Running Clock in basketball

[CasualFan24]

While it's extremely rare, I have been a part of Boys Varsity second half (beginning in the 3rd quarter) comebacks of 25, 27, & 29 in the past 10 years.

Personally, I feel that if a running clock should be enacted, it should be in the 4th quarter only.

Wow thats crazy and would have been cool to be a part of - but still do the math on that

I don't know you @AllSports12 but I know you have obviously been an official for quite some time based on your knowledge of rules and some of the things you've said about officiating. So I'm guessing your well established in your corner of the state, which means your a commodity and probably at least at one point was doing 60+ games a year.....so in potentially 600 games over 10 years you were involved in, those comebacks happened 3 times.....

Lets run that clock and all get home before 10pm on a Wednesday night!

 

[Thavoice]

I think the refs should ask the coach of the team that is losing. If the coach thinks they are done, run the clock. If the coach wants to get some young guys some time play the game

Said this when FB was considering this. I pregame, ask the coaches.

 

[CasualFan24]

Hard guy response, but not based in reality.

In your scenario, everyone is a great player then and every game is a great, ultra competitive game then, right? That's just not possible. By the nature of the game, there is a loser in every game. Just as many losers as there are winners.

Also, wouldn't getting beat by 60 be more embarassing than getting beat by 40 with a running clock? The running clock was put in to reduce embarassment (which I think is stupid, btw). Sometimes you get your kicked, and that's fine.

There is an interview with Kobe Bryant that talks about this. At age 12 Kobe played and would score 0 points in games. At age 14 he was the #1 player in his state regardless of age. He said he figured it out as simple math - you play 2-3 hours every single day over the course of a year. While most kids will play maybe 1-2 hours per week. He says if you want to be great, you have to be obsessive about training and practice.

A lot of people just want to make excuses for themselves and their kids - the proof is in the pudding folks. If you're not the ultra special .0001% - it doesn't mean you can't be great, you just have to put the work in. If you don't put the work in, you don't have the right to complain about getting a running clock put on you....

 

[Thavoice]

Wow thats crazy and would have been cool to be a part of - but still do the math on that

I don't know you @AllSports12 but I know you have obviously been an official for quite some time based on your knowledge of rules and some of the things you've said about officiating. So I'm guessing your well established in your corner of the state, which means your a commodity and probably at least at one point was doing 60+ games a year.....so in potentially 600 games over 10 years you were involved in, those comebacks happened 3 times.....

Lets run that clock and all get home before 10pm on a Wednesday night!

As a former coach in baseball, we always had the run rule. You knew going in the teams that could, or could not, come back from a 10 plus run deficit and we coached to that. A good team if we got ten we were a little more aggressive to get to 12, a bad team once it for to ten ya throttled back.

I've seen some hoops teams the last few years come back from 20*25 pt deficits but not 30.
As I Said before...I feel worse for the kids on winning team

 

[CedarBuck92]

For me the bigger thing is how the winning team acts when up by enough to start the running clock. Is the press still on? Are you still trying to actively run up the score? Are you starting to empty your bench?
In my mind when you are up big, use the time to work on somethings you aren't as good at. So walk the ball up and run something instead of running the 5 second offense. Work on a defense you aren't as good at. And get the bench players some minutes.

 

[OnTheLine85]

There is an interview with Kobe Bryant that talks about this. At age 12 Kobe played and would score 0 points in games. At age 14 he was the #1 player in his state regardless of age. He said he figured it out as simple math - you play 2-3 hours every single day over the course of a year. While most kids will play maybe 1-2 hours per week. He says if you want to be great, you have to be obsessive about training and practice.

A lot of people just want to make excuses for themselves and their kids - the proof is in the pudding folks. If you're not the ultra special .0001% - it doesn't mean you can't be great, you just have to put the work in. If you don't put the work in, you don't have the right to complain about getting a running clock put on you....

I really don't understand the "kids don't work hard" mantra. Every team is practicing 2-3 hours per day, 6 days a week, and most kids do other things like training/lifting in addition to practice time. Some have their own personal trainers. This is pretty much every program. This doesn't even include the off-season where the training/lifting continues and AAU ramps up multiple times per week in practice and every weekend at tournaments.

There is still drastic variations in skill and athleticism even with kids working hard. This shouldn't be news. Not everyone is the same skill level and never will be. These aren't robots, they're humans. If you put kids on the exact same training regimen, there would still be blowouts all the time.

Milford could train and do skill work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and they're still getting blown out by Centerville. Doesn't mean they don't work hard. This "kids don't work hard enough" mantra is garbage. Kids are working harder and putting in more hours than they ever have.

 

[Talk some sense]

A mercy rule has been used in baseball for a long time....

I rarely hear anyone complain about all the lost PT for the scrubs in those games.

Might there be other concerns in baseball since there's no clock? Like the losing team using up the arms of their entire staff? Just asking since there's no clock and theoretically a baseball game could go for days.

 

[Talk some sense]

Wow thats crazy and would have been cool to be a part of - but still do the math on that

I don't know you @AllSports12 but I know you have obviously been an official for quite some time based on your knowledge of rules and some of the things you've said about officiating. So I'm guessing your well established in your corner of the state, which means your a commodity and probably at least at one point was doing 60+ games a year.....so in potentially 600 games over 10 years you were involved in, those comebacks happened 3 times.....

Lets run that clock and all get home before 10pm on a Wednesday night!

I would think that games should be done by then anyway with or without a running clock if games aren't close. Won't have all the free throws and timeouts as in close games.

 

[CasualFan24]

I really don't understand the "kids don't work hard" mantra. Every team is practicing 2-3 hours per day, 6 days a week, and most kids do other things like training/lifting in addition to practice time. Some have their own personal trainers. This is pretty much every program. This doesn't even include the off-season where the training/lifting continues and AAU ramps up multiple times per week in practice and every weekend at tournaments.

There is still drastic variations in skill and athleticism even with kids working hard. This shouldn't be news. Not everyone is the same skill level and never will be. These aren't robots, they're humans. If you put kids on the exact same training regimen, there would still be blowouts all the time.

Milford could train and do skill work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and they're still getting blown out by Centerville. Doesn't mean they don't work hard. This "kids don't work hard enough" mantra is garbage. Kids are working harder and putting in more hours than they ever have.

First of all, I was literally quoting KOBE BRYANT - I'd say he probably knew what he was talking about, and was qualified to speak on what hard work is.

Second, this tells me that you don't know the difference between a kid who really works hard at their craft, and a kid who just does what is expected of them. The difference between a player that works hard like I'm talking about, and a player who does whats expected of them is drastically different and you can see it in their form and execution. It's also the difference between a kid who goes D1 in college and a kid who plays D3. I can give you examples of this all day long.

Lastly, if Milfords (or insert any other bad team) team trained every day for 2-3 hours per day for a year - I bet they'd be drastically improved the following year. It would not be hard to see the year-to-year difference.

 

[CasualFan24]

I would think that games should be done by then anyway with or without a running clock if games aren't close. Won't have all the free throws and timeouts as in close games.

Officiated a game 2 nights ago that did not tipoff until after 8:30pm because of delays in the freshman and JV games. Got in my car at the school at 9:50pm for 40 minute drive home.

 

[14Red]

I think the clock running rule is a horrible one. I understand it just a little for football due to the injury factor, and I can see baseball/ softball due to the arms situation. But in basketball, I think every minute is precious playing time for some one. A starter or a bench player. For those two to three kids at the end of the bench, get them in the game.
Also, another thing that really bothers me is when a team is way up on someone else, you empty the bench in the last minute and you ask the kids on the winning team to stop scoring??? We pay way too much attention to the scoreboard. It doesn't matter if you get beat by 1 or 35. If you're a coach who does this, just don't waste your time putting the subs in. And fans need to understand the kids on the bench want to score just like the starters do.
Do away with the running clock in basketball. It's nonsense.

 

[1 time]

My biggest gripe is hearing people of the winning team complain about stats. Again; the parents are the ones complaining.

But this is how I look at it (correct me if I'm wrong). Without a running clock, the subs go in earlier (mid 3rd Q??). With the running clock, the subs go in a little later (Sometime in the 4th Quarter). When you look at it in the end, the stats (points,rebounds,assists...) come out to be about the same. If your best player was going to score 25 in a game with no running clock, he's going to be right there with 25 WITH the running clock. At least that's what I've seen this year.

The only stat that matters is Scoreboard. If you go to any HS game, the coaches on both sides rarely sub until the last 2 minutes of a blowout game. Subs seldom get time no matter the score or a running clock. That May be worse then a running clock.

 

[AllSports12]

Wow thats crazy and would have been cool to be a part of - but still do the math on that

I don't know you @AllSports12 but I know you have obviously been an official for quite some time based on your knowledge of rules and some of the things you've said about officiating. So I'm guessing your well established in your corner of the state, which means your a commodity and probably at least at one point was doing 60+ games a year.....so in potentially 600 games over 10 years you were involved in, those comebacks happened 3 times.....

I suspect with both have a few stories in our arsenal for the post game beverages.

I'm actually in agreement with you on this.... My examples are certainly not the standard and would not be justification alone for the running clock. (just like stall ball. the number of times it happens is microscopic when placed against the total)

I just wish they'd limit it's use to the 4th quarter.

Lets run that clock and all get home before 10pm on a Wednesday night!

My favorite line an AD used on a JV crew during a weeknight game was.... "Fellas, you have one job. Make sure the ball goes up for the varsity game at 7:30"

 

[1 time]

With all the AAU and summer programs it’s kinda hard to believe there are teams that are this bad these days.

Because some of them do only some of this some of the time. Other then this, many never touch a basketball any other time. Thus , poor teams continue to get poorer. I wish there were other answers, but this is most of it.

 

[1 time]

There is an interview with Kobe Bryant that talks about this. At age 12 Kobe played and would score 0 points in games. At age 14 he was the #1 player in his state regardless of age. He said he figured it out as simple math - you play 2-3 hours every single day over the course of a year. While most kids will play maybe 1-2 hours per week. He says if you want to be great, you have to be obsessive about training and practice.

A lot of people just want to make excuses for themselves and their kids - the proof is in the pudding folks. If you're not the ultra special .0001% - it doesn't mean you can't be great, you just have to put the work in. If you don't put the work in, you don't have the right to complain about getting a running clock put on you....

Exactly. Thank You ?

 

[AllSports12]

I think the refs should ask the coach of the team that is losing. If the coach thinks they are done, run the clock. If the coach wants to get some young guys some time play the game

Bad idea.

Don't put the officials in the position of asking the coach of a losing team if everyone can leave early.... that's essentially what is happening here.

Having a regulation in place is fine.... I just wish they'd put it off until the 4th quarter.

 

[CasualFan24]

Exactly. Thank You ?

I love stories and examples of this stuff - I find them super motivating! Another good one is the series on Tom Brady right now "Man in the Arena: Tom Brady"...an episode in that series talking about how/why the Patriots were so good when they won 3 out 4 Super Bowls....Said it was about trying to outwork each other, if someone came in to lift at 6am, someone else was already there lifting at 5:30am and would make it know that he already had a half hour work in on that person....doesn't get better than this stuff....

 

[Knight27]

Bad idea.

Don't put the officials in the position of asking the coach of a losing team if everyone can leave early.... that's essentially what is happening here.

Having a regulation in place is fine.... I just wish they'd put it off until the 4th quarter.

I respect your opinion…but i ask why not put it in the coach? Who has to stay at games? Only the players and parents who need to drive their kids home. Officials are getting paid. They obviously can throttle the whistles down.
You know who it really matters to? Those seniors that suck. They put in their time all year knowing they are getting probably 20 minutes of game time for the entire season. Same with their parents. We all congratulate the 1000 pt scorers as we should but what about the kid who gets 8 pts in his career? Do you really want to shorten that to 4 pts by running 2 minutes off a clock to shoot FT?

 

[AllSports12]

I respect your opinion…but i ask why not put it in the coach?

You suggested that the officials bring it up to the coach. Trust me, that's just not a good idea to have the officials bring it up.

Placing it solely on the losing coach causes problems as well.

Officials are getting paid. They obviously can throttle the whistles down.

Even a worse idea.

 

[CasualFan24]

I respect your opinion…but i ask why not put it in the coach? Who has to stay at games? Only the players and parents who need to drive their kids home. Officials are getting paid. They obviously can throttle the whistles down.
You know who it really matters to? Those seniors that suck. They put in their time all year knowing they are getting probably 20 minutes of game time for the entire season. Same with their parents. We all congratulate the 1000 pt scorers as we should but what about the kid who gets 8 pts in his career? Do you really want to shorten that to 4 pts by running 2 minutes off a clock to shoot FT?

Here's the thing about that statement - in my experience, there is still a lot of fouling in those blowout games. Add to the fact that we're talking about putting in less talented kids as substitutes because of the score disparity, less talent usually leads to even more fouling.....

Also allow me to play devil's advocate - if you were a parent of one of the 8 point career scorers you are referring to, would it not infuriate you if your kid finally got in the game and got hammered on a shot and didn't get a foul call because it was near the end of the game and the officials throttled down their whistles? A running clock allows the officials to officiate the game as they see it, there is no thought in the back on their mind that "I don't want to call a foul here because it'll stop the clock"....If the clock is already running, the official is theoretically MORE LIKELY to call the fouls that should be called!

 

[Knight27]

You suggested that the officials bring it up to the coach. Trust me, that's just not a good idea to have the officials bring it up.

Placing it solely on the losing coach causes problems as well.


Even a worse idea.

Again I just don’t see the issue. You could go up to a coach at halftime. Hey coach your down 20 if they push it to 30 you want us to run the clock. Or even before the game. Or the coach could give you a hand signal at any point.

As far as throttle down whistles. I’m talking about bump or hand check call. Not letting the play get too physical. Plus refs know when the benches have been emptied

 

[Knight27]

Here's the thing about that statement - in my experience, there is still a lot of fouling in those blowout games. Add to the fact that we're talking about putting in less talented kids as substitutes because of the score disparity, less talent usually leads to even more fouling.....

Also allow me to play devil's advocate - if you were a parent of one of the 8 point career scorers you are referring to, would it not infuriate you if your kid finally got in the game and got hammered on a shot and didn't get a foul call because it was near the end of the game and the officials throttled down their whistles? A running clock allows the officials to officiate the game as they see it, there is no thought in the back on their mind that "I don't want to call a foul here because it'll stop the clock"....If the clock is already running, the official is theoretically MORE LIKELY to call the fouls that should be called

Again you have to still call obvious fouls. I have seen games end this year twice with a guy shooting his first FT at the line. With a running clock 2 minutes get used during FT

 

[OnTheLine85]

First of all, I was literally quoting KOBE BRYANT - I'd say he probably knew what he was talking about, and was qualified to speak on what hard work is.

Second, this tells me that you don't know the difference between a kid who really works hard at their craft, and a kid who just does what is expected of them. The difference between a player that works hard like I'm talking about, and a player who does whats expected of them is drastically different and you can see it in their form and execution. It's also the difference between a kid who goes D1 in college and a kid who plays D3. I can give you examples of this all day long.

Lastly, if Milfords (or insert any other bad team) team trained every day for 2-3 hours per day for a year - I bet they'd be drastically improved the following year. It would not be hard to see the year-to-year difference.

There are literally kids all over the place that will never play at ANY level in college that work just as hard or harder than kids than actually do go D1. You act like every kid that didn't make D1 just didn't work hard enough. Hard work is one aspect - there are many, many others. Come on man.

And yes, of course they would get better. That doesn't mean they still won't get blown out. You can work your body to the bone and still get blown out. Happens all the time.

 

[Smalls]

Not a fan of a running clock. Let the kids at the end of the bench break a sweat. I have seen two foul shots take 1:30+ off the clock. Do that 3-4 times in a quarter and the game is over.

Just go to halves instead of quarters and take a couple timeouts away. Will make for better flow and speed up the game.

 

[AllSports12]

Again I just don’t see the issue. You could go up to a coach at halftime. Hey coach your down 20 if they push it to 30 you want us to run the clock.

Look at if from my point of view.....

Let's say I or one of my partners whacked the coach early in the first quarter because of excessive complaining. His team playing poorly and a couple of perceived missed calls led him to act out of line.......

An official asking the coach "do you want us to run the clock" will not end well.

Or even before the game.

Good grief.....

No

Or the coach could give you a hand signal at any point.

Coaches has always had the option by rule to agree to shorten quarters. (they still do even with the running clock)

In all the years I've been around this game....... I have never seen or heard this request from a coach.

 

[Thavoice]

Not a fan of a running clock. Let the kids at the end of the bench break a sweat. I have seen two foul shots take 1:30+ off the clock. Do that 3-4 times in a quarter and the game is over.

Just go to halves instead of quarters and take a couple timeouts away. Will make for better flow and speed up the game.

DEf take TOs away. Way too many.

 

[Stirred not Shaken]

Not a fan of a running clock. Let the kids at the end of the bench break a sweat. I have seen two foul shots take 1:30+ off the clock. Do that 3-4 times in a quarter and the game is over.

Just go to halves instead of quarters and take a couple timeouts away. Will make for better flow and speed up the game.

Agree, eliminates a coach from holding the ball at the end of each qtr.

 

[Knight27]

Look at if from my point of view.....

Let's say I or one of my partners whacked the coach early in the first quarter because of excessive complaining. His team playing poorly and a couple of perceived missed calls led him to act out of line.......

An official asking the coach "do you want us to run the clock" will not end well.

Good grief.....

No

Coaches has always had the option by rule to agree to shorten quarters. (they still do even with the running clock)

In all the years I've been around this game....... I have never seen or heard this request from a coach.

Ok so then I ask, what problem are we trying to solve with running clock?
A HS game takes about 90-100 minutes
In probably 90% of running clock situations Team A is ahead by 20-25 at half. So we have already used 45-50 minutes of real time up. Let’s say Team A extends the lead to 30 in the first 4 minutes of the 3rd(25% of second half). We have now used up another 10-12 minutes of real time. So we are left with about 30 minutes of real time game left. Even with a running clock with zero stoppages you have 12 minutes (4 min in 3rd 8 min in 4th) to play. So we are basically trying to save 18-25 minutes of real time.

so I ask. What’s the hurry? Or are we running the clock because Trotwood beat West Carrollton by 100 a few years ago?

 

[CasualFan24]

There are literally kids all over the place that will never play at ANY level in college that work just as hard or harder than kids than actually do go D1. You act like every kid that didn't make D1 just didn't work hard enough. Hard work is one aspect - there are many, many others. Come on man.

So based on what you're saying....kids that don't play in college are still working with specialized trainers routinely during the offseason? Going to the gym every day putting up shots? Stop lying to yourself boss....

There are obvious talent difference from one kid to the next - no one is disputing that. But I'm telling you the difference between the elite and the average player is not ALL talent. And the average player can bridge the gap between himself and the .0001% elite player by working obsessively at getting better.

Prime example - Stark County, OH 2018. 2 of the best girls basketball players the state has every seen 5 miles from each other. Kierstan Bell at Canton McKinley (the .0001% player) (ESPN 8th ranked player in the country) and Taylor Mikesell at Massillon Jackson (ESPN 33rd ranked player in the country). Bell was 6'1" with all the natural talent in the world, Mikesell is your average run of the mill 5'9" girls basketball player. Mikesell worked more and harder than literally any player boys or girls I've ever seen to get where she is - this girl, no lie, put up 1000 shots a day, every single day, and worked with a specialized basketball trainer to refine her craft. Watch her on TV right now playing for Ohio State - she does not have elite ANYTHING physically (size or speed specifically)....the only thing she is elite at is her work ethic which has turned her into one of the best 3-and-D players in the country and a future WNBA player.

I don't know any other player, average or elite, putting in the kind of work she did and likely continues to do......THIS, is what Kobe was talking about

 

[OnTheLine85]

Compared to 10 years ago, yes, there is a significant number of kids working with personal trainers, some of which who don't play a snap after high school. Without question.

Especially kids that play high D1 schedules in high school. They bar has been raised from a talent perspective, and if you don't put in extra work, you get embarrassed. There is far more athleticism today - doesn't mean they're better basketball players however.

A ton of these kids never even sniff a college scholarship. I'm not lying to anyone boss.