Ask The Ref?
- Thread starter Yappi
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AllSports12
Moderator
We cannot see the whole play, but it doesn't look like the contact was above the shoulders.
When two opponents are that close to each other, it's rare that targeting will occur. Remember, just because we have helmet to helmet contact does not mean that a foul has occurred.
Demon Deacon
New member
Please address the action required under CONCUSSION MANAGEMENT section of OHSAA RULES if a player were to "lose consciousness." Under Ohio Code, in the same circumstance, what responsibilities/actions are the officials charged with.
AllSports12
Moderator
Any student, while practicing for or competing in an interscholastic contest, who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with having sustained a concussion or head injury (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems) shall be immediately removed from the practice or contest by either of the following:
1) The individual who is serving as the student’s coach during that practice or competition.
2) An individual who is serving as a contest official or referee during that practice or competition.
If an official removes a player for the reasons noted above, he notifies the head coach of the removal and the reason for said removal. After the game, the official files a game report with the OHSAA. At that point, the official has completed his duties regarding the removal.
Demon Deacon
New member
"...shall be removed immediately by either...."
And if neither removes? What's the adage?, "if everybody is responsible, nobody is responsible."
AllSports12
Moderator
Depends on what happens from that point on..... You asked for the actions and responsibilities of the officials and I gave it to you.
If you are referring to what happened over the weekend in one of the games, you had CATs, MD's or DO's involved. The officials have little or nothing to do with it at that point. The people with degrees in their respective fields now take over.
Demon Deacon
New member
Thank you, the officials are now out of the discussion. Does OHSAA RULE allow CAT's, MD's or DO's to permit a player "who loses consciousness" to re-enter a game the same day? OHSAA RULE.
AllSports12
Moderator
Once the signs symptoms or behaviors of a concussion or head injury are noted the player by state law is no longer able to participate until they complete the return to play protocol.
Nobody from the stands knows what the CAT, MD, or DO knows, observes, or diagnoses about the player in question. And nobody from the stands knows for sure whether or not a player lost consciousness.
Demon Deacon
New member
I must circle back only to understand, these "people with degrees in their respective fields" who have "taken over," ....and we are all appreciative of their expertise and presence.....it is not in anyway their responsiblity to understand OHSAA RULES or to enforce those rules?
At the event, who is responsible to ensure OHSAA RULES are explained and implemented?
Demon Deacon
New member
Thank you....our discussion has now come to an end....respectfully in parting,
If it collapses involuntarily like a duck, lays motionless on the field like a duck, and involuntarily loses controll of the ball from its wing like a duck, its probably an UNCONSCIOUS DUCK. One dolt spectators opinion.
AllSports12
Moderator
Well, then I trust that you are having or have had this same conversation with the medical professionals who actually attended to him. Again, you asked for the responsibilities of the officials and I gave them to you.
With regards to your expert spectator's opinion from many many yards away.....
I had a game once where a runner reversed his course right into a defender that was closing fast from the opposite direction. A hit, similar to this one occurred. It was a hit that took the breath out of every person in that stadium that was watching the play. The kid went down like a sack of potatoes and lay motionless.......
This was in the middle of the field so it took a bit to the Docs to arrive to tend to him. I, along with a couple of other officials, was standing right there looking at the kid lying on the ground motionless...... but saying "holy crap, holy crap:" over and over again. His teammates told the Docs "he's out cold".... I told the Docs that he's been talking the whole time. After about 45 seconds they sat him up, he was alert, smiling saying "I've never been hit that hard in all my life".... he went out for a series and returned finishing out the rest of the game.
The kid was a sophomore that year and we had the opportunity to officiate games in his junior and senior years as well as other sports.... In future conversations with him we talked about that hit. He said he was scared to death that he was severely injured, that's why he didn't move. Remembered everything about the play and what happened afterwards.
My point is, unless you are the one right there observing that duck....... it just might not be an unconscious duck.
Demon Deacon
New member
This is in no way an attack on officials. Split second judgements are one thing, this is a debate about OHSAA RULE enforcement. And I'm sure you, as the person responsible for the enforcement of OHSAA RULES and a non-partisan adult would have approached the DECISION MAKER and asked, "was the duck unconscious."
Impugning fans to grey the edges of a very important safety consideration/rule seems counterproductive.
Retrospectively, if they choose, the OHSAA can responsibly access what actually happened.
Impugning fans to grey the edges of a very important safety consideration/rule seems counterproductive.
Retrospectively, if they choose, the OHSAA can responsibly access what actually happened.
AllSports12
Moderator
First and foremost.... It's Ohio law that is being followed.
That puts a huge responsibility on the professionals that are tending to the player. If they mess up, the ramifications are enormous. They know what's a stake for them professionally.
If a kid is walking towards me taking three steps sideways for every step forward, we get him help and advise them.... "he's done"... By law the protocol kicks in with the OHSAA and the return to play procedures.
Laying there with medical professionals tending to them, it's on them. It's not my place to question medical professionals. If he comes back in, that tells me the pros have determined no head injury/no concussion. We will then have a watchful eye on the player.
And finally, me telling you that someone sitting in the stands isn't in position to assess the medical condition of a player isn't impugning that person.... It's stating a simple fact.
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Fencehanger
New member
So we must assume that this player did not lose consciousness or exhibit signs or symptoms of concussion as observed by the officials or the medical staff on sight? Otherwise this player would not have been allowed to return to play?
AllSports12
Moderator
That's correct for any player.
AllSports12
Moderator
And to you and your family
zebrastripes
Well-known member
There's not a simple answer to that question. What I can tell you is that 95 percent of officials believe that Campbell should have been flagged (including prominent officiating minds with NFL experience). Unfortunately there is a ridiculous stigma in college football (high school to a lesser extent, as well) associated with throwing flags on coaches. Many assigners and league commissioners don't have the backbone to put these coaches in their place and would rather kowtow to them than defend their officials. With the money there is to be made at the higher levels, many officials are not going to penalize coaches out of fear of losing their gigs.
The NCAA in 2017 had a strict point of emphasis that any coach entering the field to argue an officiating decision would be immediately flagged. It worked that year but in each year since then officials have backed off that directive despite it still being in the NCAA rules book. It is very possible that the lack of a foul on the Iowa State coach will trigger it once again being a point of emphasis in 2021 - and this cycle will start all over again. Until conferences (who oversee officiating assignments) get on board with regularly flagging coaches who behave like Campbell, the talk about sportsmanship is merely pontification.
Failure to penalize that behavior in an OHSAA game could very possibly get a crew sent home from the playoffs.
The NCAA in 2017 had a strict point of emphasis that any coach entering the field to argue an officiating decision would be immediately flagged. It worked that year but in each year since then officials have backed off that directive despite it still being in the NCAA rules book. It is very possible that the lack of a foul on the Iowa State coach will trigger it once again being a point of emphasis in 2021 - and this cycle will start all over again. Until conferences (who oversee officiating assignments) get on board with regularly flagging coaches who behave like Campbell, the talk about sportsmanship is merely pontification.
Failure to penalize that behavior in an OHSAA game could very possibly get a crew sent home from the playoffs.
AllSports12
Moderator
The fact that every official I have spoken with about this (spans all levels of officiating) agree that this should have been flagged tells me (and those officials agree) that this came down from the top before the game.
As Zebra noted, there's a bunch of money to be made working these games. In addition to guys fearful of being released, (and that happens overnight these days) if you go against what the powers that be dictate, you'll be given a copy of the home game and sent packing.
As Zebra noted, there's a bunch of money to be made working these games. In addition to guys fearful of being released, (and that happens overnight these days) if you go against what the powers that be dictate, you'll be given a copy of the home game and sent packing.
Allowing coaches like Campbell to go unpenalized is incredibly unfair to the majority of coaches who conduct themselves in a sporting manner.
I wish more people had the guts to call out conference leadership for their hypocritical pontificating about "values" and sportsmanship and then all but threatening officials who penalize these coaches who think they are gods.
I wish more people had the guts to call out conference leadership for their hypocritical pontificating about "values" and sportsmanship and then all but threatening officials who penalize these coaches who think they are gods.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
You are preaching to the choir - unfortunately too often the mentality at that level is "don't rock the boat." I do think to a certain extent it is more fear on the part of officials than reality - no one with a straight face can say Campbell's behavior was unworthy of a flag. But when you are making as much money as those officials are making, it's not shocking that they are going to try and ruffle as few feathers as possible. After all, there are plenty of aspiring officials willing to take their place.
And for the record, this mentality is not exclusive to college. A lot of high school assigners are scared to death of being run off by the coaches in their league and will do whatever it takes to make them happy, even at the expense of their officials. Fortunately, I officiate in one of the top conferences in Ohio and not only would I be supported for flagging this behavior, but I would likely hear about it if I didn't - from the assigner and the OHSAA overlords.
The structure of officiating at the amateur levels is such that the assigners, to a certain extent, answer to the coaches. It's an obvious and unfortunate conflict of interest.
This has probably been covered in the past, but I was wondering if defensive pass interference is always a first down. Was watching a college game the other day. After two sacks it was 3rd and 34. Had there been DPI on the next play would the ref have announced PI, 15 yards penalty, automatic first down?
AllSports12
Moderator
In a game played under NCAA Rules, any Defensive Pass Interference Foul carries an automatic first down. The enforcement of that foul varies, depending on where the foul occurred and where the ball was snapped from.
The NFHS removed the automatic first down provision for Defensive Pass Interference in 2013. The penalty for such foul is 15 yards from the previous spot (or half the distance to the goal line) and replay the down.
Captain_Cavman
Active member
Pass is thrown.
Receiver jumps, catches and controls ball in the air and breaks the goaline plane.
BUT
When the receiver lands to "complete" the pass, the ball is NOT across the goaline plane.
Touchdown or is it spotted where the ball was when receiver's feet landed and completed the catch?
Receiver jumps, catches and controls ball in the air and breaks the goaline plane.
BUT
When the receiver lands to "complete" the pass, the ball is NOT across the goaline plane.
Touchdown or is it spotted where the ball was when receiver's feet landed and completed the catch?
AllSports12
Moderator
Not a touchdown under NFHS Rules
In addition, the ball is still live as the receiver has not been downed.
Captain_Cavman
Active member
AllSports12
Moderator
In NCAA, the ruling would be the same.
In the NFL it is a touchdown.
As long as possession has been maintained throughout.