Another Weekend Of Youth Basketball.... Another Weekend Of Fights

AllSports12

Moderator
No. These officials are the only people willing to do these games........this number of games. I know guys who do 10-12 games a day. Know why? Because the tournament host can't find people to do 3-4 games and then bring in another group of officials to do 3-4 more games.
They are willing because they are in it solely for the money. The vast majority of good officials stay away from this crap for the reason I, and other officials stated... (you did too)
my solution to this beyond playing the officials more is to just let teams and coaches into the games. no parents
and with the money motivator (parents = entry fees, and stay to play kickbacks from hotels just to name a couople) gone...

You have no tournaments.... (which is probably a good thing in the long run)
 
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AllSports12

Moderator
Last weekend at a Little League "championship" game in Kentucky...


There's another raw video of this out there taken by a mother who after criticizing the actions of the alleged adults, says.... "where's my f-ing kid?"...

Classic....
 

green_genes

Active member
Last weekend at a Little League "championship" game in Kentucky...


There's another raw video of this out there taken by a mother who after criticizing the actions of the alleged adults, says.... "I'm gonna get my f-ing kid outta here"...

Classic....

T-ball. They said it was T-ball.

Now I feel dirty for having my kids skip T-ball because we didn't keep score and no one ever made an out.
 

Irish60

Well-known member
Yeah, I let that part out..... Freaking T-Ball championship.....

Why are there even umpires?
And people will use Covid as an excuse for this behavior... They'll say something like, "Well, people have been locked up so long they've forgotten how to interact with others anymore..." Which is just a pathetic excuse. If you're an idiot, you're an idiot. And Covid has nothing to do with it. It reminds me of an old Bill Cosby routine... "I asked someone why they use cocaine. They said because it 'intensifies your personality'. So I said, OK, but what if you're an a**hole!?!"
 
I have been following this thread for awhile. There are so many examples of pure embarrassment, but a T-Ball Championship Game? This one might take the cake (for now). People were angry before COVID. I agree with Irish60. No excuse for this...
 

umpire16

Member
Yeah, I let that part out..... Freaking T-Ball championship.....

Why are there even umpires?
That was my thought. In our part of the state there are 7 and under coach pitch 'select' teams that want HS umpires. Why? The nine dads on the bench cannot call safes and outs? And then you have an umpire and this stuff happens. I suppose if it's a HS certified person their thought is that more game management may happen, but I assume the umpires doing these games are new and inexperienced anyway.

If I recall it's something like 5 pitches per kid and 6 runs per inning. So the umpire stands there on the bases and calls safes and outs and keeps track of innings and runs. Games are an hour and pay like $40.

Of course now that I type this, maybe that's a good way to go this weekend versus the three legion games I have in the high heat. ;)
 

umpire16

Member
And people will use Covid as an excuse for this behavior... They'll say something like, "Well, people have been locked up so long they've forgotten how to interact with others anymore..." Which is just a pathetic excuse. If you're an idiot, you're an idiot. And Covid has nothing to do with it. It reminds me of an old Bill Cosby routine... "I asked someone why they use cocaine. They said because it 'intensifies your personality'. So I said, OK, but what if you're an a**hole!?!"
This was happening LONG before COVID. My son and I were shooting hoops the other weekend at our rec center/sports complex and there was alot of yelling coming from a little league game. My son asked if he could play baseball next year. And part of me was like hmmm.
 

green_genes

Active member
That was my thought. In our part of the state there are 7 and under coach pitch 'select' teams that want HS umpires. Why? The nine dads on the bench cannot call safes and outs? And then you have an umpire and this stuff happens. I suppose if it's a HS certified person their thought is that more game management may happen, but I assume the umpires doing these games are new and inexperienced anyway.

If I recall it's something like 5 pitches per kid and 6 runs per inning. So the umpire stands there on the bases and calls safes and outs and keeps track of innings and runs. Games are an hour and pay like $40.

Of course now that I type this, maybe that's a good way to go this weekend versus the three legion games I have in the high heat. ;)

When my 25 year old was playing coach pitch (18 years ago - not 25 and still in coach pitch, although he probably still couldn't hit) the opposing coach stopped the game with 2 outs in the last inning to complain that our coach was standing too close to the plate when he pitched. Basically, a 4' tall six year old who couldn't swing a t-ball bat was up with the bases loaded and two outs. Our team was behind by 4 runs - rules were that you could score 5 per inning. Opposing coach - a father of a 6 or 7 year old himself - wanted to make sure the 6 year old on our team struck out so his team would win a community-based coach pitch game.

The 12 year old who was umpiring had to get the league commissioner out of the concession stand to make a ruling. Opposing coach had measured the legal distance before the game and waited until two outs in the bottom of the 5th to bring it up. When the commissioner ruled that our coach could stand wherever he wanted the opposing coach stood behind the backstop and stared him down.

Good times.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
When my 25 year old was playing coach pitch (18 years ago - not 25 and still in coach pitch, although he probably still couldn't hit) the opposing coach stopped the game with 2 outs in the last inning to complain that our coach was standing too close to the plate when he pitched. Basically, a 4' tall six year old who couldn't swing a t-ball bat was up with the bases loaded and two outs. Our team was behind by 4 runs - rules were that you could score 5 per inning. Opposing coach - a father of a 6 or 7 year old himself - wanted to make sure the 6 year old on our team struck out so his team would win a community-based coach pitch game.

The 12 year old who was umpiring had to get the league commissioner out of the concession stand to make a ruling. Opposing coach had measured the legal distance before the game and waited until two outs in the bottom of the 5th to bring it up. When the commissioner ruled that our coach could stand wherever he wanted the opposing coach stood behind the backstop and stared him down.

Good times.
parents are the worst.
some one coach, a MOM, in Tball who would go to the batters box for each hitter and mark where she wanted the front and back foot would be, knowig that pretty much set it motion where they hit the ball. It was pathetic. They would win easily as they also were a team who didnt throw to bases to get anyone out. just to the pitcher or ran to a base and waited for a tag.
 

yakyak

Well-known member
The bigger and more relevant thread is what to do about the problem? Personally, I would have a zero tolerance policy. Somehow, any misbehavior and the whole game is over both sides and we head home. No warnings. Separate this duty from the umpires. Each event needs a site monitor (again not the umpire/ref) that just shuts it down on the spot. No refunds.

I would do the same for coaches and how they interact with the umpire/ref.

I know not likely or even practical, but thats what was on my mind. How else could you fix it?
 

jtk

Well-known member
just saw on twitter from tricia macke that there was another brawl this weekend. not sure where it was? maybe at griffin? sorry, don't know how to share?

jtk
()
 

Kurt Rambis

Active member
2 things:

1) We need to get to a point, unfortunately, that the MOMENT a parent starts towards the court or field, the game is called a forfeit, team banned, police called. There's only one way this will end. Consequences.

2) Perhaps AD's will start getting a little more love for being able to handle crazy parents a little better than gym owners do
 
This goes back to something I mentioned awhile back. People know they are being filmed. I know it is not the entirety of the problem, but I do believe some of this would be dialed back a bit if cell phones were not documenting everything. That footage looked bad. Today's kids are not learning anything from this behavior other than fighting is the only way to settle a dispute.
 

Talk some sense

Active member
This goes back to something I mentioned awhile back. People know they are being filmed. I know it is not the entirety of the problem, but I do believe some of this would be dialed back a bit if cell phones were not documenting everything. That footage looked bad. Today's kids are not learning anything from this behavior other than fighting is the only way to settle a dispute.
On the other hand, knowing that stuff like this gets filmed may actually deter some people from acting out. Who knows?
 

Gbulldog

Well-known member
2 things:

1) We need to get to a point, unfortunately, that the MOMENT a parent starts towards the court or field, the game is called a forfeit, team banned, police called. There's only one way this will end. Consequences.

2) Perhaps AD's will start getting a little more love for being able to handle crazy parents a little better than gym owners do
Also...what surprises me (or it doesnt) is that the coaches don't corral all the players and either get them to the bench or locker room. It like its a free for all. The players milling around and getting involved with the fans is a joke.
 

??????

Active member
In Cincinnati at a place known for ignoring poor behavior.


We'll see if any more video surfaces. From what I'm told.... it was bad.
I would agree they definitely need to stop this, but I've seen way worse countless times 30/40 years ago. Parents fighting, coaches fighting, fans fighting, before, during and after games. It's bad, but it has always been bad, we just didn't have video. Millions more games and millions more videos nowadays.
 

scbuckeye99

Well-known member
I would agree they definitely need to stop this, but I've seen way worse countless times 30/40 years ago. Parents fighting, coaches fighting, fans fighting, before, during and after games. It's bad, but it has always been bad, we just didn't have video. Millions more games and millions more videos nowadays.
Agreed. There's a reason why those of us over 40 exclaim how lucky we all are that social media did not exist when we were in high school / college.
 

yakyak

Well-known member
Increase team entry fees, remove all spectators. The basketball is awful to watch, even on the nike and addidas tours, no one is there as a fan but just supporting a family member. Allow college coaches and media who report on such things. Raise entry feeds to offset the gate prices.
 

Kurt Rambis

Active member
Also...what surprises me (or it doesnt) is that the coaches don't corral all the players and either get them to the bench or locker room. It like its a free for all. The players milling around and getting involved with the fans is a joke.
not many of these "coaches" are real coaches.
 

umpire16

Member
The bigger and more relevant thread is what to do about the problem? Personally, I would have a zero tolerance policy. Somehow, any misbehavior and the whole game is over both sides and we head home. No warnings. Separate this duty from the umpires. Each event needs a site monitor (again not the umpire/ref) that just shuts it down on the spot. No refunds.

I would do the same for coaches and how they interact with the umpire/ref.

I know not likely or even practical, but thats what was on my mind. How else could you fix it?
But who enforces this? I see cases all the time where a parent gets out of line at a youth sporting event and we hear "they're banned for life from this league." Ok, but who manages that? What about away games? What about the next year in a different league? What about high school? Unless there is some magical database that we keep and every Mom and Pop ticket/admission taker looks at it for everyone trying to get in, we continue this issue.

I would say less than 10% of my games have a "site manager" or "site supervisor" for non-interscholastic games. In HS it's usually the head coach for baseball, there's the AD in other sports, but in the summer it's a 16 year old kid getting paid $50 for the day with no time to look up from their phone except to take money and listen to me ask for more baseballs because TD's are cheapskates.

I don't know what the long-term solution is in this moment. My kids are entering sports and I am personally not looking forward to the other parents. I already sit away from them in their skills practices they do. Competitive level is going to be a show for sure.
 

umpire16

Member
On the other hand, knowing that stuff like this gets filmed may actually deter some people from acting out. Who knows?
I agree. Would you really want to act up knowing there are 50 cameras about to document what you're doing?

Seems like a lack of adulting to me in a lot of cases. Grow up people.
 

umpire16

Member
Increase team entry fees, remove all spectators. The basketball is awful to watch, even on the nike and addidas tours, no one is there as a fan but just supporting a family member. Allow college coaches and media who report on such things. Raise entry feeds to offset the gate prices.
About 25 years ago I got my start in officiating doing soccer. I was 12. There was a weekend where there were no parents there at any games we worked. The local travel league called it "silent Saturday" and told parents that because of their behavior they were not welcome for this one weekend. Police were there periodically checking on it. We played all games efficiently. Teams were almost excited to be out there. Coaches were very calm. It was an enjoyable experience to say the least, and I still remember this from 1996 meaning it had that much of an impact on me. All you heard were whistles, coaches, and the banter on the field. I don't remember having one issue with anyone.

The rest of the season was fairly calm from what I recall. Did it work? Maybe. 'I can only imagine the lawsuits and issues today if they tried this.

As to entry fees I think they would still be paid. Tourneys in my neck of the woods (BBK and BSB) are astronomical but they still get paid and teams still come. As much grumbling as there is, if teams really felt this way they would back out. But instead they just need more $ and parents blindly pay it either directly or through fundraisers.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
- The tournaments are designed for one purpose.

$$$

- The TD's aren't going to do anything that will deter teams from out of town from booking their event. The Pay-to-Stay component is a lucrative part of their income stream.

- 30-40yrs ago? I was making my bones in officiating back then.... Not even close the crap that goes on today. 30-40yrs ago you had Division 1 NCAA officials working youth games....... Not any more. The best of the HS officials now say "no mas" to this garbage. Until officials demand that the pay is increased and the TD's support the officials, all you will have is the vast majority of games being worked by people who are perfectly fine with the $20-$25 fee. (and have no interest whatsoever in sharpening their skills in order to advance in their own officiating career)
 

thavoice

Well-known member
- The tournaments are designed for one purpose.

$$$

- The TD's aren't going to do anything that will deter teams from out of town from booking their event. The Pay-to-Stay component is a lucrative part of their income stream.

- 30-40yrs ago? I was making my bones in officiating back then.... Not even close the crap that goes on today. 30-40yrs ago you had Division 1 NCAA officials working youth games....... Not any more. The best of the HS officials now say "no mas" to this garbage. Until officials demand that the pay is increased and the TD's support the officials, all you will have is the vast majority of games being worked by people who are perfectly fine with the $20-$25 fee. (and have no interest whatsoever in sharpening their skills in order to advance in their own officiating career)
Money.
Grab.

That is what youth sports is all about these days.
$$$ under the guise they are getting "looks" and "promoted".

It is complete BS.

TD's make some good jack on the backs of these parents.
I love to read the fine print at the youth baseball tournaments. Scout event. Showcase. ETC. Oooooh, stats get sent to a lot of coaches/scouts. They dont GAF about stats at a random weekend tournament.
A 'scout and a gun' at each field. Ooooooo. BFD.

A grand to get into the tournament, 25 bucks a person (6 and under free....gee thanks PBR) to attend, kickback from hotels on a must stay to play tournament (if you book through the links given to you then you are a fool....).


I fell for that pay to stay.

Once.

IF we even decide to stay at the hotel the others are at I book separate with my discounts. Most recently saved $60/night on my own.
 

??????

Active member
- The tournaments are designed for one purpose.

$$$

- The TD's aren't going to do anything that will deter teams from out of town from booking their event. The Pay-to-Stay component is a lucrative part of their income stream.

- 30-40yrs ago? I was making my bones in officiating back then.... Not even close the crap that goes on today. 30-40yrs ago you had Division 1 NCAA officials working youth games....... Not any more. The best of the HS officials now say "no mas" to this garbage. Until officials demand that the pay is increased and the TD's support the officials, all you will have is the vast majority of games being worked by people who are perfectly fine with the $20-$25 fee. (and have no interest whatsoever in sharpening their skills in order to advance in their own officiating career
I agree the yelling at officials has probably become more severe and frequent from parents, but far less severe from cheering sections. In my neck of the woods, grade school Catholic tourneys in Cincy, and GCl high school games, the fights were worse back then. I've been to AAU games the past 5 yrs and been around hundreds of games and only watched one skirmish. Nothing like I witnessed in grade school tourneys during the 80s. Beer was sold and was consumed heavily, by both parents and coaches and sometimes refs. We didn't have cameras or social medias to post it. Seems like a lot of people just post fights so they can denounce it to make themselves feel good and get "likes. Sounds like you might be a bit bitter about getting lowballed on ref wages.
 
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