Why do you like/ dislike the NBA?

14Red

Well-known member
The NBA has kind of turned into a all in/ all out for fans. Why is that? Basketball continues to be one of the major sports in the country, in fact, you could say it's second behind the NFL.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Absolutely.
When people want to tout it is the most popular sport in the world it is because of a few reasons:
1. $$. All you need is a ball. Nothing else.
2. Any kid on any talent level can participate and have a little fun.

Watched many a niece hit the soccer fields over the years as kids. They go out, run around, and every once in awhile if the ball gets close they kick it and once that happens they enjoy themselves as they feel some sort of accomplishment and with 22 kids playing at any one given time in a game (and you can even do more) they all feel like a part of the game.

Other sports............you see much more failure with an error, striking out, missing shots, traveling, etc.

A kid with the lack of athletic ability like an Omar can go out and play soccer game and feel like they did something and enjoy it.
I was decent at Baseball. I would never have been good enough to play at Elder, but I played AABC. My Uncle coached at UC for a few yrs, so I got more advanced coaching/training than a lot of kids at the time (this was pre specialization). I also played Football, but I sucked bc I was too small. However, I still showed up to practices to be a tackling dummy.

All that said, I HATE soccer with a passion. I respect the conditioning & coordination it takes to play, but the entire culture around soccer in the US is rotten. It’s a soft sport in this country. Imagine if Punters who flop anytime they get touched was a large part of Football, bc flopping is a huge part of soccer.
 

oxat622

Well-known member
I find it funny all the people who say the NBA is street ball now. I mean sure, if you haven't watched a game since 2004 (when NBA Finals teams might not combine for 175 points in a game), I could see that point, but that's not the case now. Scoring is way up, assists have slowly trended up, too. I credit the Suns with Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion for getting the game trending in a different direction, then later the Spurs, and then the Warriors' lineup of death for coming close to perfecting what basketball can be. Sure, there are still iso sets, but the level of skill most of today's players have is insane. Seven foot Kevin Durant absolutely cooking Giannis one on one last night was immensely entertaining. If in that moment, that's a high percentage shot, I'll take it. The Rockets with James Harden was street ball, and I had no interest in watching them, but they were an exception as of late, not a norm.

I do prefer watching college basketball over the NBA, mostly for reasons other than gameplay. I rarely tune into the NBA during the regular season, but the playoffs are appointment television and have been for about the last decade.
 

Crusaders

Moderator
More offense =/= a better product. Offense is only up because the players now dictate the terms of the league and the refs are just there to call hard fouls and signal possession.

The fact you don't bother with the regular season while holding the position that the game today is "close to perfecting what basketball can be" is hilariously lacking in self-awareness. It's part of the fad of crapping on the past to sound intelligent - it's not. Watching a well-played game end 87-85 is and always has been more entertaining on a night-to-night basis than a 115-105 scoring snoozefest. Scoring is only interesting if it's hard-faught.

The game today is glorified street ball. It's one guy doing most of the work. It's 3 or 4 steps without dribbling. Poor tactics. Lacking in fundamentals. Flopping. Celebritizing. Opponents hugging after the game. It's more circus than sport.
 
Last edited:

oxat622

Well-known member
The fact you don't bother with the regular season while holding the position that the game today is "close to perfecting what basketball can be" is hilariously lacking in self-awareness. It's part of the fad of crapping on the past to sound intelligent - it's not. Watching a well-played game end 87-85 is and always has been more entertaining on a night-to-night basis than a 115-105 scoring snoozefest. Scoring is only interesting if it's hard-faught.
I only have so much bandwidth to consume basketball during the season, so when I do, I usually opt for college ball. And it's for the reasons that the NBA can't control. I like rivalries, student sections, upsets, rankings, 350+ teams, unique arenas, etc.

I'm on board with more offense does not necessarily equal better product. If every game turned into the All-Star game, I'd hate it. But I don't see that it is. Tightening hand check foul calls combined with teams realizing that more possessions, more shot attempts, three point shooting are statistically beneficial, and from my vantage point, the overall skill level has risen to take advantage of that realization.

I get the officiating part. I'm a high school official myself and get frustrated watching. Flopping, yeah, no one likes it, but it really isn't that prevalent. Lacking tactics and fundamentals? Nah, don't see that at all.
 

Omar

Well-known member
If you say so.
... Elder have a 6 ft min to attend football games? Why don't ya ever address why ya are not allowed to attend....
I’m not exactly proud of it, but I have never not owned it. I’m fully aware, I deserve to get s**t for this forever. It was embarrassing behavior by an adult.

However, I never threatened anyone or got violent. I said things I shouldn’t have said at a louder volume than you should in a public setting. Anyway, I don’t like talking about it bc why would anyone like to constantly talk about their low point? There’s not much more I can say that hasn’t already been said. I apologized immediately to the Admin after the occurrence and have kept my distance. I’ve also worked hard to calm my behavior on the Elder forum. I still care and have opinions that differ from the majority, but I’m less of an a hole in how I express those opinions.
 
Last edited:

14Red

Well-known member
After reading many of the posts on here...and thank you for posting your thoughts...I'll throw in my thoughts...

-I like NBA basketball, I like all basketball. Each has their unique plusses and minuses. The high school game is still pretty pure, still played inside out in a lot of places and successfully. Even the college game is played inside out still. One of the major knocks of the NBA is the streetball aspect and that's simply a coaching or control issue. I've seen alot of high school teams who are awful and one of the main reasons is kids roles are not defined. If you have a kid who shoots 25% from the field and he's taking alot of shots, that's on the the coach, not the kid. You look at the better high school teams and i'd guess 3 players take about 80% of the teams field goal attempts. Sports is no a democracy. The best players need to have control of the game. The NBA is no different. Now the NBA has a 24 second shot clock, and THAT dictates that your best player keep the ball in his hands so they have the ball at the end of the shot clock.

-style of play, contact. The NBA made a decision years ago that they don't want fouls and free throws to become a big part of the game. And that's the foundation on what I feel is alot of the problems we see today. The traveling, the extra step, carrying the ball has all been allowed to happen because those in charge felt that they can overlook those things in order to keep the game pace moving along. Conversely, they don't want to call every ticky tack foul so they let alot of it go. Well, that becomes a big advantage to a guy like LeBron, who plays a very physical form of basketball. LeBron would have struggled in the 80's as his game of just bulldozing to the basket would had been over, players would take 3-4 charges a game.

- Player movement. This is something that's evolved over time, much of it doing with salary caps and the salary structure. There was a time when the star player was expected to stay on their original team and the team build around them. That's drastically changed now. Being the face of a franchise was important. Now it's more about moving to other places to try to gather more resources to win a championship. When LeBron James left Cleveland for the first time, it was really the first time a player of his stature left a team to join forces with others. When he came back to Cleveland, Kyrie Irving was already there. So LeBron has never won a title - the old fashioned way and that really dealt a blow to the overall popularity of the league, no matter who you root for.

-The NBA culture today is bad. It's kind of always been a players league. And it's definitely all a players league today. The players dictate who coaches, how they coach and basically do whatever they want. This again is bad for the look of the league. Sports fans like their teams to be organized, play for the good of the team, the city. These players leave towns year after year. Many veteran NBA players have played on 4-5 franchises, there's nothing built up. Fans like loyalty. Fans are loyal by nature and they constantly see the players on their sports teams throw it up in their faces, meanwhile making generational wealth. The whole social injustice movement the last few years has been the final straw for alot of long time basketball fans.

-that said, I'm a sports fan and I'll continue to follow. I'm able to separate the outside noise from the on court product.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Well given the large increase in young LGBTQ people, I guess it’s no surprise that soccer’s popularity increased.
I've played soccer and enjoy it, I can't stand to watch the sport. IMO, I'd do two things to increase soccer's popularity.
A. Widen the goal. I think if soccer had more scores of 12-10 and 10-8, people would enjoy it much more.
B. Get rid of the stinking off sides call. In a sport so defensive oriented, why have a rule that prohibits offense and space?
 

14Red

Well-known member
The NBA and ESPN killed basketball for people of a certain generation when they were so quick to find new stars after all of the talent from the 80's and mid 90's began to go away that they stuck all of their stock into guys like Allen Iverson.

Iverson was an incredible athlete and ESPN would always show all of his one-on-one amazing plays but they would never show the 65% of the shots he missed or his 6 turnovers. Iverson led the league in scoring one year while shooting .398 from the field. Kids started to play like this. Four guys stand around and watch one guy "do his thing." Jordan spent most of his career around .500 from the field. Even when he avg. 30+ points. And since the game is centered around the 3 point shot and dunks that is all we get anymore.

Things lost on today's game.

Give and go.
Pick and roll.
Someone who was solid from the elbow.
The unblockable bank shot from guys like Tim Duncan.
Team over "getting yours."
Team defense.
I'm a big Sixers fan and you are 100% correct. Iverson was a great talent and he was put on display by ESPN and the networks, partly because of how he played, but also how he looked. The cornrows and tats. There are very few NBA players today who aren't covered in tats. Now you can say it's the players being themselves, but also remember that corporate America, who largely supports these pro leagues and buy tickets to games has to have a say. Remember when David Stern, former NBA commish really came down on the players with the dress code and how they looked. Iverson balked at it and Stearn really kind of backed off after awhile. Stern knew the thuggish look wasn't longstanding for NBA fans.
The world today is highlights and snippits. It's not games, it's not putting up solid numbers over a time. You'll see highlights from a game and ESPN will promote a player over the team. They'll show one play from a game, not a key point in a game.
Now I will disagree, the over all talent level in the NBA is miles ahead of what it was in generations of the past. It's just not as attractive of game to watch.
 

irish_buffalo

Well-known member
About 20 years ago a young me and some friends would run the local YMCA pick-up scene. One day walked in theses roughly 35-45 year olds who wore those old generic knee braces and had too much weight around the mid section. They even rubbed Icy Hot on their backs and knees before playing. They looked like Billy Hoyle warming up. They proceeded to kick our arse. The old PG had every trick in the book. Little head-bobs, he knew how to lean into you for leverage and use it against you, and he had this bunny-hop tear drop shot that was unblockable. Their "shooter" shot what was one of the ugliest shots I've ever seen. It looked like a knuckle ball and he shot it (very quickly) from about his waist. The problem was it damn near always went in. He did not learn his shot from some camp, he learned from playing against bigger kids when he was younger and it worked. You only get a shot like that from playing the game all the time. Their post man (6'6" 250 and built like absolute $chit) had a turn around Tim Duncan bank shot that you could not block and it almost always went in. They picked and rolled. They would give and go. They knocked down shots from the elbow (ask a kid today where the elbow is.). I found out after the fact they all played some college (and some pro) ball from back in the 70's but they were very legit and well rounded basketball players who did not give two F's how they looked but played the game extremely well. They did every little thing right.

I think Jordan is the best of all time but kids and young players started to really try to emulate him to a fault (Kobe). Then with guys like Iverson and the rise of AAU which is glorified open-gym all of that stuff I described above was lost. This is why roughly 15 years ago the European teams started kicking our butts in international play. They played a great game of team basketball and we had a bunch of uber talented yet selfish guys who only knew how to play one on one type ball.

The league today as you stated is very talented but it is an awful product. Unsure how you change that?
 

cjb56

Well-known member
About 20 years ago a young me and some friends would run the local YMCA pick-up scene. One day walked in theses roughly 35-45 year olds who wore those old generic knee braces and had too much weight around the mid section. They even rubbed Icy Hot on their backs and knees before playing. They looked like Billy Hoyle warming up. They proceeded to kick our arse. The old PG had every trick in the book. Little head-bobs, he knew how to lean into you for leverage and use it against you, and he had this bunny-hop tear drop shot that was unblockable. Their "shooter" shot what was one of the ugliest shots I've ever seen. It looked like a knuckle ball and he shot it (very quickly) from about his waist. The problem was it damn near always went in. He did not learn his shot from some camp, he learned from playing against bigger kids when he was younger and it worked. You only get a shot like that from playing the game all the time. Their post man (6'6" 250 and built like absolute $chit) had a turn around Tim Duncan bank shot that you could not block and it almost always went in. They picked and rolled. They would give and go. They knocked down shots from the elbow (ask a kid today where the elbow is.). I found out after the fact they all played some college (and some pro) ball from back in the 70's but they were very legit and well rounded basketball players who did not give two F's how they looked but played the game extremely well. They did every little thing right.

I think Jordan is the best of all time but kids and young players started to really try to emulate him to a fault (Kobe). Then with guys like Iverson and the rise of AAU which is glorified open-gym all of that stuff I described above was lost. This is why roughly 15 years ago the European teams started kicking our butts in international play. They played a great game of team basketball and we had a bunch of uber talented yet selfish guys who only knew how to play one on one type ball.

The league today as you stated is very talented but it is an awful product. Unsure how you change that?
Maybe start by actually enforcing the rules of the game, like traveling? How could guys like West, Maravich, Dr J, Elgin Baylor, etc., be so creative, yet couldn’t palm the ball, carry, take a few extra steps, etc.? It was a free flowing game way back in the day and pretty much continued to be until the era of the Bad Boy Pistons, the Pat Riley Knicks and others (even the Mike Fratello Cavs) made it a half court slugfest. We’ve come out of that era and scoring is up, which makes it fun…but a lot is just sloppy AAU.

The other issue is player development. The NBA of the Jordan era was so good, primarily because even the biggest stars had done three and even four years of college ball, where they really do practice and work on fundamentals. That’s all lacking now in the American model, but the Euro model clearly develops player skills. Whatever they are doing in Europe is clearly a better training environment than the AAU system in the USA.
 

14Red

Well-known member
About 20 years ago a young me and some friends would run the local YMCA pick-up scene. One day walked in theses roughly 35-45 year olds who wore those old generic knee braces and had too much weight around the mid section. They even rubbed Icy Hot on their backs and knees before playing. They looked like Billy Hoyle warming up. They proceeded to kick our arse. The old PG had every trick in the book. Little head-bobs, he knew how to lean into you for leverage and use it against you, and he had this bunny-hop tear drop shot that was unblockable. Their "shooter" shot what was one of the ugliest shots I've ever seen. It looked like a knuckle ball and he shot it (very quickly) from about his waist. The problem was it damn near always went in. He did not learn his shot from some camp, he learned from playing against bigger kids when he was younger and it worked. You only get a shot like that from playing the game all the time. Their post man (6'6" 250 and built like absolute $chit) had a turn around Tim Duncan bank shot that you could not block and it almost always went in. They picked and rolled. They would give and go. They knocked down shots from the elbow (ask a kid today where the elbow is.). I found out after the fact they all played some college (and some pro) ball from back in the 70's but they were very legit and well rounded basketball players who did not give two F's how they looked but played the game extremely well. They did every little thing right.

I think Jordan is the best of all time but kids and young players started to really try to emulate him to a fault (Kobe). Then with guys like Iverson and the rise of AAU which is glorified open-gym all of that stuff I described above was lost. This is why roughly 15 years ago the European teams started kicking our butts in international play. They played a great game of team basketball and we had a bunch of uber talented yet selfish guys who only knew how to play one on one type ball.

The league today as you stated is very talented but it is an awful product. Unsure how you change that?
That is hilarious, and it's 100% true. I'm in my mid 50's and I still run with the young guys and they are amazed I can get shots off. I can't run and jump anywhere near how I used to, but when you get older, experience is the key. The game slows down in your mind so much. I can watch a kid play a few times, pick up his favorite moves and do a decent job defending them. Now if it's in the open court they can just blow by me now problem, but if you position correctly, you can guard just about anyone. Offensively, scoop shots, tear drops are huge and the head fake gets kids every time. If you can teach a kid to not try to block shots, you've done something. The blocked shot is one of the most overrated statistics in basketball. Most of the time the blocked shot goes out of bounds and the offensive team retains possession. Other times if you get a guy to change his shot, you're out of position for the rebound anyway and they get the put back.

As for how to change it? Believe it or not, if the NBA went to a 30-35-40 second shot clock, the game would change. The reason the NBA has become so much iso is that with the 24 second shot clock, teams don't want their best player to give up the ball because they may not get it back. With a longer shot clock, you would introduce more motion offenses and the ball could move more. Now you'd still have the up and down, fast paced game, but I think you could see teams introduce more of a motion style. Let's face it the only reason for the shot clock is to keep teams from holding the ball. Most of the time the shot clock is not needed.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
I don't like the way the game is officiated nor do I like the way many players act and behave during games. The officiating sucks and a lot of players, especially many of the stars, are as bad as star soccer players when it comes to reacting to calls and flopping. The regular season is also too long and needs to be shortened by 15-20 games.

There are many instances of overly individualistic play, but that's far from an accurate representation of the whole. Many of the better teams that are still in the playoffs (Suns, Jazz, Nuggets, Bucks, etc.) play very team-oriented basketball on both ends of the floor. Offense is much different than 20-30 years ago with the analytic emphasis on the three point shot, but it is still structured with the primary emphasis being on floor spacing. The teams listed above typically make their hay on the secondary break whether it's drag screens (Suns with Chris Paul) or reversing the ball to a skilled bigger player that's trailing the break (Bucks) getting into a simple 5 out action that has several options.
 
Last edited:

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
I prefer college to the NBA and don't watch a whole lot besides the playoffs and the occasional Cavs game, but it's important to remember that the present pro game has been shaped dramatically by the early 2000s as the stars of the 80s and 90s exited the league. The product was brutal to watch at times and a ton of games lacked flow, excitement or scoring.

There were numerous very low scoring playoff games in that time period, especially with teams like the Pacers and Pistons, that were pretty much blood sport in the paint defensively by what was allowable at that time and without the current emphasis on floor spacing and the three ball. In 2002 the Celtics beat the Pistons in the lowest scoring playoff game ever in a conference semifinal game by a score of 66-64. Tweaks to the rules followed by an increasing influx of star talents beginning in 2003 began to shift the game to the often more higher scoring and flowing product of today.
 

cjb56

Well-known member
I prefer college to the NBA and don't watch a whole lot besides the playoffs and the occasional Cavs game, but it's important to remember that the present pro game has been shaped dramatically by the early 2000s as the stars of the 80s and 90s exited the league. The product was brutal to watch at times and a ton of games lacked flow, excitement or scoring.

There were numerous very low scoring playoff games in that time period, especially with teams like the Pacers and Pistons, that were pretty much blood sport in the paint defensively by what was allowable at that time and without the current emphasis on floor spacing and the three ball. In 2002 the Celtics beat the Pistons in the lowest scoring playoff game ever in a conference semifinal game by a score of 66-64. Tweaks to the rules followed by an increasing influx of star talents beginning in 2003 began to shift the game to the often more higher scoring and flowing product of today.
I always call that the Kwame Brown era. I don’t know why, other than he was a high profile draft bust from that time. One of many. That era, as you pointed out, was an amalgamation of awful, brutal play, the transitioning of stars and soooooo many straight from HS drafts busts who came into the league totally underdeveloped mentally and physically. Sort of a lost era of the NBA with the Nets in the finals twice and those crappy Iverson Sixers or the Ron Artest/Antonio Davis Pacers. If it wasn’t for Shaq and Kobe leading that Lakers dynasty that era would have been a total bust. Today’s NBA, as bad as it can be at times, is better than that awful era.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
I always call that the Kwame Brown era. I don’t know why, other than he was a high profile draft bust from that time. One of many. That era, as you pointed out, was an amalgamation of awful, brutal play, the transitioning of stars and soooooo many straight from HS drafts busts who came into the league totally underdeveloped mentally and physically. Sort of a lost era of the NBA with the Nets in the finals twice and those crappy Iverson Sixers or the Ron Artest/Antonio Davis Pacers. If it wasn’t for Shaq and Kobe leading that Lakers dynasty that era would have been a total bust. Today’s NBA, as bad as it can be at times, is better than that awful era.
Many HS draft busts and underwhelming stars in that era, especially in the Eastern conference. Iverson was the most marketable player at that time after Shaq and Kobe.

That period from around 1999-2004 was by far the crappiest the NBA has been in what I'd call the modern era beginning with Magic Johnson and Larry Bird entering the league. I know many hate the way the game is played currently, but the talent level the last 5-6 years is the best it's been since the 80s/90s era ended.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
For the people who don't like how the game is officiated..... That's on the NBA, not on the officials.

The officials are calling the games exactly how the league wants them called.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Many HS draft busts and underwhelming stars in that era, especially in the Eastern conference. Iverson was the most marketable player at that time after Shaq and Kobe.

That period from around 1999-2004 was by far the crappiest the NBA has been in what I'd call the modern era beginning with Magic Johnson and Larry Bird entering the league. I know many hate the way the game is played currently, but the talent level the last 5-6 years is the best it's been since the 80s/90s era ended.
The 2002 Western Conference Finals still piss me off. I’ve never seen a team get screwed like the Kings, that was bulls***. And I didn’t give a damn about the Kings, but as a sports fan, seeing the fairness of the game just trampled on made me angry.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
The 2002 Western Conference Finals still piss me off. I’ve never seen a team get screwed like the Kings, that was bulls***. And I didn’t give a damn about the Kings, but as a sports fan, seeing the fairness of the game just trampled on made me angry.
I don't remember that series all that well, but I do remember it seemingly being implicated in the Donaghy scandal as an example of "fixing". The Kings led the series 3-2 going into game 6 in L.A., and in the 4th quarter of game 6 the Lakers out shot the Kings 27-9 from the free throw line en route to a 4 point win and extending the series to game 7.

I have little doubt that in that era David Stern and the other league executives were terrified of the thought of Shaq and Kobe getting bounced from the playoffs giving them a Sacramento/New Jersey NBA Finals starring Chris Webber and Peja Stojakovic against Jason Kidd, Kenyon Martin and Keith Van Horn.
 

cjb56

Well-known member
I don't remember that series all that well, but I do remember it seemingly being implicated in the Donaghy scandal as an example of "fixing". The Kings led the series 3-2 going into game 6 in L.A., and in the 4th quarter of game 6 the Lakers out shot the Kings 27-9 from the free throw line en route to a 4 point win and extending the series to game 7.

I have little doubt that in that era David Stern and the other league executives were terrified of the thought of Shaq and Kobe getting bounced from the playoffs giving them a Sacramento/New Jersey NBA Finals starring Chris Webber and Peja Stojakovic against Jason Kidd, Kenyon Martin and Keith Van Horn.
That was a good Kings team. I was a huge fan of Rick Adelman as a coach. His teams in Portland and Sac could ball.
 
.
Top