Ask The Ref?

AllSports12

Moderator
Offense driving with the ball at the end of the half/game. No time outs left and clock is winding down. Offensive player is tackled in bounds and the offensive team tries to line up quickly to spike the ball and stop the clock. They snap the ball with 1 second but they have an illegal formation/motion. The penalty is called and the clock stops at 1 second. Do they get another play or should there be a run off?
First, under NFHS Rules, there is no time run off for fouls or injuries that occur with less than one minute remaining in a half.

Next, a foul for illegal motion or illegal formation (these are live ball fouls at the snap) would only be enforced if the offended team accepted the penalty. (the defense would be nuts to do so and no official would even make that offer available to them)

Had there foul been a live ball foul against the opponent in this situation (illegal participation, holding, facemask...etc...) then the offended team would most certainly accept the penalty and the half would be extended with an untimed down.
 
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ideliver

Active member
I get there’s no time run off.

This scenario happened last night in the JFK-NC game at the end of the first half.

NC spilled the ball with 1 sec but they were not lined up and guys were still moving. The refs threw the flag and stopped the clock with 1 sec.They enforced the penalty and ran another play.

In my mind - the only way they could stop the clock was to create a penalty. They did and got another play. Doesn’t seem correct application of the rules.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I get there’s no time run off.

This scenario happened last night in the JFK-NC game at the end of the first half.

NC spilled the ball with 1 sec but they were not lined up and guys were still moving. The refs threw the flag and stopped the clock with 1 sec.They enforced the penalty and ran another play.

In my mind - the only way they could stop the clock was to create a penalty. They did and got another play. Doesn’t seem correct application of the rules.
The result of the play is an incomplete forward pass. The clock stopped due to the incomplete pass... (spiked ball) That would be the case regardless an illegal shift foul (which is what you described >> more than two people moving without all becoming set for one second prior to the snap). In other words, even had the offense been legally set at the snap, there still would have been 1 second left on the clock due to the incomplete forward pass. (spike)

The team was properly penalized a distance of 5 yards (I hope) and the down replayed. Had there been no time on the clock, the defense would have declined the penalty and the half would have ended.
 

ideliver

Active member
The
The result of the play is an incomplete forward pass. The clock stopped due to the incomplete pass... (spiked ball) That would be the case regardless an illegal shift foul (which is what you described >> more than two people moving without all becoming set for one second prior to the snap). In other words, even had the offense been legally set at the snap, there still would have been 1 second left on the clock due to the incomplete forward pass. (spike)

The team was properly penalized a distance of 5 yards (I hope) and the down replayed. Had there been no time on the clock, the defense would have declined the penalty and the half would have ended.
Gotcha.

It seems counterintuitive that you can get rewarded (another play) when you couldn’t get the original play off in time.

So...when the clock is winding. Don’t even bother to try to line up properly. Just run up under center and spike it. Even if all your guys are moving and all over the place.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
So...when the clock is winding. Don’t even bother to try to line up properly. Just run up under center and spike it. Even if all your guys are moving and all over the place.
If a Referee judges that a team has attempted to illegally conserve time, then he can direct the clock to start on his ready for play signal instead of on the snap. (Rule 3-4-6)
 

bb9

Active member
If a Referee judges that a team has attempted to illegally conserve time, then he can direct the clock to start on his ready for play signal instead of on the snap. (Rule 3-4-6)
I was thinking this too. Conserve/consume is definitely in play here.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I was thinking this too. Conserve/consume is definitely in play here.
Maybe, maybe not.... Certainly would have too see it to make that judgment.

What is for sure here is that the incomplete forward pass caused the clock to stop, foul committed or not. The offense will have the opportunity to run another play.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
1-10.
*Offensive holding.
*Defensive dead ball personal foul.

Officials marked off the ten yards back, 15 yards forward for both penalties.

Replay down.
1st and 5.

Correct? or first and ten?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
1-10.
*Offensive holding.
*Defensive dead ball personal foul.

Officials marked off the ten yards back, 15 yards forward for both penalties.

Replay down.
1st and 5.

Correct? or first and ten?
It depends on the spot of the foul. In this case it looks like the foul was at the line of scrimmage. If so, then 1st and 5 is correct.

If not, we could have a problem ;)
 
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thavoice

Well-known member
It depends on the spot of the foul. In this case it looks like the foul was at the line of scrimmage. If so, then 1st and 5 is correct.

If not, we have a problem ;)
It was around there.

I knew they did the whole step thing correctly, but I was uncertain if it would be first and whatever yardage was left or first and ten since there was a personal foul.

Another question: Can you return a short FG provided it does not cross the goal line?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
It was around there.

I knew they did the whole step thing correctly, but I was uncertain if it would be first and whatever yardage was left or first and ten since there was a personal foul.

Another question: Can you return a short FG provided it does not cross the goal line?
Yes on the FG attempt that does not break the goal line plane.

As far as the penalty situation that you describe, there are a number of things the dictate the proper enforcement spot. It seems, even without seeing the play, that they got the enforcement correct.

No dead ball foul carries an automatic first down as a part of the penalty.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Illegally handing the ball forward
Illegal forward pass (this includes intentional grounding under NFHS rules)
Illegal touching
Remember when OPI also was a loss of down?
That was the most harsh penalty in the game!
I know its been a minute, but what year did they get rid of that?
 

thavoice

Well-known member
2013. That was also the year the automatic first down was repealed from the DPI penalty.
I have came upon baseball rule myth lists before that I used to print out. That was more on rule myths though.

I think one of y'all, while OHio is grounded this winter, should come up with a comprehensive list, in layman's terms, of the rules differences in HS/NFL and College.

So many fans get confused on Friday nights as they compare the rules with the NFL. I think that would be a great list and helpful for all!
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I have came upon baseball rule myth lists before that I used to print out. That was more on rule myths though.

I think one of y'all, while OHio is grounded this winter, should come up with a comprehensive list, in layman's terms, of the rules differences in HS/NFL and College.

So many fans get confused on Friday nights as they compare the rules with the NFL. I think that would be a great list and helpful for all!
A pretty good comparison for FED and NCAA rules. Will take most of the winter to put into words....


As far as the NFL, it would take most of the winter to break it all down.... However, here's a quick synopsis of 10 differences from 2016

 

pcbuck

Active member
Is the penalty targeting or unnecessary roughness?
Does it matter that the QB had the ball in his left hand (he is right handed) and was not attempting to pass?
He isn't defenseless and lowers his shoulder.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Is the penalty targeting or unnecessary roughness?
Does it matter that the QB had the ball in his left hand (he is right handed) and was not attempting to pass?
He isn't defenseless and lowers his shoulder.
Rule 2-20-2
Targeting is an act by any player who takes aim and initiates contact against an opponent above the shoulders with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulders

This video above is a text book targeting foul. Personal Foul, Illegal Helmet Contact, Targeting is the call.

Makes no matter where the ball was or whether or not there was an attempt to pass.

A runner that lowers his shoulders does not absolve the defender from taking aim, and initiating contact with his helmet. In the video, #7 is bringing the runner to the ground via a legal tackle and his teammate takes aim with his head, contacting the runner above the shoulders.
 
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pcbuck

Active member
Rule 2-20-2
Targeting is an act by any player who takes aim and initiates contact against an opponent above the shoulders with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulders

This video above is a text book targeting foul. Personal Foul, Illegal Helmet Contact, Targeting is the call.

Makes no matter where the ball was or whether or not there was an attempt to pass.

A runner that lowers his shoulders does not absolve the defender from taking aim, and initiating contact with his helmet. In the video, #7 is bringing the runner to the ground via a legal tackle and his teammate takes aim with his head, contacting the runner above the shoulders.
That's fine. I don't disagree with what you are saying. What makes the contact in this play different?
Both are not defenseless runners who lower their shoulder. In this clip #24 makes contact to the runners helmet.
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
Back in the day, late 40s 50s, the Browns ran a play with their punt return team. As soon as they fielded the punt they would line up and run a QB sneak. They'd catch the kicking team with 15 or more players on the field and pick up 5 yards. Could a play like that be run at any level today? High school, college or pro?
 
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bb9

Active member
That's fine. I don't disagree with what you are saying. What makes the contact in this play different?
Both are not defenseless runners who lower their shoulder. In this clip #24 makes contact to the runners helmet.
The difference is there is really no launch on this play. The "taking aim" that AS12 mentioned. The other play, the defender turned himself into a projectile and led with his helmet. This play does not have that.
 

pcbuck

Active member
The difference is there is really no launch on this play. The "taking aim" that AS12 mentioned. The other play, the defender turned himself into a projectile and led with his helmet. This play does not have that.
That makes sense. Thanks for your reply.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Back in the day, late 40s 50s, the Browns ran a play with their punt return team. As soon as they fielded the punt they would line up and run a QB sneak. They'd catch the kicking team with 15 or more players on the field and pick up 5 yards. Could a play like that be run at any level today? High school, college or pro?
No. The teams do not dictate when the ball is made ready for play, the officials do.

On a change of possession the Referee will give both teams a reasonable amount of time to get their 11 players on the field before he makes the ball ready for play.

In the NCAA or the NFL, many times there will be an official's time out for television after a change of possession.
 
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