Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

isadore said:
slave owning is not a sin, really, maybe in your value system it is ok to own and treat other human beings as property.
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Please find the biblical passage where it lists owning slaves as a sin. Tell us the verse that Jesus and/or God told his followers to free their slaves - except Hebrew men. Then list out the people mentioned in the Bible that had slaves.
 
SWMCinci said:
Please find the biblical passage where it lists owning slaves as a sin. Tell us the verse that Jesus and/or God told his followers to free their slaves - except Hebrew men. Then list out the people mentioned in the Bible that had slaves.
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Sin

Oxford Dictionary

an offence against God or against a religious or moral law.

Merriam Webster

an offense against religious or moral law.

Owning slaves is an offense against moral law.
 
winbypin said:
Awww. Harry is trying.
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Not really just channeling you. You didn’t notice the likeness ? I wanted to know what it was like to look at things like you do . Very simply . Spelling , grammar , usage . You know what people do when they really don’t know anything or have any real game ? Like a mascot
 
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isadore said:
gosh a ruddies, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Franklin, Hamilton and Jay all thought chattel slavery was evil and that was two hundred plus years ago.
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And with the exception of Adams, each of them owned and purchased slaves. Several of them owned slaves throughout their lives. The fact that they grew to think of slavery was evil actually makes the case for enlightenment and the eventual belief that slavery was an immoral institution. While there are core morals, other morals develop and change over time. 50 years ago in this country gay people were shunned and doctors considered gayness to be a mental disorder, and in most religions it was a sin - in most of the Muslim world it still is of course slavery also exists in those nations as well. So even today, many people and some religions don't necessarily find slavery to be immoral or evil.
 
isadore said:
and your point is? 300 years of chattel slavery in during what is defined as the Modern Era which began in 1500 is a disgrace to its practitioners and their defenders.
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If you are judging people by modern sensibilities, you don't get to pick the starting date to do so. Obviously Egyptians were the most evil people in the history of the world for enslaving an entire race (not just a portion of it) for 400 years. 400 years is more than 300 years so obviously the Jews were the most enslaved people in history - they win! Of course Rome had slaves for the entire 1400 year history of the empire, while Roman slaves were more racially diverse it probably didn't matter to the millions of slaves that served the Roman Empire. So Italians were also monumentally responsible for their actions. It's not just Europeans and Middle Easterners that had slaves, Asians, Africans, South Americans, Australians, and North Americans also practiced slavery from the times more than a few of them gathered to organize. It's been a part of history for every family, every village, every nation on the planet for most of its existence. But then you have to consider that many African countries still practice slavery, even in modern times. As evil as it is, the people that captured and sold so many of their race into slavery for the 300 years you want to relitigate, still practice it.

If it was evil before it was evil over the last 600 years, surely it was evil for the 4 million years hominids have walked the Earth.
 
isadore said:
so says the person who writes
“America's "original sin" wasn't really a sin and wasn't original. "

wow Chattel slavery is not a sin. Unbelievable. Now that is vile propaganda.
Oh and I have never read the 1619 article.
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For the last time:

* In 1776 most of the world did not consider slavery, chattel or otherwise, to be a sin. It was practiced widely throughout the world. There was an EMERGING belief that slavery was morally wrong & a sin. And this emerging belief was almost exclusively centered in the Judaeo Christian West. To their credit, some of our founding fathers were deeply disturbed by slavery but they did not represent the average man & women in the world.

* Even you, in the throes of full on trolling, can't be arguing that there was anything ORIGINAL about America's practice of slavery? The USA inherited slavery from the British Empire and I can't think of anything Americans did in practicing slavery that wasn't done before the US was born. Can you?

In fact the ONLY thing "original"about America's practice of slavery is that it was ended by fighting a bloody civil war. This would be like instead of Spartacus revolting, the Roman Republic had engaged in a civil war to end their practice of slavery. It didn't happen with the Romans and from what I can see it didn't happen anywhere but the USA. Now that's ORIGINAL.

So yes given the prevailing attitudes around the world in 1776 American slavery was not considered to be a sin by the majority and certainly was not original in its practice.

The fact that we consider it a sin today irrelevant.
 
isadore said:
slave owning is not a sin, really, maybe in your value system it is ok to own and treat other human beings as property.
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I would not do it. I don't pretend to define sin by others, either. I'm not qualified, and neither are you.

The Bible accepted slavery as a cultural dynamic, and did not judge it on the whole - just the personal conduct of individual masters.


Truth be told, probably the best thing to happen in the ancestral history of many African Americans is that their great-great-grandmother ran a little slower than her neighbors and got captured.
 
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Harrycrane said:
Demented and sad was a line you must have stolen from John Bender out of Shermer High in a Chicago suburb in the 80's . Anyway , trust me I was grinning and my chest was jutting out from the chuckles . If you can't see the humor I guess you need to see it from my perspective which is impossible
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you are quite odd
 
isadore said:
Section 1505 of Title 18, United States Code, as amended by the Victim and Witness Protection Act of 1982, forbids anyone from corruptly, or by threats of force or by any threatening communication, influencing, obstructing, or impeding any pending proceeding before a department or agency of the United States, or Congress. In 1996 Congress enacted a clarifying amendment to 18 U.S.C. § 1515, which defines the term "corruptly" as used in section 1505 to mean "acting with an improper purpose, personally or by influencing another, including making a false or misleading statement, or withholding, concealing, altering, or destroying a document or other information." False Statements Accountability Act of 1996, Pub. L. No. 104-292, §3, 110 Stat. 3459, 3460.
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None of which trumps "due process", or really is applicable to Congressional hearings, and especially a non-sanctioned Impeachment Inquiry announced in a photo-op press release rather than a roll-call vote to empower a Committee to even issue subpoenas......but whatever.....
 
isadore said:
Sin

Oxford Dictionary

an offence against God or against a religious or moral law.

Merriam Webster

an offense against religious or moral law.

Owning slaves is an offense against moral law.
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YOU are an offense against "moral law"........see how easy that was ?
 
Harrycrane said:
Not really just channeling you. You didn’t notice the likeness ? I wanted to know what it was like to look at things like you do . Very simply . Spelling , grammar , usage . You know what people do when they really don’t know anything or have any real game ? Like a mascot
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Goof. Listen. Nobody is really proof-reading each other in here. Some mistakes go unnoticed, others are noticed but unacknowledged. Yours, however, are often SO bad as to be an affront to anyone that has even seen an episode of Sesame Street. You are a trainwreck.
 
SWMCinci said:
And with the exception of Adams, each of them owned and purchased slaves. Several of them owned slaves throughout their lives. The fact that they grew to think of slavery was evil actually makes the case for enlightenment and the eventual belief that slavery was an immoral institution. While there are core morals, other morals develop and change over time. 50 years ago in this country gay people were shunned and doctors considered gayness to be a mental disorder, and in most religions it was a sin - in most of the Muslim world it still is of course slavery also exists in those nations as well. So even today, many people and some religions don't necessarily find slavery to be immoral or evil.
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Of course the Enlightenment played a major role in their understanding the evil of slavery. And with the more enlightened and brave they move to action Franklin, Hamilton and Jay joining abolition societies and Washington freeing his slaves in his will. But all of them knew the institution was evil. This list includes all the most significant figures of the beginning of our nation. And you can throw in George Mason to the group. They all knew Slavery was evil. This was several decades before the Civil War.
 
SWMCinci said:
If you are judging people by modern sensibilities, you don't get to pick the starting date to do so. Obviously Egyptians were the most evil people in the history of the world for enslaving an entire race (not just a portion of it) for 400 years. 400 years is more than 300 years so obviously the Jews were the most enslaved people in history - they win! Of course Rome had slaves for the entire 1400 year history of the empire, while Roman slaves were more racially diverse it probably didn't matter to the millions of slaves that served the Roman Empire. So Italians were also monumentally responsible for their actions. It's not just Europeans and Middle Easterners that had slaves, Asians, Africans, South Americans, Australians, and North Americans also practiced slavery from the times more than a few of them gathered to organize. It's been a part of history for every family, every village, every nation on the planet for most of its existence. But then you have to consider that many African countries still practice slavery, even in modern times. As evil as it is, the people that captured and sold so many of their race into slavery for the 300 years you want to relitigate, still practice it.

If it was evil before it was evil over the last 600 years, surely it was evil for the 4 million years hominids have walked the Earth.
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But for sure Africans were enslaved in America for three hundred years. From the Spanish colony in St. Augustine up to the 13th Amendment ended it. And in Europe with the rise of the Enlightenment in the 18th Century slavery was becoming seen as more of an evil. The men who founded this country recognized that it was an evil. But the size, scale and continuation of the forced diaspora of Africans to the New World dwarfs the other examples given. The one example you seemed so enamored may not have ever happened. You do know there is very little historical evidence to show that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt.
 
isadore said:
But for sure Africans were enslaved in America for three hundred years. From the Spanish colony in St. Augustine up to the 13th Amendment ended it. And in Europe with the rise of the Enlightenment in the 18th Century slavery was becoming seen as more of an evil. The men who founded this country recognized that it was an evil. But the size, scale and continuation of the forced diaspora of Africans to the New World dwarfs the other examples given. The one example you seemed so enamored may not have ever happened. You do know there is very little historical evidence to show that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt.
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You don't believe in the Holocaust either do you
 
lotr10 said:
For the last time:

* In 1776 most of the world did not consider slavery, chattel or otherwise, to be a sin. It was practiced widely throughout the world. There was an EMERGING belief that slavery was morally wrong & a sin. And this emerging belief was almost exclusively centered in the Judaeo Christian West. To their credit, some of our founding fathers were deeply disturbed by slavery but they did not represent the average man & women in the world.

* Even you, in the throes of full on trolling, can't be arguing that there was anything ORIGINAL about America's practice of slavery? The USA inherited slavery from the British Empire and I can't think of anything Americans did in practicing slavery that wasn't done before the US was born. Can you?

In fact the ONLY thing "original"about America's practice of slavery is that it was ended by fighting a bloody civil war. This would be like instead of Spartacus revolting, the Roman Republic had engaged in a civil war to end their practice of slavery. It didn't happen with the Romans and from what I can see it didn't happen anywhere but the USA. Now that's ORIGINAL.

So yes given the prevailing attitudes around the world in 1776 American slavery was not considered to be a sin by the majority and certainly was not original in its practice.

The fact that we consider it a sin today irrelevant.
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In 1776 it was not important what the rest of the world thought. Hell if we were doing what the rest of the world thought was right, we would not have been revolting against the English. At the founding of this country the men who did it, knew the institution of slavery was wrong, evil, a sin.

We inherited a king from England and we threw him out.

You don’t really understand what was meant by the term “original sin” do you. It does not mean that slavery was different from some earlier forms of enslavement. Original sin means it was here from the beginning of the American experiment. Part of the sin is we knew it was wrong, but allowed it to continue. The man writing the Declaration of Independence knew it was wrong, the Father of the Constitution knew it was wrong, the Father of Our Country knew it was wrong.
 
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