Ask The Ref?

Just.here

Well-known member
The difference is there is really no launch on this play. The "taking aim" that AS12 mentioned. The other play, the defender turned himself into a projectile and led with his helmet. This play does not have that.
I’m just trying to get a clearer understanding of the rule. How is the Massillon defender not taking aim at the Hoban quarterback.

The rule says nothing about having to “launch” so why is that difference?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I’m just trying to get a clearer understanding of the rule. How is the Massillon defender not taking aim at the Hoban quarterback.

The rule says nothing about having to “launch” so why is that difference?
We cannot see the whole play, but it doesn't look like the contact was above the shoulders.

When two opponents are that close to each other, it's rare that targeting will occur. Remember, just because we have helmet to helmet contact does not mean that a foul has occurred.
 

Demon Deacon

New member
We cannot see the whole play, but it doesn't look like the contact was above the shoulders.

When two opponents are that close to each other, it's rare that targeting will occur. Remember, just because we have helmet to helmet contact does not mean that a foul has occurred.
Please address the action required under CONCUSSION MANAGEMENT section of OHSAA RULES if a player were to "lose consciousness." Under Ohio Code, in the same circumstance, what responsibilities/actions are the officials charged with.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Please address the action required under CONCUSSION MANAGEMENT section of OHSAA RULES if a player were to "lose consciousness." Under Ohio Code, in the same circumstance, what responsibilities/actions are the officials charged with.
Any student, while practicing for or competing in an interscholastic contest, who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with having sustained a concussion or head injury (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems) shall be immediately removed from the practice or contest by either of the following:

1) The individual who is serving as the student’s coach during that practice or competition.
2) An individual who is serving as a contest official or referee during that practice or competition.


If an official removes a player for the reasons noted above, he notifies the head coach of the removal and the reason for said removal. After the game, the official files a game report with the OHSAA. At that point, the official has completed his duties regarding the removal.
 

Demon Deacon

New member
Any student, while practicing for or competing in an interscholastic contest, who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with having sustained a concussion or head injury (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems) shall be immediately removed from the practice or contest by either of the following:

1) The individual who is serving as the student’s coach during that practice or competition.
2) An individual who is serving as a contest official or referee during that practice or competition.


If an official removes a player for the reasons noted above, he notifies the head coach of the removal and the reason for said removal. After the game, the official files a game report with the OHSAA. At that point, the official has completed his duties regarding the removal.
"...shall be removed immediately by either...."

And if neither removes? What's the adage?, "if everybody is responsible, nobody is responsible."
 

AllSports12

Moderator
"...shall be removed immediately by either...."

And if neither removes? What's the adage?, "if everybody is responsible, nobody is responsible."
Depends on what happens from that point on..... You asked for the actions and responsibilities of the officials and I gave it to you.

If you are referring to what happened over the weekend in one of the games, you had CATs, MD's or DO's involved. The officials have little or nothing to do with it at that point. The people with degrees in their respective fields now take over.
 

Demon Deacon

New member
Depends on what happens from that point on..... You asked for the actions and responsibilities of the officials and I gave it to you.

If you are referring to what happened over the weekend in one of the games, you had CATs, MD's or DO's involved. The officials have little or nothing to do with it at that point.
Thank you, the officials are now out of the discussion. Does OHSAA RULE allow CAT's, MD's or DO's to permit a player "who loses consciousness" to re-enter a game the same day? OHSAA RULE.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Thank you, the officials are now out of the discussion. Does OHSAA RULE allow CAT's, MD's or DO's to permit a player "who loses consciousness" to re-enter a game the same day? OHSAA RULE.
Once the signs symptoms or behaviors of a concussion or head injury are noted the player by state law is no longer able to participate until they complete the return to play protocol.

Nobody from the stands knows what the CAT, MD, or DO knows, observes, or diagnoses about the player in question. And nobody from the stands knows for sure whether or not a player lost consciousness.
 

Demon Deacon

New member
Depends on what happens from that point on..... You asked for the actions and responsibilities of the officials and I gave it to you.

If you are referring to what happened over the weekend in one of the games, you had CATs, MD's or DO's involved. The officials have little or nothing to do with it at that point. The people with degrees in their respective fields now take over.
I must circle back only to understand, these "people with degrees in their respective fields" who have "taken over," ....and we are all appreciative of their expertise and presence.....it is not in anyway their responsiblity to understand OHSAA RULES or to enforce those rules?

At the event, who is responsible to ensure OHSAA RULES are explained and implemented?
 

Demon Deacon

New member
Once the signs symptoms or behaviors of a concussion or head injury are noted the player by state law is no longer able to participate until they complete the return to play protocol.

Nobody from the stands knows what the CAT, MD, or DO knows, observes, or diagnoses about the player in question. And nobody from the stands knows for sure whether or not a player lost consciousness.
Thank you....our discussion has now come to an end....respectfully in parting,
If it collapses involuntarily like a duck, lays motionless on the field like a duck, and involuntarily loses controll of the ball from its wing like a duck, its probably an UNCONSCIOUS DUCK. One dolt spectators opinion.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Thank you....our discussion has now come to an end....respectfully in parting,
If it collapses involuntarily like a duck, lays motionless on the field like a duck, and involuntarily loses controll of the ball from its wing like a duck, its probably an UNCONSCIOUS DUCK. One dolt spectators opinion.
Well, then I trust that you are having or have had this same conversation with the medical professionals who actually attended to him. Again, you asked for the responsibilities of the officials and I gave them to you.

With regards to your expert spectator's opinion from many many yards away.....

I had a game once where a runner reversed his course right into a defender that was closing fast from the opposite direction. A hit, similar to this one occurred. It was a hit that took the breath out of every person in that stadium that was watching the play. The kid went down like a sack of potatoes and lay motionless.......

This was in the middle of the field so it took a bit to the Docs to arrive to tend to him. I, along with a couple of other officials, was standing right there looking at the kid lying on the ground motionless...... but saying "holy crap, holy crap:" over and over again. His teammates told the Docs "he's out cold".... I told the Docs that he's been talking the whole time. After about 45 seconds they sat him up, he was alert, smiling saying "I've never been hit that hard in all my life".... he went out for a series and returned finishing out the rest of the game.

The kid was a sophomore that year and we had the opportunity to officiate games in his junior and senior years as well as other sports.... In future conversations with him we talked about that hit. He said he was scared to death that he was severely injured, that's why he didn't move. Remembered everything about the play and what happened afterwards.

My point is, unless you are the one right there observing that duck....... it just might not be an unconscious duck.
 

Demon Deacon

New member
This is in no way an attack on officials. Split second judgements are one thing, this is a debate about OHSAA RULE enforcement. And I'm sure you, as the person responsible for the enforcement of OHSAA RULES and a non-partisan adult would have approached the DECISION MAKER and asked, "was the duck unconscious."

Impugning fans to grey the edges of a very important safety consideration/rule seems counterproductive.

Retrospectively, if they choose, the OHSAA can responsibly access what actually happened.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
This is in no way an attack on officials. Split second judgements are one thing, this is a debate about OHSAA RULE enforcement. And I'm sure you, as the person responsible for the enforcement of OHSAA RULES and a non-partisan adult would have approached the DECISION MAKER and asked, "was the duck unconscious."

Impugning fans to grey the edges of a very important safety consideration/rule seems counterproductive.

Retrospectively, if they choose, the OHSAA can responsibly access what actually happened.
First and foremost.... It's Ohio law that is being followed.

That puts a huge responsibility on the professionals that are tending to the player. If they mess up, the ramifications are enormous. They know what's a stake for them professionally.

If a kid is walking towards me taking three steps sideways for every step forward, we get him help and advise them.... "he's done"... By law the protocol kicks in with the OHSAA and the return to play procedures.

Laying there with medical professionals tending to them, it's on them. It's not my place to question medical professionals. If he comes back in, that tells me the pros have determined no head injury/no concussion. We will then have a watchful eye on the player.

And finally, me telling you that someone sitting in the stands isn't in position to assess the medical condition of a player isn't impugning that person.... It's stating a simple fact.
 
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Fencehanger

New member
Once the signs symptoms or behaviors of a concussion or head injury are noted the player by state law is no longer able to participate until they complete the return to play protocol.

Nobody from the stands knows what the CAT, MD, or DO knows, observes, or diagnoses about the player in question. And nobody from the stands knows for sure whether or not a player lost consciousness.
So we must assume that this player did not lose consciousness or exhibit signs or symptoms of concussion as observed by the officials or the medical staff on sight? Otherwise this player would not have been allowed to return to play?
 
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