Ask The Ref?

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
1. You are correct. NFHS still differentiates between illegal substitution and illegal participation. A 15-yard penalty for IP in that situation is correct.

2. There is no such thing as “illegal procedure.” I’m assuming you mean illegal formation. Yes, live-ball fouls by both teams cancel and the down is replayed. The yardage of each foul is irrelevant. If the officials ruled the personal foul was a dead ball foul (they didn’t in your play), both fouls would be enforced.
No mics on the officials. So it probably was illegal formation. Just went by what the announcer said.

Glad the officials got the calls right even though I disagree with those particular rules. Seems crazy that a technical issue can offset a player safety issue. We really thought the officials were deciding whether the player should be tossed out of the game because of the severity of the play.
 

zebrastripes

Well-known member
No mics on the officials. So it probably was illegal formation. Just went by what the announcer said.

Glad the officials got the calls right even though I disagree with those particular rules. Seems crazy that a technical issue can offset a player safety issue. We really thought the officials were deciding whether the player should be tossed out of the game because of the severity of the play.
Good reason not to give too much credence to announcers. ;)
 

zebrastripes

Well-known member
What is the high school signal that equates to “illegal procedure” in the pros? Is it simply “false start”?
The “rolling fists” is used for the following fouls under NFHS rules...

-Free kick infraction
-Free kick out of bounds
-Snap infraction
-False start
-Illegal formation
-Illegal numbering

There are a couple other rare fouls that use this signal but these are the ones normally seen.

There is no such foul as “illegal procedure” under any rules set (and no referee should use that term). There are fouls that are colloquially called “procedure” fouls in football, but that term itself has no rules basis.
 
I have seen a delay of game called on the home team when the combination of team entering the field and band leaving delays the scheduled start. This occurred a couple years ago during senior night.

Last night home team was recognizing boys and girls golf teams between 1st and 2nd quarters and were still on the field being announced when the ball was initially whistled ready to play. Shortly after the Referee looked down field and saw the issue and stopped action before it started. Away team had the ball and I was surprised there was not a delay of game on the home team. Away team coaches did not say anything.

Should there have been a delay of game on home team or other penalty for interfering with flow of game?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I have seen a delay of game called on the home team when the combination of team entering the field and band leaving delays the scheduled start. This occurred a couple years ago during senior night.

Last night home team was recognizing boys and girls golf teams between 1st and 2nd quarters and were still on the field being announced when the ball was initially whistled ready to play. Shortly after the Referee looked down field and saw the issue and stopped action before it started. Away team had the ball and I was surprised there was not a delay of game on the home team. Away team coaches did not say anything.

Should there have been a delay of game on home team or other penalty for interfering with flow of game?
No, you wait it out, let the kids get the recognition they deserve and move on.

If it turns into a major delay, contact the league and relay your experience with them If warranted, they can mete out any penalties.

I
 
No, you wait it out, let the kids get the recognition they deserve and move on.

If it turns into a major delay, contact the league and relay your experience with them If warranted, they can mete out any penalties.

I
I am okay with that but have a problem with the delay because the band is not off the field at 7:00. And I see ref's watching that every week home and away.
 

Mokforce

New member
And a perfect example of why it's nearly impossible to say whether or not officials ruled correclty or incorrectly on plays here.... one says "tossed" another says "knocked" .... both saw the same play, but differently.... ( nice catch on the illegal forward pass ;) )

Another question to be asked that could affect the ruling..... the snap was fumbled and Bradley "nicks the kick"....

Did the holder secure the ball before the kick or was the ball on the ground without the holder securing the ball?
Clearing things up here,

The kick was ruled to be legal as it was secured by the holder before the kick. The kick was mishit and never got more than two feet off the ground. After a brief conference it was determined that the ball was indeed swatted out of the hand of the Bradley player (thus negating the need to know if it was a backward or forward pass).
 
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toledomansfield

Active member
a coach approached me and said he read in the rule book and an inadvertent facemask penalty is enforced differently if it occurs behind the los. I think it is simple. five yards from the end of the run. replay the down unless the line to gain is crossed. can someone clarify?
 
We've had several threads like this in the various forums and we have a certified official that is willing to answer questions about the rules of the game. Feel free to ask the questions in this thread.
how much can a player play on Friday night and still be able to play on Saturday morning? They starting FS for varsity is also the only QB for the JV and they have had to cancel two JV games saying the QB played too much on Friday, was just curious
 

zebrastripes

Well-known member
how much can a player play on Friday night and still be able to play on Saturday morning? They starting FS for varsity is also the only QB for the JV and they have had to cancel two JV games saying the QB played too much on Friday, was just curious
Directly from the OHSAA football regulations...

1.5) QUARTERS AND GAME LIMITATIONS 1.51A) 9th-12th grade student is limited to playing: a) A maximum of four quarters in one day. b) A maximum of 50 quarters per season (excluding OHSAA tournaments). 1.51B) 7th & 8th grade student is limited to playing: a) A maximum of four quarters in one day. b) A maximum of 32 quarters per season (28 quarters if seven regular season games are scheduled). 1.52) Any player who participates in two or more consecutive downs in one quarter shall be charged with one quarter of play. A down in which the offensive team is in a scrimmage kick formation or a free kick occurs does not count in the quarter limitation. A down repeated due to penalty 2019-2020 FOOTBALL SPORTS REGULATIONS 130 does not count. Note: This is not the formula for Competitive Balance rostering.
 

Mokforce

New member
The coach read the book incorrectly.
There IS however a caveat on how an incidental face mask penalty affected the enforcement on roughing the passer, so maybe that is how the coach got tripped up. "Roughing the passer is 15 yards and a first down from the dead ball spot when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and A has possession of the ball at the end of the down and there has been no change of team possession and the foul is not for an incidental face mask, or otherwise 15 yards and first down from the previous spot.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
There IS however a caveat on how an incidental face mask penalty affected the enforcement on roughing the passer, so maybe that is how the coach got tripped up. "Roughing the passer is 15 yards and a first down from the dead ball spot when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and A has possession of the ball at the end of the down and there has been no change of team possession and the foul is not for an incidental face mask, or otherwise 15 yards and first down from the previous spot.
Yes..... However, the question was specifically mentioned an inadvertent FM foul. When we bring "what if's" into our answers on here it tends only to muddy the waters.

Let's keep it simple on here...... Thanks.....
 

toledomansfield

Active member
another fairly simple one. A referee thinks a player is displaying symptoms of a concussion. He sends the player off. can the player be diagnosed by medical personnel and be put back into the game.
 

toledomansfield

Active member
I talk to coaches, athletic trainers and ad's who all say a trainer on the sideline can send them back in. how can I convince them that they are breaking state law.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I talk to coaches, athletic trainers and ad's who all say a trainer on the sideline can send them back in. how can I convince them that they are breaking state law.
Point them to the OHSAA Sport Regulations as I doubt anyone would have a copy of anything related to ORC....

If you are an official and have a Gold Book at the field you can refer to that. If you have to stop play to show them the reg, it will cost them a time out....

Other than that tell them to trust you and they can thank you later for potentially saving them their jobs.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
If medical professionals are present, I will let them determine if a player exhibits signs, symptoms, or behaviors consistent with having sustained a concussion or head injury. If not, I will encourage the coach to make the appropriate decision.

O.R.C. 3313.539 Concussions and school athletics.

(D) If a student practicing for or competing in an interscholastic athletic event exhibits signs, symptoms, or behaviors consistent with having sustained a concussion or head injury while participating in the practice or competition, the student shall be removed from the practice or competition by either of the following:

(1) The individual who is serving as the student's coach during that practice or competition;

(2) An individual who is serving as a referee during that practice or competition.

(1) If a student is removed from practice or competition under division (D) of this section, the coach or referee who removed the student shall not allow the student, on the same day the student is removed, to return to that practice or competition or to participate in any other practice or competition for which the coach or referee is responsible. Thereafter, the coach or referee shall not allow the student to return to that practice or competition or to participate in any other practice or competition for which the coach or referee is responsible until both of the following conditions are satisfied:

(a) The student's condition is assessed by any of the following who has complied with the requirements in division (E)(4) of this section:

(i) A physician;

(ii) A licensed health care professional the school district board of education or governing authority of the chartered or nonchartered nonpublic school, pursuant to division (E)(2) of this section, authorizes to assess a student who has been removed from practice or competition under division (D) of this section;

(iii) A licensed health care professional who meets the minimum education requirements established by rules adopted under section 3707.521 of the Revised Code by the professional's licensing agency.

(b) The student receives written clearance that it is safe for the student to return to practice or competition from the physician or licensed health care professional who assessed the student's condition.
 

toledomansfield

Active member
I am spitting into the wind here. my people are adamant. is the confusion coming from this?

"If a student is removed from practice or competition under division (D) of this section, the coach or referee who removed the student shall not allow the student, on the same day the student is removed, to return to that practice or competition or to participate in any other practice or competition for which the coach or referee is responsible. Thereafter, the coach or referee shall not allow the student to return to that practice or competition or to participate in any other practice or competition for which the coach or referee is responsible until both of the following conditions are satisfied:"
 

toledomansfield

Active member
"the child was holding his head complaining of a headache. he was doing that while you and the trainer were standing next to him. Can you recite the signs and symptoms of a concussion?"
 

toledomansfield

Active member
I was doing a pee wee game one day early in this law. the kid was laying on the ground holding his helmet groaning in pain. I told his coach the kid was done. the coach was furious. turns out he was also the kids dad. said I didn't have the ability to hold his kid out. I stood my ground. kid didn't play. 2 weeks later I had same team, kid in shorts on the sideline with a concussion. you would of thought the father would thank me. he didn't. got a 15 yarder unsportsmanlike later. still hates me.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I have seen a delay of game called on the home team when the combination of team entering the field and band leaving delays the scheduled start. This occurred a couple years ago during senior night.

Last night home team was recognizing boys and girls golf teams between 1st and 2nd quarters and were still on the field being announced when the ball was initially whistled ready to play. Shortly after the Referee looked down field and saw the issue and stopped action before it started. Away team had the ball and I was surprised there was not a delay of game on the home team. Away team coaches did not say anything.

Should there have been a delay of game on home team or other penalty for interfering with flow of game?
am all for officials keeping the game moving but this seems heaavy handed. Was a JH contest whher the two games took 4 plus hours as the official let teams practically take a full TO between each possession, allowing up to a minute between plays, Don t think they even kept the time and it was brutal.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I was doing a pee wee game one day early in this law. the kid was laying on the ground holding his helmet groaning in pain. I told his coach the kid was done. the coach was furious. turns out he was also the kids dad. said I didn't have the ability to hold his kid out. I stood my ground. kid didn't play. 2 weeks later I had same team, kid in shorts on the sideline with a concussion. you would of thought the father would thank me. he didn't. got a 15 yarder unsportsmanlike later. still hates me.
Toledo.... after reading your posts regarding this, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at....

As zebra noted, If while working a game where we have trainers, MD's or DO's present ( we should always ask prior to the game if they are present ) we will step aside and have one of those professionals examine the player. Approach it no differently than if a player remains down after a play, summon the pros onto the field and step away...... A pee wee game is a whole different ball game as typically you don't have professionals on hand to tend to players.....

Those people have the responsibility to keep a player out and follow the protocol mandated by both OHSAA regulation and Ohio Law. If a trainer or a coach wants to put their career's and financial well being on the, so be it.

In the rare instance that a player has suffered a head injury and the pros do not restrict that player, then we, like on every play have to be aware and may have to step in and have the player removed after observing the signs, symptoms, and behaviors associated with a head injury... Our game report will highlight the events that occurred up to that point..... we have done our job.
 
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toledomansfield

Active member
i think the spirit and the letter of the law is asking us to protect kids. I know there are plenty of programs that would gladly sacrifice kid safety to win a game. Hell, a parent is willing to do it.

I think that if you witness a kid showing symptoms of a concussion and just because there is medical staff on hand saying the kid is fine absolves you of your responsibility as a referee. In my mind the law is plain. if a kid shows signs, he/she is done for the day.
 
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