WOW, tough break for Cooper shore!

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Locking hands isn't subjective, you can remove subjectivity from a "takedown on the edge" also, It was a bad call anyway you slice or dice it...and I have no connection to Shore's.

I never met the Shore's or know anything of their program. I do know my son or myself would never have defaulted out and wrestled, likely taking the state championship away from Shore......it's not real hard for men to understand.
It is your opinion it was a bad call... and you are entitled to your opinion... Locking Hands is probably one of the most objective calls but it is still missed/called wrong (fingers touching) in the judgement of officials... I am not offering any opinion on the validity of the call... it obviously has people on this board discussing it with a pro/con division... The call was made no matter which side you feel (pro or con)... everything after that is opinion and feelings about what happened.
 

Jim Behrens

Well-known member
As I figured ....clearly there can be some subjectivity, and by that definition I don't see many interpreting that excessive force. While it doesn't mention a "knee" hitting first, it doesnt take a NASA physicist to understand why thats a big tangible.
A few points since you asked for the way the rule is worded:
1) You also figured the a knee hitting the mat first mattered which is incorrect. That has not been in a rule book for at least 40 years if it ever was.
2) The rule reads "unnecessary" force, not excessive force as you write. If you are trying to prove a point, you need to use what is written in the rule.
3) Yes, there is subjectivity to the application of the rule. That is why there is an official assigned to the contest. Much like stalling, there is always a different view. Think they purposely get it wrong or have it out to get certain teams then you are clueless. I know you won't believe it but rarely does an official know who the wrestlers are.
Bottom line is that the call was made, nothing will change that, and it is time to move on.
 

dion

Active member
Stop with the holier than thou....I've seen many officials do a screw job on an athlete where arrogance is involved. Saw Mattueci throw one out of the state tournament for an arrogant ridiculous call completing screwing a multi state champ his freshman year... MOST are good, but to claim none exhibit bias or arrogance is STUPID. MOST athletes who are on injury time, do NOT DEFAULT and take a win. If they are that injured where a medical person or coach claims they are not able to continue.......they are DONE.
Lighten up Francis
 

Old142

Active member
This "new" generation evidently knows the rule. When you bring a man to the air, YOU'RE responsible for his safe return.
The bad call had nothing to do with breaking" a rule..it was a poor subjective call costing Shore a likely state title. He brought him down like many others bring people to the mat....but the kid pulled a "LEFLOP" and the coach went along.
 

Wrestlinglife

Active member
It was a slam and sure did look to me that the wrestler was in a lot of pain. I have seen slam or unnecessary roughness calls on much less than that.

Now to come back and wrestle after taking the win off the slam is questionable. Someone said why not give it a try? Well then why not finish that match? We don't need this sport turning into basketball or soccer with kids taking dives. You don't see it often in this sport send I'm proud of that.

On the flip side of the coin, we should ease up on the kid who got slammed. We don't know who's decision it was to stop. It's a tough position for a kid to be in and he himself had battled his way to a semi match at State, and I felt terrible for him as he was booed so harshly. I believe he was a senior too so that is likely his last wrestling experience. If he truly does have a serious injury, should he not be cheered for returning the next night to give it a go in the last match of his high school career?

I can understand all sides but wrestling is a family. Let's support these kids. Just because Shore was expected to win doesn't make it right for him to get away with a slam like that and have the wrestling community crush his opponents' heart.
 
I’m used to way less being called a slam where I’m at. Secondly, they’ve always been called this way. Idk why people are suddenly acting like things that have been strictly enforced for a long time before things were so litigious are some new thing…
- like requiring a physical
- Not playing during lightning
- slams
 

Old142

Active member
It was a slam and sure did look to me that the wrestler was in a lot of pain. I have seen slam or unnecessary roughness calls on much less than that.

Now to come back and wrestle after taking the win off the slam is questionable. Someone said why not give it a try? Well then why not finish that match? We don't need this sport turning into basketball or soccer with kids taking dives. You don't see it often in this sport send I'm proud of that.

On the flip side of the coin, we should ease up on the kid who got slammed. We don't know who's decision it was to stop. It's a tough position for a kid to be in and he himself had battled his way to a semi match at State, and I felt terrible for him as he was booed so harshly. I believe he was a senior too so that is likely his last wrestling experience. If he truly does have a serious injury, should he not be cheered for returning the next night to give it a go in the last match of his high school career?

I can understand all sides but wrestling is a family. Let's support these kids. Just because Shore was expected to win doesn't make it right for him to get away with a slam like that and have the wrestling community crush his opponents' heart.
Ultimately it’s on the coach to suggest he continues to compete and take a win that way. Says alot about the coaches character, no one is blaming the kid, his reaction to the mat return had nothing to do with who decided he was too hurt then , but continued to compete.
 

Old142

Active member
It was a slam and sure did look to me that the wrestler was in a lot of pain. I have seen slam or unnecessary roughness calls on much less than that.

Now to come back and wrestle after taking the win off the slam is questionable. Someone said why not give it a try? Well then why not finish that match? We don't need this sport turning into basketball or soccer with kids taking dives. You don't see it often in this sport send I'm proud of that.

On the flip side of the coin, we should ease up on the kid who got slammed. We don't know who's decision it was to stop. It's a tough position for a kid to be in and he himself had battled his way to a semi match at State, and I felt terrible for him as he was booed so harshly. I believe he was a senior too so that is likely his last wrestling experience. If he truly does have a serious injury, should he not be cheered for returning the next night to give it a go in the last match of his high school career?

I can understand all sides but wrestling is a family. Let's support these kids. Just because Shore was expected to win doesn't make it right for him to get away with a slam like that and have the wrestling community crush his opponents' heart.
I don't know what "calls" you have seen with "much less" UR than that resulting in a DQ.......But I'd like to know when, who and most importantly...when a clear favorite to win a match gets DQ'ed on this type of call ( subjective) and returns to wrestle that tournament? I can only think of a few....and they did NOT return to wrestle. Obviously it's legitimate to question the call and the coach allowing the wrestler to take the default win then return to compete. I think a few of the clique here are getting caught up in "blaming the kid". I did say he did a "LEFLOP" But put the rest/most on the coach. My coaches high school and college would have laughed at the prospect of reaching the finals that way. I'm not trying to change anyones mind here, many agree with what I've said ...and a few of course start the name calling lol. I know this much ref's are never going to criticize other refs ...so save all that. I have seen several times ref's blew a call and acted like they're god, bias? maybe certainly possible, meanwhile creating a moment a kid never forgets. The call was "bad" I'm done now :)
 
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Mr. Red

Member
Wow, I truly hope that these aren't adults on this forum acting this way. Blame the ref, blame the rule book, blame society, blame whoever you want, but to come down hard on a kid is a different type of immaturity. I have no ties to any of the programs or kids involved and was embarrassed last night that "fans" would boo a high school kid. Time for a big dose of class and maturity for this generation of people.
 
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rr23724

Well-known member
It was a slam and sure did look to me that the wrestler was in a lot of pain. I have seen slam or unnecessary roughness calls on much less than that.

Now to come back and wrestle after taking the win off the slam is questionable. Someone said why not give it a try? Well then why not finish that match? We don't need this sport turning into basketball or soccer with kids taking dives. You don't see it often in this sport send I'm proud of that.

On the flip side of the coin, we should ease up on the kid who got slammed. We don't know who's decision it was to stop. It's a tough position for a kid to be in and he himself had battled his way to a semi match at State, and I felt terrible for him as he was booed so harshly. I believe he was a senior too so that is likely his last wrestling experience. If he truly does have a serious injury, should he not be cheered for returning the next night to give it a go in the last match of his high school career?

I can understand all sides but wrestling is a family. Let's support these kids. Just because Shore was expected to win doesn't make it right for him to get away with a slam like that and have the wrestling community crush his opponents' heart.
He only gets 2 minutes to recover in the match he got slammed in. He had 24 hours to recover for the finals.
 

Lichtenberg

Member
It was an out of control mat return that was a slam. You are in the extreme minority here. But you know that so you are calling people names.
No. I’m calling a spade a spade. It was a legit mat return. Anyone who argues otherwise is stupid. This is a diagnosis.
 

eyes r burning

Well-known member
I
I’ll let you know when you’re opinion matters to me lol You arent ?. Since im well connected in all aspects in this sport and know those highly respected close to me in the sport… would NOT default in that type of BS call snd situation, then return to competition? Lol. I know who the B& tch is ?
I know who you are. You're not as well liked and respected as you think. Facts.
 

LucMurphy134

Well-known member
Slam / No slam aside. What happened to him after the finals match. He looked wobbly on his feet. Was he knocked out? Scary!
 

Old142

Active member
I

I know who you are. You're not as well liked and respected as you think. Facts.
Those I care about, respect is mutual. And the list is far longer than your short list. As far as being "liked" ..same criteria. So you're the type that tells junior it's ok stay down...you'll win ..then lets him compete. A real class act lol
 

Wrestlinglife

Active member
I don't know what "calls" you have seen with "much less" UR than that resulting in a DQ.......But I'd like to know when, who and most importantly...when a clear favorite to win a match gets DQ'ed on this type of call ( subjective) and returns to wrestle that tournament? I can only think of a few....and they did NOT return to wrestle. Obviously it's legitimate to question the call and the coach allowing the wrestler to take the default win then return to compete. I think a few of the clique here are getting caught up in "blaming the kid". I did say he did a "LEFLOP" But put the rest/most on the coach. My coaches high school and college would have laughed at the prospect of reaching the finals that way. I'm not trying to change anyones mind here, many agree with what I've said ...and a few of course start the name calling lol. I know this much ref's are never going to criticize other refs ...so save all that. I have seen several times ref's blew a call and acted like they're god, bias? maybe certainly possible, meanwhile creating a moment a kid never forgets. The call was "bad" I'm done now :)
Shore lifted him up, angled the kids upper body toward the ground, left his own feet, and clearly slammed the kid to the mat with force, making sure to drive his own shoulder and weight into him as well.

I don't blame anyone for wrestling physical, it's fine with me. However you do run an obvious risk with this type of move and the ref made the right call.

After that I guess anyone can have an opinion on whether or not the kid should wrestle, default, or continue the following night. I don't know that any of us are capable of knowing exactly what that kid was feeling.
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
I already said my peace, but I will mention that anyone whose argument includes the phrase "how can a kid who is surely going to win be called..." should be ignored. Clear bias based on who the wrestler is and who it impacted. The last name is well known, so many people are fans (rightfully so) of him and his family, so of course the call is wrong.

If this happened in a dual meet with two unranked kids, 99.9% of people would say that was a slam. But because its a big a name on a big stage, it shouldn't be called.

I encounter the same thing in baseball where I officiate college, including D2 and a smattering of D1. I had a call in top of 9th of a 2-1 game that took the tying run off the board, runner from 1st took out 2nd baseman, called illegal slide (so runner and batter are out, runner who scored returns to 3rd). Coach literally asked me "how can you make that call in the 9th inning?" Umm, because the rules mandate that I do. That is all an official *should* care about. By rule, its a slam. If you are a fan of Mr. Shore, I understand being upset and am not intending to just point blank say you are wrong. I know I have had blinders on at some of my son's baseball games when I am there as a parent instead of umpire...it happens.

But it was a slam by rule
 

Wrestlinglife

Active member
So if Shore slams this kid to the mat and the kid feels pressured into finishing hurt, loses and then loses his other matches to finish 6th because he's wrestling injured, is that fair?

Anyone ever think the kid decided to suck it up and wrestle hurt in the finals because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity that he has been dreaming of his entire life? Also I think it's right by Hermes to give him his championship match if the kid thinks he can give it a go. The easy thing to do would've been to default the match and save the embarrassment and boos.
 

Lichtenberg

Member
So if Shore slams this kid to the mat and the kid feels pressured into finishing hurt, loses and then loses his other matches to finish 6th because he's wrestling injured, is that fair?

Anyone ever think the kid decided to suck it up and wrestle hurt in the finals because it's a once in a lifetime opportunity that he has been dreaming of his entire life? Also I think it's right by Hermes to give him his championship match if the kid thinks he can give it a go. The easy thing to do would've been to default the match and save the embarrassment and boos.
The kid was embarrassed in the finals. It was a bad call on a solid, routine mat return. It was . This is why we’re debating it.
 

Old142

Active member
Shore lifted him up, angled the kids upper body toward the ground, left his own feet, and clearly slammed the kid to the mat with force, making sure to drive his own shoulder and weight into him as well.

I don't blame anyone for wrestling physical, it's fine with me. However you do run an obvious risk with this type of move and the ref made the right call.

After that I guess anyone can have an opinion on whether or not the kid should wrestle, default, or continue the following night. I don't know that any of us are capable of knowing exactly what that kid was feeling.
You better watch the video again, Shore' weight is NOT on top at all when they land, he covered him with the side of his chest which is quite normal. Yes some "force" will happen on a mat return, and it's not unusual or illegal to "leave your own feet" . I have no dog in the fight, you might.
 
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