D1 State semifinals - 11-6-18

Protests Are Not Part of High School Soccer (ALL SPORTS) and Will NOT be Considered
Bylaw 8, Section 3(1) of the OHSAA Constitution and Bylaws reads in part, “Protests arising from the decisions of interpretations of the rules by officials during the game will not be considered. Their decisions and interpretations are final.” This means that correctable errors must be corrected during the game and within the time established by playing rules.
Do you think that this is a “rules interpretation” issue?
 

HowardWebb

New member
Since nothing “happened” from 12 players being on the field, there is really nothing to change you can only correct what happened during the game, for instance had the team with 12 scored a goal and it was realized at the time that they scored with 12, as long as play isn’t restarted, the goal can be disallowed and sanctions can be given. Since they didn’t realize it during the game, the outcome is final
 
Since nothing “happened” from 12 players being on the field, there is really nothing to change you can only correct what happened during the game, for instance had the team with 12 scored a goal and it was realized at the time that they scored with 12, as long as play isn’t restarted, the goal can be disallowed and sanctions can be given. Since they didn’t realize it during the game, the outcome is final
Since the refs did not realize it during the game, the next step would be to bring the issue before OHSAA. Since there is no subjective judgment call, or interpretation of rules involved, I would say it is pure negligence on the part of the refs. Who’s duty is it to hire and certify the refs? OHSAA maybe?

And what do you mean by “nothing ‘happened’”? You don’t think that having an extra player on the field gave the Mustangs any kind of advantage?
 

MJ_SoccerRef

New member
It's not a 'dodge'. There IS no 'appeal' mechanism in place within the OHSAA. I was told this personally back in 2011 by Mr. Snodgrass, following a protest of a match I was part of the crew for. All decisions on the field by Officials are final. Period. Those are the facts, whether you like them and/or accept them........
 
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It's not a 'dodge'. There IS no 'appeal' mechanism in place within the OHSAA. I was told this personally back in 2011 by Mr. Snodgrass, following a protest of a match I was part of the crew for. All decisions on the field by Officials are final. Period. Those are the facts, whether you like them and/or accept them........
I’m not sure if you read my post. I asked 2 questions above. Those questions were not answered, ie, dodged. AND, not once did I mention the word appeal.

It’s really not about what I like or don’t like.
 

eaglepride

Active member
Baseballmom13

Curious to know if you have a daughter that plays for Twinsburg or were you affected by the outcome?
 
Has anyone considered that the opposing team had 5 or 10 minutes to bring it up to the sideline referee and probably missed it as well? I'm presuming that they didn't, or that the referees acknowledged their complaint and deemed that Strongsville playing with 12 was the correct move. I'm not sure what you guys are hoping that the OHSAA would do. Traditionally most governing sports bodies acknowledge the mistake and move on. Have you ever seen a major governing body take a post-game act to rectify a bad reffing decision?
 

Auggie

Active member
Has anyone considered that the opposing team had 5 or 10 minutes to bring it up to the sideline referee and probably missed it as well? I'm presuming that they didn't, or that the referees acknowledged their complaint and deemed that Strongsville playing with 12 was the correct move. I'm not sure what you guys are hoping that the OHSAA would do. Traditionally most governing sports bodies acknowledge the mistake and move on. Have you ever seen a major governing body take a post-game act to rectify a bad reffing decision?
This.
 

Gview

Active member
Since the refs did not realize it during the game, the next step would be to bring the issue before OHSAA. Since there is no subjective judgment call, or interpretation of rules involved, I would say it is pure negligence on the part of the refs. Who’s duty is it to hire and certify the refs? OHSAA maybe?

And what do you mean by “nothing ‘happened’”? You don’t think that having an extra player on the field gave the Mustangs any kind of advantage?
OHSAA assigns officials based on criteria (which includes certification) for all Regional and State Tournament games.

"Nothing happened" I am guessing but would think that the final result wasn't changed. Did they score with the 12th player on the field? Advantage, maybe/maybe not I wasn't there.

OK, your two questions have been answered.
 

MJ_SoccerRef

New member
I’m not sure if you read my post. I asked 2 questions above. Those questions were not answered, ie, dodged. AND, not once did I mention the word appeal.

It’s really not about what I like or don’t like.
We are ALL certified as officials for the OHSAA after taking the State Refereeing course, passing the test, and then enter as a Level 2 official. To be Playoff eligible, we must upgrade to a Level 1......which involves being Assessed on a number of games (passing those Assessments), passing another upgrade test.

Playoff Assignments are based upon points that that Official receives, which is a product of both the ratings that coaches & ADs give you for games you've officiated for them, multiplied against the points received from being selected to a Top 15 list, that every school is (theoretically) required to submit to the Main Office. Associations, Assignors, the District Boards, and others also turn in those lists. That final point total then places us in one of three Pools for the Post Season: State, Regional, & District. Obviously anyone in a State Pool can work games at all 3 levels. the State & Regional Pools are 3x larger than the total number of slots available, so Pool placement doesn't guarantee a game assignment.

State & Regional Assignments come from Columbus. Multiple factors enter in.....age, experience, travel distance, etc. are all 'possible' factors; you'd have to ask them for more specifics. Generally, an Official will receive only 1 State Game per post season, IF they get on. Regionals used to be multiple, but they too have for the most part are now 1 only per Playoff. I had 2 Regionals in '09,'10, & '11......and like many other officials, 1 only in each year since.

District assignments used to be made by one singular District Assignor; this year it seems it was a collective effort by each of the various District Athletic Boards.

There are also seasonal requirements we must meet to remain Playoff Eligible......minimum number of local meetings, minimum number of games officiated, etc.

I hope this helps. This is just 'scratching the surface', an over view, only from my perspective. It's more involved than this I'm sure.
 
We are ALL certified as officials for the OHSAA after taking the State Refereeing course, passing the test, and then enter as a Level 2 official. To be Playoff eligible, we must upgrade to a Level 1......which involves being Assessed on a number of games (passing those Assessments), passing another upgrade test.

Playoff Assignments are based upon points that that Official receives, which is a product of both the ratings that coaches & ADs give you for games you've officiated for them, multiplied against the points received from being selected to a Top 15 list, that every school is (theoretically) required to submit to the Main Office. Associations, Assignors, the District Boards, and others also turn in those lists. That final point total then places us in one of three Pools for the Post Season: State, Regional, & District. Obviously anyone in a State Pool can work games at all 3 levels. the State & Regional Pools are 3x larger than the total number of slots available, so Pool placement doesn't guarantee a game assignment.

State & Regional Assignments come from Columbus. Multiple factors enter in.....age, experience, travel distance, etc. are all 'possible' factors; you'd have to ask them for more specifics. Generally, an Official will receive only 1 State Game per post season, IF they get on. Regionals used to be multiple, but they too have for the most part are now 1 only per Playoff. I had 2 Regionals in '09,'10, & '11......and like many other officials, 1 only in each year since.

District assignments used to be made by one singular District Assignor; this year it seems it was a collective effort by each of the various District Athletic Boards.

There are also seasonal requirements we must meet to remain Playoff Eligible......minimum number of local meetings, minimum number of games officiated, etc.

I hope this helps. This is just 'scratching the surface', an over view, only from my perspective. It's more involved than this I'm sure.
Thank you for taking the time to give a detailed explanation about how officials are chosen for games
 

atthemike

New member
11:20 remaining

NOTE: with 11:20 remaining Strongsville substituted #23 and the starting goalie back on the field. Where as ONLY the backup goalie came off. Reviewing the earlier game footage when Strongsville made substitutions girls carried an ORANGE towel on the field and handed it to the player coming off. When Strongsville made the late sub of #23 onto the field, she was standing next to the coach for some time and when she took the field she did NOT carry a towel in her hand when she entered the game!

We were in the press box, along with 2000 other sets of eyes. NONE of us noticed the extra player. I am not going to criticize the officiating because in all my years attending games of all kinds I have NEVER witnessed the perfect game. In EVERY contest mistakes are made by refs, coaches and players. If you want to get technical, Twinsburg made a mistake allowing the lone goal. The defender was slow in reacting to the pass that allowed Strongsville to score.

It is a shame that there is controversy that some feel cost a team an opportunity, BUT Strongsville themselves could have scored THREE!

P.S. In reality had these been schools from areas that DON'T have their games aired, this wouldn't even be an issue! Are we going to go back over EVERY game ever televised and find an error that someone feels cost them an opportunity? They made a mistake!!! OK. I'm sure they had it out for Twinsburg!? It's done, move on from it!
 
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Has anyone considered that the opposing team had 5 or 10 minutes to bring it up to the sideline referee and probably missed it as well? I'm presuming that they didn't, or that the referees acknowledged their complaint and deemed that Strongsville playing with 12 was the correct move. I'm not sure what you guys are hoping that the OHSAA would do. Traditionally most governing sports bodies acknowledge the mistake and move on. Have you ever seen a major governing body take a post-game act to rectify a bad reffing decision?
To your 1st question, yes that’s the 1st thing I thought of. But then after giving it more thought, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a small HS coaching staff to police the other teams subs and what the refs are doing, in addition to policing their own subs, all while fulfilling the rest of their coaching duties.
 

Auggie

Active member


To your 1st question, yes that’s the 1st thing I thought of. But then after giving it more thought, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a small HS coaching staff to police the other teams subs and what the refs are doing, in addition to policing their own subs, all while fulfilling the rest of their coaching duties.
Yes it is realistic for the staff to know what the comp is up to. Many times they are more focused on the form of the opposition than what their own squad is doing so they know how best to attack, especially when down a goal. Not seeing the tape but you would have to think a coach would have seen an extra body in the back line or in the middle as I highly doubt the extra player was up top when up a goal.

Either way the result is in the books and its time to move on.
 
This whole thing is HILARIOUS.

The comments of 'there was too much going on and chaotic for the Twinsburg coaching staff to notice an extra player' is funniest part too. If a team is well coached, and switches the point of attack often (or even ONCE in 12 min), it would be absolutely OBVIOUS if the opponent had an extra player....you know, 3 up top offensively vs 5 defenders, or an outside mid vs TWO defenders etc etc. The only way an opposing coaching staff worth a crap would NOT notice would be if the 'extra' player was running all over the field randomly. Did that happen? Anyone know? Otherwise, coach better Twinsburg...coach better.

And I love dodgey mcdodgerton BASEBALLMOM13 calling out a 'dodge', then doing the exact same thing when asked if she had a daughter on the team. TOO FUNNY.
 


To your 1st question, yes that’s the 1st thing I thought of. But then after giving it more thought, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a small HS coaching staff to police the other teams subs and what the refs are doing, in addition to policing their own subs, all while fulfilling the rest of their coaching duties.
ballmom it isn't realistic. I'm guessing that's why 2k people at the game (Including yourself?) didn't notice. I mean how does a coach prepare for that kind of thing? But at the end of the day, that coach knows that his governing sports body isn't going to overturn a game result based on a referee controlled issue, and that he can only control what he can control. There's no one else to police those things but him(Her).

You can get a signed confession from the refs and an apology from the OHSAA but the result, predictably, is gonna stand.
 

oldmanfbfan

New member
The FIVE OFFICIALS that missed this should be ashamed of themselves. They owe both teams a apology. You failed at your job and caused much anxiety and frustration to 2 school districts. I hope all 5 of you have the courage to send written apologies to both schools.
 

3343

New member
The FIVE OFFICIALS that missed this should be ashamed of themselves. They owe both teams a apology. You failed at your job and caused much anxiety and frustration to 2 school districts. I hope all 5 of you have the courage to send written apologies to both schools.
As previously stated.........

Yes the officials made a mistake, but guess what they happen sometimes. But at the same time the coaching staff didnt notice it, the players didnt notice it, and neither did anyone in the stands.

Yes, it is unfortunate that this happened in such a critical/important game but there were a lot of other people who missed this also.
 

oldmanfbfan

New member
The 5 people who were assigned to enforce the rules were the ones that are solely responsible for this situation. Not the players, coaches, or fans. You can try to spread the blame all you want. But it doesn't change the fact that the 5 officials were the ultimate people to oversee that the match be played fairly. They FAILED.
 

AFGM29

New member
Curious

For all the referees that are involved on this thread, correct me if I am wrong. But, if this was to be discovered during the game by the (in this case, 5) officials, the only penalty is a Bench Yellow to the offending team. You wouldn't go back and determine when the faulty substitution happened and restart the game from there. And to be honest, knowing as many soccer and basketball officials as I do, they probably feel just as bad that this occurred.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just curious as to what those wanting some sort of reparation would like to see.
 

HowardWebb

New member
For all the referees that are involved on this thread, correct me if I am wrong. But, if this was to be discovered during the game by the (in this case, 5) officials, the only penalty is a Bench Yellow to the offending team. You wouldn't go back and determine when the faulty substitution happened and restart the game from there. And to be honest, knowing as many soccer and basketball officials as I do, they probably feel just as bad that this occurred.



I don't have a dog in this fight, just curious as to what those wanting some sort of reparation would like to see.


Correct
 

K-1122

New member
Two thoughts on this topic...

1) Of the (5) Referees, aren't the two besides the HR and AR's specifically involved with substitutions and the clock? Most regular season games have only 2 or 3 referees total. If anything the regional and state games should not see this type of error.

2) Each player has a position on the field, how can two play the same position for six minutes without knowing that they were +1?
 
Two thoughts on this topic...

1) Of the (5) Referees, aren't the two besides the HR and AR's specifically involved with substitutions and the clock? Most regular season games have only 2 or 3 referees total. If anything the regional and state games should not see this type of error.

2) Each player has a position on the field, how can two play the same position for six minutes without knowing that they were +1?
Well, ...yeah how would they not know? Why do you think this is causing such a stir?
 
For all the referees that are involved on this thread, correct me if I am wrong. But, if this was to be discovered during the game by the (in this case, 5) officials, the only penalty is a Bench Yellow to the offending team. You wouldn't go back and determine when the faulty substitution happened and restart the game from there. And to be honest, knowing as many soccer and basketball officials as I do, they probably feel just as bad that this occurred.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just curious as to what those wanting some sort of reparation would like to see.
Well, playing with 12 for me is something like playing with a corked bat. (Forgive the baseball reference). This may rub some people the wrong way, that is not my intention. But it’s cheating. As far as reparations, there’s no way to “undo” what has been done, hence the no appeals. I do think that the refs and the team playing with 12 should both be sanctioned in some way, MOVING FORWARD. The sanctions should also be made public, to deter others from the same behavior. I do not know if the OHSAA by laws allow for doling out sanctions under these circumstances. So again, a question of what should be done vs what can be done.
 

K-1122

New member
Exactly...didn’t want to come out and say it, but seems the focus has been on the referees and not on the fact that if you have a one goal lead and the worst that happens if you get caught is a yellow card on the bench, why not improve your chances of maintaining the shutout.
Pathetic if true...
 

K-1122

New member
Also, what coach says, hey you, get in the game w/o mentioning for who or the player asking the same?
 
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