Bored Coach Thread - Offense

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lhascnow

New member
I watch the site for 10 years but have never posted but desperate times call for desperate measures. This thread isn't to bash coaches, lets just have some real basketball talk rather than bickering. We don't need to get in recruiting talk or cheating talk. Put the shot clock talk aside (until later) Lets talk ball. I know coaches all look but don't post.

What is the hardest offense to guard? What are the actions that give your kids the most trouble? Is it screening like oak hills, ball screens, dribble drive like taft, princeton like hughes, holding the ball like gcl, motion, transition like trotwood, set plays, scissors or chin action like moeller or centerville, flex like mason has run, etc. Obviously talent is hard to guard as well but lets talk concepts. Who is getting the most OPEN shots?

If we look at who won leagues last year.

ECC - Turpin, I haven't seen them play so i don't know what they run.
GMC - Lakota East, set plays and hold the ball
GCL - Moeller, scissors and motion
GCL - Alter, don't get to see them play
CMAC - Hughes, princeton and dribble drive
CHL - Wyoming, I haven't seen them play
GWOC Trotwood, transition basketball
GWOC Centerville, motion, set plays, scissors

What is Blanchester doing to score 79 a game?
 
 
IMO the two toughest base offenses to guard are any hard cutting team that runs a Princeton style offense and a dribble drive team that uses quick cutting entries or concepts to manipulate space.

Conceptual breakdown of this would be weak side back screens (followed by a second screening action) off of ball reversal for Princeton and a player attacking a double or triple gap off of penetration and pitch for dribble drive.
 
lhascnow said:
I watch the site for 10 years but have never posted but desperate times call for desperate measures. This thread isn't to bash coaches, lets just have some real basketball talk rather than bickering. We don't need to get in recruiting talk or cheating talk. Put the shot clock talk aside (until later) Lets talk ball. I know coaches all look but don't post.

What is the hardest offense to guard? What are the actions that give your kids the most trouble? Is it screening like oak hills, ball screens, dribble drive like taft, princeton like hughes, holding the ball like gcl, motion, transition like trotwood, set plays, scissors or chin action like moeller or centerville, flex like mason has run, etc. Obviously talent is hard to guard as well but lets talk concepts. Who is getting the most OPEN shots?

If we look at who won leagues last year.

ECC - Turpin, I haven't seen them play so i don't know what they run.
GMC - Lakota East, set plays and hold the ball
GCL - Moeller, scissors and motion
GCL - Alter, don't get to see them play
CMAC - Hughes, princeton and dribble drive
CHL - Wyoming, I haven't seen them play
GWOC Trotwood, transition basketball
GWOC Centerville, motion, set plays, scissors

What is Blanchester doing to score 79 a game?
Click to expand...

Lakota East doesn't run set pays and hold the ball.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
IMO the two toughest base offenses to guard are any hard cutting team that runs a Princeton style offense and a dribble drive team that uses quick cutting entries or concepts to manipulate space.

Conceptual breakdown of this would be weak side back screens (followed by a second screening action) off of ball reversal for Princeton and a player attacking a double or triple gap off of penetration and pitch for dribble drive.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and what you just laid out can be done with or without talent. What it takes to be successful is extremely hard working and disciplined players. That is built and developed by the program. The hard work off ball with screens and movement, such as hard cuts to the basket, wears the other team down until they either tire or aren't disciplined to keep up with the offenses hard work. Your team must be disciplined to stick with their way of playing regardless of the other team. Those things are what lead to the easy open shots. If you're getting easy open shots, you don't need to have the most talented team on the floor to win.

Discipline & Hard Work Ethic
 
Philly_Cat said:
Agreed, and what you just laid out can be done with or without talent. What it takes to be successful is extremely hard working and disciplined players. That is built and developed by the program. The hard work off ball with screens and movement, such as hard cuts to the basket, wears the other team down until they either tire or aren't disciplined to keep up with the offenses hard work. Your team must be disciplined to stick with their way of playing regardless of the other team. Those things are what lead to the easy open shots. If you're getting easy open shots, you don't need to have the most talented team on the floor to win.

Discipline & Hard Work Ethic
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Well said and so true. Team success offensively is about basketball skill. great spacing, good shooting on the perimeter off of the catch without having to put the ball on the floor, great off the ball screens to create open looks and a post player who has been taught post moves. The slowest way to move the ball is the dribble and the fastest way to move the ball is a pass.
 
Every single offense is effective if you can teach it, and you have players. No offense is better than any other. Some coaches cant teach, some coaches only teach what they know with kids that do not fit. The best coaches have a core system (who cares what it is), they stress and teach the common fundamentals of basketball, and then adjust the system (more/less tempo some years, more/less pressure, iso drive/hunt for layups etc) to the desired levels based on their team.
 
This is sparta said:
I've been trying to look for new sets where there is a screen for the player who is going to set a ball screen.
Anyone have any of those sets that they like or that have worked for them?
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Point with ball on top. Big at free throw line. Big screens the wing and rolls hard to the basket as wing comes up to screen the ball who is moving toward the screener's wing. Point looks for big rolling - if not there big goes all the way through. Then pick and roll on ball. Got to be a mismatch or open cutter in there somewhere. Wing from opposite side fills at top. 5th player is in corner ready to shoot on same side as screener started on. Have never run this but the principles say someone should be open for a good shot if run hard and tight. Should require lots of helps and/or switches to stop.
 
lhascnow said:
I watch the site for 10 years but have never posted but desperate times call for desperate measures. This thread isn't to bash coaches, lets just have some real basketball talk rather than bickering. We don't need to get in recruiting talk or cheating talk. Put the shot clock talk aside (until later) Lets talk ball. I know coaches all look but don't post.

What is the hardest offense to guard? What are the actions that give your kids the most trouble? Is it screening like oak hills, ball screens, dribble drive like taft, princeton like hughes, holding the ball like gcl, motion, transition like trotwood, set plays, scissors or chin action like moeller or centerville, flex like mason has run, etc. Obviously talent is hard to guard as well but lets talk concepts. Who is getting the most OPEN shots?

If we look at who won leagues last year.

ECC - Turpin, I haven't seen them play so i don't know what they run.
GMC - Lakota East, set plays and hold the ball
GCL - Moeller, scissors and motion
GCL - Alter, don't get to see them play
CMAC - Hughes, princeton and dribble drive
CHL - Wyoming, I haven't seen them play
GWOC Trotwood, transition basketball
GWOC Centerville, motion, set plays, scissors

What is Blanchester doing to score 79 a game?
Click to expand...
Princeton is in gmc
 
Sounds like a bunch of over thinking on this post which I expected. The most effective offense is an offense where players don't have to over think and the action is simple as opposed to an offense with multiple passes, ballscreens, backscreens, flex cuts, and all the rest of the basketball jargon in one possesion!
I believe that's the problem with a lot programs, too cosmetic and not of enough substance.
 
Zezzo, i tend to agree with you on this in theory and from what is fun to watch. The only issue is some of the defenses are pretty good and i see teams take bad shots without some structure which leads to offense for the other team. I do agree if your goal is pace that sometimes you live with those shots. trotwood is a great example of this, their offense and defense are really tied together to create pace. btw, love how trotwood plays.

but its hard to get good shots if they aren't in transition, once the defense gets set. I think every coach wants the early shot, the difference is what they all consider good.

I hate to say it but the teams who are getting the best shots in my opinion are the ones who are taking the longest to get them. say what you want but oak hills gets good shots. Its painful to watch sometimes but effective. i guess it comes down to how willing are you to wait.

nwwarrior, i liked your idea if i understood it correctly. basically it sounded like get reversals, screen on backside and drive. a pretty good combination of drive, screen, and pass. I didn't follow the princeton after that though. Do you do this in motion? or how are your guys aligned? do you try to post up much?

I think the post play is the other part. We have a couple of guys who can post but aren't real tall so we try to post up but they get in the way of our drives and alot of times it gets us stuck when someone is in there.
 
I think that over coached offense is largely a byproduct of the way in which both defense and the way the game is officiated have changed.

If you don't (or can't) score quickly, against a lot of the better teams it is brutal trying to score in the half-court. There are a lot of ways in which to skin the cat, but now probably more than ever you have to find a way to have good spacing and ball and player movement in the half-court.
 
lhascnow said:
nwwarrior, i liked your idea if i understood it correctly. basically it sounded like get reversals, screen on backside and drive. a pretty good combination of drive, screen, and pass. I didn't follow the princeton after that though. Do you do this in motion? or how are your guys aligned? do you try to post up much?

I think the post play is the other part. We have a couple of guys who can post but aren't real tall so we try to post up but they get in the way of our drives and alot of times it gets us stuck when someone is in there.
Click to expand...

This year we were 5 out motion a lot with just pass and cut or screen away. When it was good it was due to quick reversals and attacking defenders coming out of long closeouts. Personal preference I'd rather be Princeton or dribble drive as I think those create the most issues for pack line defenses with the spacing (2-3 high and four out in the slots and deep corners).

We didn't post up much out of motion or sets, but I think if you regularly play with someone in the low post area you have to drill drive reactions a lot.
 
lhascnow said:
Zezzo, i tend to agree with you on this in theory and from what is fun to watch. The only issue is some of the defenses are pretty good and i see teams take bad shots without some structure which leads to offense for the other team. I do agree if your goal is pace that sometimes you live with those shots. trotwood is a great example of this, their offense and defense are really tied together to create pace. btw, love how trotwood plays.

but its hard to get good shots if they aren't in transition, once the defense gets set. I think every coach wants the early shot, the difference is what they all consider good.

I hate to say it but the teams who are getting the best shots in my opinion are the ones who are taking the longest to get them. say what you want but oak hills gets good shots. Its painful to watch sometimes but effective. i guess it comes down to how willing are you to wait.

nwwarrior, i liked your idea if i understood it correctly. basically it sounded like get reversals, screen on backside and drive. a pretty good combination of drive, screen, and pass. I didn't follow the princeton after that though. Do you do this in motion? or how are your guys aligned? do you try to post up much?

I think the post play is the other part. We have a couple of guys who can post but aren't real tall so we try to post up but they get in the way of our drives and alot of times it gets us stuck when someone is in there.
Click to expand...
. Everyone would like to play like Trottwood. Few can. Too many athletes, press creates a lot of their offense. It takes talent to press and play fast all the time. It’s fun to watch, but you gotta have the horses. In Ohio basketball, the talents , mostly, not there to play that way.
 
Zezzo! said:
Sounds like a bunch of over thinking on this post which I expected. The most effective offense is an offense where players don't have to over think and the action is simple as opposed to an offense with multiple passes, ballscreens, backscreens, flex cuts, and all the rest of the basketball jargon in one possesion!
I believe that's the problem with a lot programs, too cosmetic and not of enough substance.
Click to expand...

"Over thinking" are words that put people on the defensive and honestly what do they mean? Who decides that line?

In politer terms I'd say you might be saying the best offense is the one you can teach or that the kids can learn. The best offense is the one they can run best as opposed to the best in theory.

Not all coaches have benefit of a great down to the elementary system, all on the same page. They have a random quality coming into their program. But if they have that good system, shoot for that "over think." Thinking is how you beat a team with other advantages.
 
1 time said:
. Everyone would like to play like Trottwood. Few can. Too many athletes, press creates a lot of their offense. It takes talent to press and play fast all the time. It’s fun to watch, but you gotta have the horses. In Ohio basketball, the talents , mostly, not there to play that way.
Click to expand...
Very true that you need the athletes to effectively run this style of of transition offense, but you need coaching, too, to maintain it at a top level. If you look at Trotwood, they are NOT an undisciplined team. Yes, they play at a face pace, but you rarely see them taking bad shots.
 
They are a disciplined team. They are well coached. They are simply better then most they play, thus their style would not fit 75% of the teams in Ohio. Thus, you get many grind out games. Skill level just not good at many schools.
 
Ball Screen continuity. Tons of ways to get into it. We run a handful of quick sets that roll straight into our ball screen continuity based offense. You can pin down out of it, isolate, just about anything you want. It can be used for a quick shot or to kill clock in end of quarter/game situations.
 
eastisbest said:
"Over thinking" are words that put people on the defensive and honestly what do they mean? Who decides that line?

In politer terms I'd say you might be saying the best offense is the one you can teach or that the kids can learn. The best offense is the one they can run best as opposed to the best in theory.

Not all coaches have benefit of a great down to the elementary system, all on the same page. They have a random quality coming into their program. But if they have that good system, shoot for that "over think." Thinking is how you beat a team with other advantages.
Click to expand...
Semantics,,,,,,,,, ?‍♂️ Also, who are you to DECIDE how I write my post? I expressed my statement exactly how I wanted to and worded it properly just as you did with your post. This is exactky my point, in THEORY, well factually, you're "Over thinking" semantically in response to my post!
 
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Irish60 said:
Very true that you need the athletes to effectively run this style of of transition offense, but you need coaching, too, to maintain it at a top level. If you look at Trotwood, they are NOT an undisciplined team. Yes, they play at a face pace, but you rarely see them taking bad shots.
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Great point I60! I think it you have to be more disciplined for that type of style and not just on the court but throughout the program, every aspect takes discipline. It's more than just talent every school has talented players, some more than others.
 
lhascnow said:
Zezzo, i tend to agree with you on this in theory and from what is fun to watch. The only issue is some of the defenses are pretty good and i see teams take bad shots without some structure which leads to offense for the other team. I do agree if your goal is pace that sometimes you live with those shots. trotwood is a great example of this, their offense and defense are really tied together to create pace. btw, love how trotwood plays.

but its hard to get good shots if they aren't in transition, once the defense gets set. I think every coach wants the early shot, the difference is what they all consider good.

I hate to say it but the teams who are getting the best shots in my opinion are the ones who are taking the longest to get them. say what you want but oak hills gets good shots. Its painful to watch sometimes but effective. i guess it comes down to how willing are you to wait.

nwwarrior, i liked your idea if i understood it correctly. basically it sounded like get reversals, screen on backside and drive. a pretty good combination of drive, screen, and pass. I didn't follow the princeton after that though. Do you do this in motion? or how are your guys aligned? do you try to post up much?

I think the post play is the other part. We have a couple of guys who can post but aren't real tall so we try to post up but they get in the way of our drives and alot of times it gets us stuck when someone is in there.
Click to expand...

IH, I totally understand you're point however I don't agree with your example in terms of teams and styles. It appears that you're implying that style of play correlates with non-structure and undiscipline in reference with Trotwood. I don't know if you've seen Trotwood play but you would know that they're very disciplined, they don't take unnecessary shots, they play with structure and they're more than just an up-tempo team in fact they're one of the best half court teams if not the best in the Dayton area if not Ohio. I would say systematically, they take advantage of opportunities that allows them to impose their up tempo style offensively and defensively and I'm not niave, you have to have the players but several schools do and some even better athletes. Now that's on the opposing coach.

If you get a chance go to You-Tube and look up Trotwood games versus Centerville, Hilliard Bradley, Louisville Trinity and other notorius half court teams.

Dru Joyce has beaten Trotwood several times. Obviously. he's one of the best, but I also think so is Trotwood's coach.
 
Zezzo! said:
Great point I60! I think it you have to be more disciplined for that type of style and not just on the court but throughout the program, every aspect takes discipline. It's more than just talent every school has talented players, some more than others.
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. Very few have a lot of talent today. Only the mommy’s and daddy’s think that way ?
 
Zezzo! said:
Semantics,,,,,,,,, ?‍♂️ Also, who are you to DECIDE how I write my post? I expressed my statement exactly how I wanted to and worded it properly just as you did with your post. This is exactky my point, in THEORY, well factually, you're "Over thinking" semantically in response to my post!
Click to expand...

Who are you to DECIDE how I write my post? I expressed my statement exactly how I wanted to and worded it properly just as you did with your post. ?
 
The one word that I find most important - BALANCE

In multiple ways - 1) having many kids that have the capability to score the Ball, and 2) teaching broad offensive skills outside of your set offense.

This is just my opinion, but based on what I’ve watched for the last 10 years, coaches run some good action all across the city. What I’ve noticed is that most teams have a couple scoring threats, and no one else has the skills to score. It’s great to run fluid motion to get pick and pop open threes and open layups, but there is no other stand out skills outside of that.

The best programs have the discipline and infrastructure to run and teach great offense AND run and teach great offensive skills. Yes, players playing a role is VERY important in any offense, but every player on the team should have some ability to create their own offense if needed. This is where things break down for me.

Once you get into conference play where all teams know each other, and once you get into the playoffs when great coaching rises to the top, it becomes a slugfest because each teams best players are neutralized. The remaining players simply don’t have the basketball skills to keep the game free flowing and fluid.
 
My only reason for participating is as interested nerd. But I've only seen one reference, OP's, that the defense and offense are inherently tide. Is that best case, only case or completely unnecessary in any case? In what situation would two coaches running similar offense, choose different primary defense?
 
eastisbest said:
My only reason for participating is as interested nerd. But I've only seen one reference, OP's, that the defense and offense are inherently tide. Is that best case, only case or completely unnecessary in any case? In what situation would two coaches running similar offense, choose different primary defense?
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Take a way the set of defense, in both zone or man the fundamentals of cutting out penetration, closing out correctly, strong help side with rotation is the basest of zone or man defense (I would argue the fundamentals in a zone are even a bit more important than in man). If a coach can teach strong offensive fundamentals and then teach the mentioned strong defensive fundamentals they can run various defense sets within a year or even year to year.

To answer your original question I would say personel. Two open motion teams one that scores off drive and kick vs. one that scores on get to rim may have to guard different based on their kids strengths. But the same base offense could work in that scenario.
 
eastisbest said:
My only reason for participating is as interested nerd. But I've only seen one reference, OP's, that the defense and offense are inherently tide. Is that best case, only case or completely unnecessary in any case? In what situation would two coaches running similar offense, choose different primary defense?
Click to expand...
Personel. One team may have 5 kids on the floor all 6 feet tall and can handle the ball equally well, the other may have one 7 footer, two 6'7" and two 5'5". Both could run the same offense, but I would think a 2-3 zone or at the very least hedge and give back man defense would be important the team with variable sized players.

The team comprised of equal sized players should be able to play man defense and switch screens with little consequence.

On the AAU team I helped with we had a couple kids that whenever they were on the floor we played 3-2 zone. Otherwise , man to man.
 
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