have no accountability is hysterical. I will continue to pay tuition for my kids as well as pay my absurd real estate taxes for public schools.

The previous ODE review of public schools sure hid a lot of data. Sure it was available if a taxpayer asked for it, but it was not readily available like it is now with the new, objective and accurate report card system.
 

cincifbfan

Well-known member
I am all for private schools reporting their ACT numbers and college graduation numbers. I am pretty sure public school administrators would not want that to happen however. Most private schools do provide these numbers as they use them in their promotional materials and recruitment. I couldn't care less about Ed Choice, but to say private schools have no accountability is hysterical. I will continue to pay tuition for my kids as well as pay my absurd real estate taxes for public schools.

The previous ODE review of public schools sure hid a lot of data. Sure it was available if a taxpayer asked for it, but it was not readily available like it is now with the new, objective and accurate report card system.
I'm talking the entire report card, not just ACT numbers and graduation rate.

Also, do you know how Ohio calculates the graduation rate or dropout rate?
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
I am all for private schools reporting their ACT numbers and college graduation numbers. I am pretty sure public school administrators would not want that to happen however. Most private schools do provide these numbers as they use them in their promotional materials and recruitment.
But those numbers only apply to high schools. I think some of the private schools for younger ages would have the most eye opening stats regarding student achievement. Between 8th and 9th grade, I suspect you don't have a high number of high achievement students changing school systems. On the other hand, the number of low performing students transferring schools is mostly happening in one direction.
 

Summa

Well-known member
I'm talking the entire report card, not just ACT numbers and graduation rate.

Also, do you know how Ohio calculates the graduation rate or dropout rate?
Those are the only numbers I care about or even look at, but sure, have private schools evaluated by the entire report card system. I would have no problem with it.
 

Summa

Well-known member
But those numbers only apply to high schools. I think some of the private schools for younger ages would have the most eye opening stats regarding student achievement. Between 8th and 9th grade, I suspect you don't have a high number of high achievement students changing school systems. On the other hand, the number of low performing students transferring schools is mostly happening in one direction.
I have no idea. I would have to see the numbers.
 

rossford_resident

Active member
Your first point is 100% false in every way possible.

Secondly, you had a college counselor just arbitrarily add .5 to your son's GPA? That's fraud. That is why every school has a regular GPA and a weighted GPA. Colleges go by weighted GPA because it reflects the difficulty of classes. Either this didn't happen or you cut the college a check Felicity Huffman style for that to happen.
Any college with competitive admissions is able to fill their entire freshman class with applicants that have perfect GPAs, no matter where they went to HS.

Schools - public and private - are definitely tiered when it comes to college admissions. What most parents don't realize is that being an outstanding applicant from a lower-tiered school is often more advantageous than being a middling student from a top tier school. OSU only has so many slots for kids from Lakota West, Perrysburg or St. Ignatius.

And agree completely that no college admissions office arbitrarily adds .5 to someone's GPA because they went to private high school - not unless their target market is dupes willing to pay a premium for private school tuition. Lots of liberal arts colleges out there who will gladly tell you what you want to hear if you'll pay $30,000/year in tuition.
 

Salad76

Active member
Considering most of the comments on these 3 pages I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say almost none of you work in education, live in a failing district, have used EdChoice or know anyone that does.
 

gobluetom

Well-known member
This is nothing but the legislature capitulating to the education industrial complex controlled by teacher unions that fails to provide a satisfactory product. The reality is that the department of education created an objective measure and 1200+ schools fell short. Now instead of tackling the problems, the educators are screaming to be graded more favorably on a curve. And it seems there's not an honest news reporting organization in the state that can tell the story without putting failing or underperforming into the necessary scare quotes to cast doubt on the report cards. The families who don't believe the report cards can just stay home and forgo the vouchers. Unless Paolo DeMaria grows some stones (unlikely) and fires all the employees under his leadership who developed the criteria by which schools are graded, I have to think that the report cards are doing nothing but revealing the unpleasant truth that public schools just aren't that good. I hope the parents of underperforming and failing kids go into the building and demand the same favorable accommodation on actual test results. No wait. Not necessary. The public schools already do that.

Amen!!!
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
Just to correct a couple of your misconceptions, the private schools are subject to the same standards as the public schools. It is called the State of Ohio mandated “Graded Course of Study”. Generally the parochial Schools not only meet these standards but exceed them. Additionally, the grading system in the parochial schools is generally more stringent. As one college counselor told my son, “We recognize the quality of your education and realize the public schools cannot require the same standards for their students.” That’s why his GPA was elevated by .5 when they considered his applications at his selected schools.

Secondly you questioned the teaching standards. I’m presuming you are referring to the credentials of the teachers. I will concur there are some teachers without an Education degree, but then they hold a Bachelor of Arts degree. This permits them to be State certified. The vast majority of parochial teachers are state certified with Education degrees. A good percentage of those hold Masters degrees. With the results coming out of the majority of parochial schools, both elementary and high school, clearly the education is getting through. I know this because I have siblings who’ve taught in both public and parochial schools in Ohio.

I do have to laugh at your “The public schools do have to attempt to educate all God’s children.....” There is no God in the public schools. They are just bodies in the seats.
Just to correct your awful "corrections."

1). When I speak of grading I'm talking about the ridiculous system we use to grade our public schools and the BS criteria used to come up with those grades. The private schools are not graded by the same standards. It is a FACT that the private schools receiving public dollars because a public school is supposedly failing because of BS criteria are not held to the same standard and therefore we are unsure if they are even better. Public schools MUST abide by ADA and TitleIX. Privates do not. Publics MUST take everyone. Privates do not. These are the FACTS.

2). 95% of all public school teachers in the state of Ohio MUST having their Education degree (there are a couple exceptions). The private schools have no such standard. The public school teachers are required to constantly upgrade and return to school many times paying for these upgrades out of their own pocket. The private schools are not mandated to do this. This is a FACT that public school teachers are held to a higher standard.

Your last sentence is as asinine as your entire though process.

This is not about how good your local Catholic school is. As already mentioned, I am a product of Catholic Education grades K through 12. You CAN get a great education at a private institution. You can get a great education at a public institution. However, the EdChoice program is majorly flawed which has been pointed out numerous times on this thread and others.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
This is nothing but the legislature capitulating to the education industrial complex controlled by teacher unions that fails to provide a satisfactory product. The reality is that the department of education created an objective measure and 1200+ schools fell short. Now instead of tackling the problems, the educators are screaming to be graded more favorably on a curve. And it seems there's not an honest news reporting organization in the state that can tell the story without putting failing or underperforming into the necessary scare quotes to cast doubt on the report cards. The families who don't believe the report cards can just stay home and forgo the vouchers. Unless Paolo DeMaria grows some stones (unlikely) and fires all the employees under his leadership who developed the criteria by which schools are graded, I have to think that the report cards are doing nothing but revealing the unpleasant truth that public schools just aren't that good. I hope the parents of underperforming and failing kids go into the building and demand the same favorable accommodation on actual test results. No wait. Not necessary. The public schools already do that.
How did they fall short? And are privates measured objectively the same?
 

WJ-OSU-STEELERS

Active member
It’s extremely difficult to compare all privates to all public’s or one school to the next regardless if they are public/private. Just in Columbus, you have a Westland High School that has morning announcements in four languages (English, Spanish, Somali & Russian). You have the Columbus Public Schools who has a graduation rate of about 50%, where a majority of their kids live at or below the poverty line and where the % of kids who live with parents who are married to one another at what 25%? Also, I would guess 85%+ of the kids qualify for the state free lunch program. A lot of the CPS kids are going to school to be in a safe environment for 6 hours & a couple of hot meals each day. Two different worlds - impossible to compare the teachers/schools. Now, you can compare a Watterson, DeSales, Hartley & Ready with any of the Dublin’s, the Olentany’s, Grandview, Upper Arlington; outside of the religious experience which I completely understand/respect, I would guess that these public schools test as good or better than the privates. Also if you have a child who is on a IEP and needs additional services, my understanding is these public’s are far better.
 
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