CoachHoversten
Well-known member
Like the fact that his pin standard for time the scapula are in contact with the mat was what you would expect in a youth tournament and not college?
Ask the Ref.
- Thread starter Refman
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Like the fact that his pin standard for time the scapula are in contact with the mat was what you would expect in a youth tournament and not college?
True Dat! LOL!
Clarification of Rules/Violations and Penalties
Please assume the below described events are fictional and that they occurred as I have described them. I would like clarification on the call(s) if any that you would make for the given scenarios and penalties if any that you would impose.
Scenario #1: Wrestler A is in control on top near the boundary. He spins out to the front and places downward pressure on Wrestler B's head and kicks him out and backs away toward the center of the mat. As wrestler B is starting to stand up Wrestler A moves toward wrestler B places a hand on his head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B out of bounds knocking him to the ground.
At this point given the new stalling rule would this be considered stalling? Are most referees now calling this violation?
Scenario #2: Immediately following the above events as Wrestler B is getting up from the ground wrestler A moves toward wrestler B who is out of bounds and while both wrestlers are out of bounds Wrestler A places his hands similarly on B's head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B through one of the scorers into the bleacher seats that are adjacent to the mat but behind the scoring table. Wrestler A then turns and laughs with his coach and gives the coach a thumbs up.
What is the call and penalty for this?
Scenario #3: Wrestler A is on top in control and is running a near side cradle - suitcase lifts and places Wrestler B firmly on his back. Wrestler B is fighting off his back but is obviously in trouble. Wrestler A's coach yells let him out. Wrestler A releases the near side cradle and straddle sits (like a jockey on a horse) on Wrestler B while he is still on his back. Wrestler A aggressively throws a cross face finishing with his elbow on Wrestler B's cheek while wrestler B is still on his back. Wrestler A then climbs off of Wrestler B who is still on his back and kicks him out with one last shove to the head for good measure.
First, is hitting an aggressive cross face while your opponent is on their back a legal move? What is the call and penalty?
Second, is it legal to kick out a wrestler when they are on their back? What is the call and penalty?
Scenario #4: Wrestler A is in control with a deep half Wrestler B is fighting off his back. Referee calls the pin. Wrestler A as they are getting up from the mat hits the same cross face as described above finishing with a firm elbow into the cheek bone. As they get to their feet Wrestler A with doubled fists puffs his chest out at Wrestler B.
What is the call(s) and penalty(ies)?
Scenario #5: Wrestler A just tech fall pinned Wrestler B while physically abusing him as described above then refuses to shake Wrestler B's hand.
What is the call and penalty?
Please assume the below described events are fictional and that they occurred as I have described them. I would like clarification on the call(s) if any that you would make for the given scenarios and penalties if any that you would impose.
Scenario #1: Wrestler A is in control on top near the boundary. He spins out to the front and places downward pressure on Wrestler B's head and kicks him out and backs away toward the center of the mat. As wrestler B is starting to stand up Wrestler A moves toward wrestler B places a hand on his head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B out of bounds knocking him to the ground.
At this point given the new stalling rule would this be considered stalling? Are most referees now calling this violation?
Scenario #2: Immediately following the above events as Wrestler B is getting up from the ground wrestler A moves toward wrestler B who is out of bounds and while both wrestlers are out of bounds Wrestler A places his hands similarly on B's head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B through one of the scorers into the bleacher seats that are adjacent to the mat but behind the scoring table. Wrestler A then turns and laughs with his coach and gives the coach a thumbs up.
What is the call and penalty for this?
Scenario #3: Wrestler A is on top in control and is running a near side cradle - suitcase lifts and places Wrestler B firmly on his back. Wrestler B is fighting off his back but is obviously in trouble. Wrestler A's coach yells let him out. Wrestler A releases the near side cradle and straddle sits (like a jockey on a horse) on Wrestler B while he is still on his back. Wrestler A aggressively throws a cross face finishing with his elbow on Wrestler B's cheek while wrestler B is still on his back. Wrestler A then climbs off of Wrestler B who is still on his back and kicks him out with one last shove to the head for good measure.
First, is hitting an aggressive cross face while your opponent is on their back a legal move? What is the call and penalty?
Second, is it legal to kick out a wrestler when they are on their back? What is the call and penalty?
Scenario #4: Wrestler A is in control with a deep half Wrestler B is fighting off his back. Referee calls the pin. Wrestler A as they are getting up from the mat hits the same cross face as described above finishing with a firm elbow into the cheek bone. As they get to their feet Wrestler A with doubled fists puffs his chest out at Wrestler B.
What is the call(s) and penalty(ies)?
Scenario #5: Wrestler A just tech fall pinned Wrestler B while physically abusing him as described above then refuses to shake Wrestler B's hand.
What is the call and penalty?
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
Aside from the obvious frustration boiling out in those words, I will try to do my best to answer, though I have more experience as a coach than official (though I did take the class and officiate some)
Scenario #1: No escape should be given since you said "as B starts to stand up" and top man ("A") should be warned for stalling (or if already warned, awarded a penalty) since he is not attempting to wrestle nor letting B do the same.
Scenario #2: You said "while both wrestlers are out of bounds", which means the match is stopped and thus, there is no stalling. However, this can be one of two calls depending on the judgment of the official...unneccesary roughness which would be a penalty point (or 2 or DQ depending on # of penalties up to this point) or if deemed as bad as you made it, flagrant misconduct can be called, A loses the match and is removed from the rest of the competition. In the event that this happened at the conclusion of the match, meaning time expired and he does this, only a team point can be deducted however the flagrant can still stand and he can be kicked out of the event.
Scenario #3: I have seen aggressive cross faces called as penalties when wrestler is on his stomach (normal), so in the situation you described, if I am the official, it never gets to the point where he "lets him off his back". As soon as that happens, match is stopped, any NF points earned prior to the penalty are awarded, and B is awarded a penalty point (or 2 or DQ) for unnecessary roughness. As before, if deemed to be flagrant, that can be called too. In the event an official lets that go, no, intentionally letting someone off their back is not permitted and is a penalty as well, and any coach who would yell out loud to do so during a match is an idiot.
Scenario #4: As before, since the match has concluded, no change in the individual match result occurs, but a penalty is awarded and the point is deducted from the team. As before, if deemed flagrant, the wrestler can be tossed.
Scenario #5: I have no idea what "tech fall pinned" is...it is either a technical fall or an actual fall, it can't be both. If you are winning by 14 and take someone to their back and pin them, it is a fall, not a tech fall. Assuming you meant pinning them while in the process of going up 15, the penalty either occurred before or after the pin...if before (even just before), then the pin is wiped out because the match stops at the time of the penalty. However, any points earned prior to the penalty are still awarded so the tech fall would still stand....if the penalty occurred after the pin, then it is a team point deduction (effectively the same result as reducing a 6 point fall to a 5 point tech) and again, flagrant can be called....refusing to shake hands after the match is always unsportsmanlike conduct and would be a team point deduction (this is never flagrant)
****as an aside, as an official, the situations you describe don't just happen out of nowhere, there was probably tensions or animosity prior to these events occurring....I would never let it get to this situation knowingly...I would be talking to the wrestlers, warning them, etc***
Hope this helps and I am not far off in my responses
Thanks Coach! I didn't intend to have any frustration boiling out; as I said it is fictional. Those are the calls and penalties that I would have assumed in each scenario. RE: "tech fall pin" it is a pin at the point where had the pin not occurred it would have been a tech fall. I used that example to exemplify the point that one wrestler was obviously dominating the other.
Thanks again for your time it is very much appreciated.
Hmmm...interesting. I will say that normally when I hear situations explained that there is usually some bias or some points that are left out.
HOWEVA, I'm guessing these questions are in reference to the WV Duals in Parkersburg. I have had the pleasure in reffing at this tournament before. My peer and I to this day still crack up at some of our experiences that we had there. Unfortunately, I can totally see all of the situations that you have described happening just like this. It amazes me that this stuff would happen. We saw similar type stuff and we were left scratching our heads.
A ref and clairvoyant...cool combination! :clap:
One more scenario if I may:
Wrestler A is on top in control with a deep half and far side leg encircled. Wrestler B is on his back in a near fall position. Wrestler A releases the leg and the half, then places his hand over the mouth and nose of Wrestler B and forces his head down into the mat.
Is placing the hand over the mouth and nose an illegal hold?
(I'm pretty certain that it is but I would like to confirm)
Thanks!
Wrestler A is on top in control with a deep half and far side leg encircled. Wrestler B is on his back in a near fall position. Wrestler A releases the leg and the half, then places his hand over the mouth and nose of Wrestler B and forces his head down into the mat.
Is placing the hand over the mouth and nose an illegal hold?
(I'm pretty certain that it is but I would like to confirm)
Thanks!
NFHS rule 7.1.5v Illegal holds/maneuvers: any hold/maneuver with pressure exerted over the opponent’s mouth, nose, throat, or neck that restricts breathing or circulation.
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Getting tired of slow refs calling slow pins or the match could have ended in the 1st period if you were in the right position.....if my son is on his back I want him pinned asap he and others need to know to stay off their back yet some refs let em flop for 30 seconds when they have been pinned ....call em quick & move on
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
That really isn't a question for "asking the ref", but I will address a couple of points anyways:
1) The average fan can not even give the official definition of a pin...we all know what it looks like, but you would be amazed how many people don't know what a scapula is, let alone tell the difference from the stands when they are pinned to the mat.
2) Wrestlers who are truly pinned are unable to "flop for 30 seconds"...a person who can flop around is not pinned.
3) But to play along, let's go with what you said:
-- First, being out of position CAN delay the calling of a pin or give the defensive wrestler the time needed to get out of the pinning combination. Therefore, every official strives (or should) to be in the best position possible. That said, wrestling changes very quickly, what looked like two guys just pummeling in the center of the mat can become a flurry very quickly...so if the ref is hustling to get into position, I would hardly think one can or should fault them for not being in the best position the instant the pin occurred.
-- The only thing I have noticed, and I am a coach and was an OHSAA certified official, is that some officials (would guess the newest ones) erroneously believe they must achieve a 5-count prior to calling a pin. Now, I am only assuming what is in their mind, but watching a match, I have seen officials standing counting to 5 with their arm, BEFORE ever getting down, and they do it consistently, meaning they never look for a pin until the 5-count. This is incorrect, and I would hope that a more experienced official would make sure to tell the official during their break to work to correct that.
Finally, most officials have no desire to be there longer than they "should" be; meaning no official is going to purposely not call pins so the matches and event go longer...their pay is not hourly (well, I suppose youth events are....so you won't see that in MS or HS at least). I promise you that an official out of position still has a better view than a fan halfway up the bleachers.
eyes r burning
Well-known member
Don't forget: "How long does he have to hold him there?!?!?"
2 seconds of continuous contact with the mat.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
speedthatkills
Well-known member
Or is it now 207 with the +2 pounds? I was wondering this myself.
I am not a ref, but here is an old JH manual from OHSAA that explicitly says that rule. That part of the manual didn't change in the last 2 years.
https://www.ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/wrJrHighManual.pdf
it should be 207 now with the 2 lb allowance.
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Where did the .1 come from?[/QUOTE]
Fixed it, you are right, no .1 added, thats a "commonly used amount" used by coaches to tell kids you have to weigh at least...in order to make sure they are over the minimum.
However, there is no .1 in the rule.
So obviously, with the 2 lb. wt. allowance the minimum for 287 would now be 217, correct? I couldn't find this in writing.
https://www.ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sports/Wrestling/HSWRManual.pdf
1.72) High School weight classes shall be those weight classes adopted
by the NFHS: 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170,
182, 195, 220 and 285. The minimum weight for the 285 pound
class is 215 lbs (and is subject to the growth allowance).
I've run into an interesting situation and would like advice on how to advise wrestlers that find themselves in this situation:
Wrestler A: Is known for preferring to tie up and uses a variety of different throws: headlocks, arm throws, laterals, etc.
Wrestler B: Is aware of wrestler A abilities to throw and has been advised by his coaches not to tie up with Wrestler A.
Wrestler A makes every effort to tie up with Wrestler B and in the process goes out of bounds. Referee enforces new stalling rule for driving your opponent out of bounds.
Should I advise Wrestler A to stay in the center in a good stance and wait for Wrestler B to move back to the center? If Wrestler B refuse to engage Wrestler A in the center will Wrestler B be called for stalling or will Wrestler A be called for stalling for not chasing Wrestler B around the mat?
I am inclined to tell him to stay center in a good stance because when he chases he tends to come out of his stance and leaves himself open to being shot on. However, I would like to confirm that Wrestler B will be called for stalling for not engaging in the center of the mat.
Wrestler A: Is known for preferring to tie up and uses a variety of different throws: headlocks, arm throws, laterals, etc.
Wrestler B: Is aware of wrestler A abilities to throw and has been advised by his coaches not to tie up with Wrestler A.
Wrestler A makes every effort to tie up with Wrestler B and in the process goes out of bounds. Referee enforces new stalling rule for driving your opponent out of bounds.
Should I advise Wrestler A to stay in the center in a good stance and wait for Wrestler B to move back to the center? If Wrestler B refuse to engage Wrestler A in the center will Wrestler B be called for stalling or will Wrestler A be called for stalling for not chasing Wrestler B around the mat?
I am inclined to tell him to stay center in a good stance because when he chases he tends to come out of his stance and leaves himself open to being shot on. However, I would like to confirm that Wrestler B will be called for stalling for not engaging in the center of the mat.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
Since no one has chimed in, I will share my thoughts...
1) An official likely will not "know" that wrestler A is known for tying up and B is known for working from space, unless he has officiated your schools multiple times.
2) "Makes every effort to tie up, and in the process goes out of bounds....referee enforces for driving out of bounds".
These are two very different scenarios. Driving someone out of bounds can not be the same as attempting to tie up. These require different things and should be obvious to an official.
3) If wrestler A stays in the center, in a good stance, and wrestler B refuses to engage by staying away from the center, then there is no way A can be nailed for stalling. A good official will tell the wrestlers (B specifically) to "work center". Thus, when/if B ignores this, he gets hit for stalling.
4) Based on the way you describe all of this, this does not seem like a complicated or difficult situation for an official. Stalling is not defined as some singular acts that get called when done, it is by definition the avoidance of wrestling. And wrestling is defined as working to score. Where most fans and even coaches do not understand this rule, is that even if you have worked your tail off for 2.5 periods and have a cushy 10 - 2 lead, you are by the rule book supposed to continue working to score. So when you start down blocking and backing away to protect your major decision, you are by definition stalling. Furthermore, defending yourself is not stalling. So a guy who has 5 takedowns to 0 because he is better, who then gets dinged for stalling (protecting his 10 - 2 lead), his coach will often yell "he has taken all the shots to none for B".
Well yeah, B spent the whole match defending shots and trying to get out from bottom. That isn't stalling. All of a sudden when it is 10 - 2, and B takes a shot because you backed off, you open yourself up to stalling.
No good official will ding A for stalling when they are attempting to score. The push off/drive-out rule is not that complicated. I encourage you to try and push a 150lb object backwards...I guarantee you won't do it standing straight up or just with your arms...you would have to lean, take short choppy steps, and drive it backwards. Pretty sure 1st year wrestlers learn that wrestling is a sport of angles, and never drive straight into your opponent, lest you wish to be double leg blasted.
"tying someone up" and "driving them out of bounds to stop action" are two very different actions and very different looking situations.
Hope this helped
Thanks Coach. I fully agree with your sentiment. Unfortunately, with the new push out stalling rule I don't think all of the refs are on the same page yet. Personally, I think it is very obvious when someone pushes their opponent out of bounds for no reason other than to stop the action as compared to the situation when a wrestler is trying to work into their opponent and their opponent is blocking and evading. However, it is left to the referee on the mat to make this distinction.
I've decided to advise my wrestler if this situation should occur to stay center in a good stance and allow the official to force action on their opponent.
What is the criteria for referees as far as physical fitness goes? I noticed a ref this past weekend who was as wide as he was tall. He didn't move real well on the mat and he missed a lot of back points/pins, because it took him so long to get into position to see/make the call. Is there any requirements to be fit to keep certifications?
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
@BigArlie...
The short answer to your question is no, there are no physical fitness tests or requirements to be an official. It is ENCOURAGED to be as fit as possible, but not a mandate.
That said, there are not enough officials to start disqualifying those who do not fit "your sense of what is appropriate". I do not use that quote as a shot at you, but if each official was judged by someone, what is okay and not would change from place to place. If you were a former Navy Seal, your idea of physically fit would be far drastic from a "normal person".
Also, and not to be mean, but I have seen many a coaches and AD's who are much heavier than any official at a tournament...should they be forced to quit too?
Now, I am trying to be fair and play devils advocate....as an official myself, if and when the time comes that my age, injuries, or physical abilities, hinder my ability to be a sound official or coach, I would stop. but that is just me.
We do not know each person's circumstances...I have a friend (not kidding about this) who when I met my wife was thinner than I, but he had some intestinal issues and had to have surgeries, a colostomy bag, and now weighs twice what I do. This was not by his choosing or by laziness...it was health related. He simply can't exercise like he used to, can't process/digest like he used to, etc.
If he was an official previously, loved the sport, was knowledgeable, and enjoyed doing it and needed the money, who am I to tell him he needs to quit because he is too fat? I would never want to be that guy.
If he was a good official except being too slow to get down for backs/pin, then I would take that over someone who does not know the rules, misapplies things, and is a mess on the mat.
If another official worked a tourney with him and they had a rapport, one could give him some advice about how to improve that, without being skinnier. Distance is key...if you are on top of the wrestlers, you must get down eye level with the mat to see backs...if you have distance, you can see it and start the count while you get into better position. An official should be back on the OB line predominantly unless there is a hold that needs to be looked at (choking, illegal lock, etc). If I am on the OB line and a kid goes to his back, I can see it and the angle (> 45 degrees) and begin my count while I move into position to see the scapula.
Anyways, hope this helps
The short answer to your question is no, there are no physical fitness tests or requirements to be an official. It is ENCOURAGED to be as fit as possible, but not a mandate.
That said, there are not enough officials to start disqualifying those who do not fit "your sense of what is appropriate". I do not use that quote as a shot at you, but if each official was judged by someone, what is okay and not would change from place to place. If you were a former Navy Seal, your idea of physically fit would be far drastic from a "normal person".
Also, and not to be mean, but I have seen many a coaches and AD's who are much heavier than any official at a tournament...should they be forced to quit too?
Now, I am trying to be fair and play devils advocate....as an official myself, if and when the time comes that my age, injuries, or physical abilities, hinder my ability to be a sound official or coach, I would stop. but that is just me.
We do not know each person's circumstances...I have a friend (not kidding about this) who when I met my wife was thinner than I, but he had some intestinal issues and had to have surgeries, a colostomy bag, and now weighs twice what I do. This was not by his choosing or by laziness...it was health related. He simply can't exercise like he used to, can't process/digest like he used to, etc.
If he was an official previously, loved the sport, was knowledgeable, and enjoyed doing it and needed the money, who am I to tell him he needs to quit because he is too fat? I would never want to be that guy.
If he was a good official except being too slow to get down for backs/pin, then I would take that over someone who does not know the rules, misapplies things, and is a mess on the mat.
If another official worked a tourney with him and they had a rapport, one could give him some advice about how to improve that, without being skinnier. Distance is key...if you are on top of the wrestlers, you must get down eye level with the mat to see backs...if you have distance, you can see it and start the count while you get into better position. An official should be back on the OB line predominantly unless there is a hold that needs to be looked at (choking, illegal lock, etc). If I am on the OB line and a kid goes to his back, I can see it and the angle (> 45 degrees) and begin my count while I move into position to see the scapula.
Anyways, hope this helps
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Really?? We have an official who is 3' tall??
I haven't seen any 3x3's but I did see a 5x5 a couple years ago. He would stomp his foot to call the pin and never got down on the mat. Fortunately, he was reffing JH matches. It was actually rather concerning as every match that he reffed he would get more red in the face and would have to sit down for 2-3 matches in between. Unfortunately, he made a lot of quick pin calls. Aside from the pins he did a great job but I was seriously concerned for his health.
In speaking with this particular ref he had been very skinny the majority of his life but got an infection from a work accident that caused his pancreas to fail. The meds he has been on caused him to rapidly gain weight and he was actively working to reduce his weight through diet, exercise and meds but wasn't experiencing much success. He loves the sport and appreciates that they allow him to continue working while he is dealing with his weight issue and intentionally doesn't ref any high school matches. He said he works kids and junior high only until he gets back in shape. I told him that I appreciated his commitment to the sport and wished him well in losing the weight.
Last time I saw him he had dropped over 150lbs and was looking much more fit.