Recommendations for cross country state meet?

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
It is also my experience that less and less people that I know go to the state meet to watch just to watch. If they don't have family directly involved, they don't go because of the facility and lack of being able to watch the meet. I have some college coaches that I look forward to seeing at the meet each year and nearly none of them come anymore. I see the same ones I see at local stuff up here in the NE, but the out of state recruiters (that I know) just skip it. I've been told by a few that it's just too hard to watch the meet.

That might all be just my circle of friends, but it's not untrue.
Another factor for which college coaches attend which postseason meets pertains to their team's schedules. How many DI conference meets were held the same weekend as the state meet due to how the NCAA DI XC schedule worked out this year? MAC was held on the same day as state. Big Ten was the day after state. DII coaches couldn't attend regionals this year because it was the same weekend as their conference meets. DIII's schedule is similar to DI this year. OAC and NCAC were the same day as the state meet. That said, ease of access is a factor. It's easier to recruit at some meets vs. other meets due to sheer number of bodies or how easily a kid can disappear after crossing the finish line. These are things I'd never given much thought until talking to college coaches.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Not that this doesn't have some merit, but: the OATCCC runs the Indoor State Meet, the OHSAA runs the State CC and Outdoor Meet. I can't see them giving OATCCC members a bib to get out on the course (they just allowed assistant coaches out a few years ago.
I wasn't necessarily asking for freebies. The OHSAA can sell these bibs themselves and make some extra money. OATCCC can cooperate by furnishing a list of its members who would be eligible to purchase a bib. Must be able to produce membership card at time of sale.
 

Run4Life

Member
I wasn't necessarily asking for freebies. The OHSAA can sell these bibs themselves and make some extra money. OATCCC can cooperate by furnishing a list of its members who would be eligible to purchase a bib. Must be able to produce membership card at time of sale.
I didn't think that was the case, I meant that since the OHSAA is responsible for the State Meet I cannot see them letting (? to ??? knows how many members could be in attendance at the meet) out on the course where the coaches only have access.
 

ENA2

Member
I don't think "seating" is one of the the the top priorities... but MONEY is! and if 1000 people pay to get in due to a place to sit and watch the finish, awards and scoring, then at $10 each, that's anohter $10,000..... Many casual fans are happy to see their kid run by a couple times, but think that a race really only comes down to that last "kick" and only get really excited when little Jonny or Sally cross that line. Most people on this forum know better.
Getting other fans closer to the course is a great idea, but not sure that would attract many more paid customers as most of those folks will come no matter what.
Ideally, IMO, it's 99% about the kids and their experience. Coaches, Parents, Spectators, Officials, OHSAA and money are all secondary,
Our kids generally like the spectators further away because it makes the race feel different than most Invites and Districts/Regionals. This maybe due to it being the STATE MEET. This was the case with Scioto Downs as well.
Now a few, have liked Tiffin or another invite better but always because of thier perfromance or the competition... not becuase of the crowd being so close and some have stated how they have not liked the crowd so close - usually mid packers who have been hindered due to the crowd.
 

ENA2

Member
Some have stated this earlier. Terry Oartmann has done a great job running this meet. I would never want to do it. Whatever and however he wants to do things is fine with me. He will consider suggestions and I will pass along what is on here. As far as I know, he will take help, so if you are willing, take the leap.
For example: Slippery, If you are willing to sit at the table and sell bibs to OATCCC members to get out on the course for a couple hours, I will also take a turn and if we get a couple others, then maybe there is a shot. But you (or someone) will have to organize it as I don't' think we we want to put more on Terry's plate.
 

madman

Active member
I don't think "seating" is one of the the the top priorities... but MONEY is! and if 1000 people pay to get in due to a place to sit and watch the finish, awards and scoring, then at $10 each, that's anohter $10,000..... Many casual fans are happy to see their kid run by a couple times, but think that a race really only comes down to that last "kick" and only get really excited when little Jonny or Sally cross that line. Most people on this forum know better.
Getting other fans closer to the course is a great idea, but not sure that would attract many more paid customers as most of those folks will come no matter what.
Ideally, IMO, it's 99% about the kids and their experience. Coaches, Parents, Spectators, Officials, OHSAA and money are all secondary,
Our kids generally like the spectators further away because it makes the race feel different than most Invites and Districts/Regionals. This maybe due to it being the STATE MEET. This was the case with Scioto Downs as well.
Now a few, have liked Tiffin or another invite better but always because of thier perfromance or the competition... not becuase of the crowd being so close and some have stated how they have not liked the crowd so close - usually mid packers who have been hindered due to the crowd.
We're already losing people who have been die-hard fans due to lack of access. If we improve accessibility, I think it would be easy to increase the number of students who come to watch the meet. As fun as it might be to have grandpa and grandma in the stands watching, I think it would be a ton better to have 50-100 kids from each school out along the course cheering. If I were a teenager, sitting in the stands and watching my classmates come by a couple times isn't going to motivate me to drive potentially a couple hours and then pay admission. On the other hand, if my buddies and I can be enthusiastically running from point to point and cheering them on that's an experience I might seek.

Improve accessibility and attendance will increase. Leave it where it's at and I think the trend psychodad's mentioned will be come more noticeable each year. We will lose more than 1000 spectators easily.
 

ENA2

Member
Exactly Madman. Try to get "butts in the seats" does not mean that their butts have to be sitting. There have to be "seats" for those who expect or need to sit - and many younger parents and some students still think they have to sit. we should try to attract those folks too. But ALSO attract those who want to enjoy the day by running around with their face painted. The x-mas display limited some of that I'm sure. Slippery's idea about getting limited others closer to the action would also be a step in the right direction.
Publicity and $ is unfortunately a top priority for the OATCCC so if we can promote that AND make it a even better experience for those racing then it will be a win-win.
 
4688
CHAMPIONS PARK CROSS COUNTRY COURSE, 4401 S. Charleston Pike, Springfield, Ohio (Clark County Fairgrounds)
35 minutes from Columbus and 25 minutes from Dayton right on I-70

Now if I could just get OHSAA to actually show up to look at facility. Terry has seen it and says it will work and that was before most of the improvements we have made. This same info was sent with my OATCCC rep for meeting last week.
 

yj_runfan

Well-known member
I have been to the Springfield Extravaganza at the Clarke County fairgrounds after and during significant rainfall. Even tho most of the parking was on grass there was no trouble. That was with thousands of cars. It is one of the biggest antique festivals in the country. The place must drain exceptionally well. Traffic moves in and out really well, also. It's right next to I-70 in central Ohio.
 

grange45

Member
Publicity and $ is unfortunately a top priority for the OATCCC so if we can promote that AND make it a even better experience for those racing then it will be a win-win.
This is 100% not true. The OHSAA is giving the OATCCC their priorities to make money and publicity. The OATCC has to work from that. The OATCCC is in it for the athletes and teams and are forced to play the game the OHSAA forced them into.

I hope no one views the OATCCC as ENA2 does. They are are our main voice right now to make both track and XC more fair with divisional breakdowns so all athletes and programs have a level playing field to compete. Numerous members are retired coaches that love the sport and still have the passion to promote it in a positive light. Their voice is simply not being heard by the OHSAA.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
This is 100% not true. The OHSAA is giving the OATCCC their priorities to make money and publicity. The OATCC has to work from that. The OATCCC is in it for the athletes and teams and are forced to play the game the OHSAA forced them into.

I hope no one views the OATCCC as ENA2 does. They are are our main voice right now to make both track and XC more fair with divisional breakdowns so all athletes and programs have a level playing field to compete. Numerous members are retired coaches that love the sport and still have the passion to promote it in a positive light. Their voice is simply not being heard by the OHSAA.
ENA2 has a reason to view the OATCCC the way ENA2 does, but I don't know that ENA2's statement means what it looks like. 2 options here: 1. ENA2 meant to type "OHSAA" in that particular sentence. OR 2: As you said, the OATCCC needs to be able to play the publicity and money cards in order to sell the OHSAA on agreeing to changes for the sport that benefit their members. A good example would be the addition of the at-large entrants for the state track meet. More competitors meant more money for the OHSAA and more publicity for the OHSAA and the sport by having more kids being celebrated as state qualifiers and competitors. Meanwhile, the addition of the extra qualifiers did not increase the length of the state meet which would presumably have cost the OHSAA money. If the OATCCC failed to use those factors when they presented their proposal for at-large qualifiers to the OHSAA, would the OHSAA have agreed?
 

grange45

Member
You’re probably right.

If you want to see the OATCCC with very minimal influence from the OHSAA all you have to look at the Mideast meet of champions and clinics. They are all about the athletes/coaches and are well run.

Going back to Clark county fairgrounds, I think if Chatfield and oatccc combined forces to meet with the OHSAA they could really be influential in getting the venue changed. In my opinion, it really needs to change because of the issues the past couple of years. But I wouldn’t be surprised if this already happened and still blew them off.

Also, I think OHSAA would be forced to change both the venues and divisional breakdowns if finishtiming and OATCCC say they would walk from working the state meets. They do almost the legwork and wouldn’t be able to have a state meet without them. Obviously I don’t want them to do that but am just trying to make a point.
 
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psycho_dad

Well-known member
I'm not sure that some of you understand how things work. The OHSAA is in charge not Finishtiming. You are kidding yourself if you think the OHSAA would not be able to put on the state meet without Finishtiming and / or OATCCC.
 

ENA2

Member
Thanks slippery, ....just typed the wrong letters. ... meant to type OHSAA there as they are the ones that host the tourneys. The “we” that I refer to after that is meant to be the OATCCC. So: publicity and money are priorities of the OHSAA, so if the Oatccc can promote those, and make it a better experience for the kids.... it’s a win-win.
 

ccrunner609

Active member
Dale Gabor today at the clinic said they are looking at other venues for the state meet. Going to check out Cedarville and Clark County today.

Cedarville wont be that course. Traffic nightmares, no grandstands or PA system for awards, the course is spread out and not good viewing unless you can actually run.

While the actual course is great for the runners, its not a state meet type atmosphere. Its fair for districts or regionals for sure. Matter of fact it needs to be the SW regional site due to its location to Dayton and Cincy
 

Rohbino

Well-known member
Cedarville wont be that course. Traffic nightmares, no grandstands or PA system for awards, the course is spread out and not good viewing unless you can actually run.

While the actual course is great for the runners, its not a state meet type atmosphere. Its fair for districts or regionals for sure. Matter of fact it needs to be the SW regional site due to its location to Dayton and Cincy
A PA system can easily be brought in. That should not be a factor at all. I'm on the fence as to if bleachers are even a necessity. I hope that Bowling Green is getting consideration.

I agree about Cedarville being the SW regional site. I had heard somewhere that alternatives to Troy were being looked at. Cedarville would be ideal. If the regional meet get moved to Cedarville, Indian Riffle would make a great spot for the Dayton districts.
 

ccrunner609

Active member
A PA system can easily be brought in. That should not be a factor at all. I'm on the fence as to if bleachers are even a necessity. I hope that Bowling Green is getting consideration.

I agree about Cedarville being the SW regional site. I had heard somewhere that alternatives to Troy were being looked at. Cedarville would be ideal. If the regional meet get moved to Cedarville, Indian Riffle would make a great spot for the Dayton districts.
I ran districts there in 1989. 2 inches of snow. Ran at Dayton VA the next year. I would like to see Centerville as the district site
 

XCFan98

Member
Cedarville is no worse than NTR with traffic. Trust me, I have been to both many times. Grandstands are a non issue, let it go. Weak argument.
 

CatchKokopelli

New member
I'm not sure that some of you understand how things work. The OHSAA is in charge not Finishtiming. You are kidding yourself if you think the OHSAA would not be able to put on the state meet without Finishtiming and / or OATCCC.
I know there are other timing companies in Central Ohio that would appreciate an opportunity to bid on a State Meet.

Am I the only one that doesn't like the Out and Back format of Clark County? The first mile and the finish seem coachable, but the rest, where teams change meet place, looks all but impossible. It is hard to criticize when we don't have the best alternatives, but I prefer the layout of the State meet. Parking sucks, but as for runners - this doesn't appear coaching/spectator friendly in my opinion.
 

grange45

Member
I know there are other timing companies in Central Ohio that would appreciate an opportunity to bid on a State Meet.

Am I the only one that doesn't like the Out and Back format of Clark County? The first mile and the finish seem coachable, but the rest, where teams change meet place, looks all but impossible. It is hard to criticize when we don't have the best alternatives, but I prefer the layout of the State meet. Parking sucks, but as for runners - this doesn't appear coaching/spectator friendly in my opinion.
There is a spectator path where you can see most of the race and can be close to the action. I’m pretty sure it would be just as coachable if not more than National Trail...definitely more than Scioto.

Gabor, at the clinic, told everyone also that NTR is looking to expand the Christmas display next year, making it impossible to have adequate bus parking for the meet. I think Clark County Fairgrounds at this time is the most realistic, especially how it meets the OHSAA checklist and is a more central location when compared to the other venues discussed on here. I’m not saying I approve their checklist but it’s what they want.
 
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I'm not sure what a course has to be for it to be "coachable", or why a state course would need to be so.
At the present location your runners probably won't hear anything you say during the first mile, and for much of the last one, but do they really need to by this point in the season?
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
We need to yell out to the kids where Bay runners are.
In a nutshell, that's what kind of "coaching" is occurring during a race. I was going to say that many coaches are consulting their phones to get the live team scores at the mile mark and are telling their kids what needs to be done from there until the next scoring mat and then again for the final mile.
 

grange45

Member
If you are coaching on meet day.....what the heck did you do for 5 days prior?

As for an emergency move in one year, I would think good old Mike at finishtiming would be up for it!!!
You obviously have not had a team compete at the state meet for ages.

It is very important to have a coach “coach” and inspire and give input to their athletes when they are racing.
 

CatchKokopelli

New member
I can guarantee you there were at least four coaches "coaching" during the division 2 girls race. If you followed the change in team placing and watched Tallmadge's rise throughout the race you saw "coaching" happen.

Assuming coaching does not take place during a race seems ignorant, but I may not be on the same elite level as you knowing how a race will progress five days prior....
 

grange45

Member
i hope you are being sarcastic.
Definitely about the first part of my message. I don't know who you are or if your a coach. But I'm 100% serious about coach's coach during races, especially at the state meet. Almost every single coach I see at the state meet is coaching their kids: telling them to move up in front of the pack, encouraging them throughout the race, telling them what place their in, etc. It's definitely a priority at the state meet to have this.

I even saw pschodad coaching his kids during the state race!
 
Why are we not hearing from psycho_dad about his huge donation he will be making to his alma mater, BG, in order to get the standards needed to hold the State Meet?? From what I hear, it is a site which could rival Terre Haute in terms of XC specific facility. By the way, made my first appearance to Terra Haute this past weekend. So nice to see people running around and cheering on the kids with little to no crowd control. Seems to be cross country fans can control themselves without the 120? or so officials needed at our State Meet.
 
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