Why arent field events split over two days at the state meet like at Districts and Regionals

J

jnjcoach

Active member
I asked this questions a couple of years ago and people ripped me for it but i still believe it to be true. Why dont we split the high jump, long jump and shot, disc at the state meet like they do at districts and regionals? They train these kids for three weeks to concentrate on one event each day then expect them to come out in the biggest meet of their year and do it in one afternoon in probably the hottest conditions theyve experienced all year. Why does D2 only get this benefit?

Ill use the state champion in girls discus D3 as an example. She won the discus and didnt make finals in shot even though she was ranked high in the event. I know you have to go out and perform but there is little time for recovery after prelims, finals, trip to the podium then back to the venue.

The state would make more money by keeping these people in town and making them come two days instead of one. The argument about getting the individual meets done on time is bull because of they threw at the same time as the runners run then it would be not conflict at all

Just curious!
 
 
The problem for Division 3 is they are the morning meet in regards to running finals on Saturday so they pretty much have to finish up all the field on Friday afternoon.

That said I would not mind having the meets go back to a rotating schedule.
 
Given these asks:
1. Try to keep divisions from having field events and running events at the same time, and
2. Have the field events for each division completed before the finals of the 4x400.

Do you a suggestion for a better schedule?
 
lane4 said:
The problem for Division 3 is they are the morning meet in regards to running finals on Saturday so they pretty much have to finish up all the field on Friday afternoon.

That said I would not mind having the meets go back to a rotating schedule.
Click to expand...
The D2 field events are done before the D3 meet is done now
 
They want to have the D2 field events done as the D3 meet is ending and the D1 field events done before the D1 running events start so there’s no chance that athletes will have to be two places at once and that a kid doing the long jump, high jump, 200 and 4x200 will not be penalized for being a stud. All D3 field events are completed the first day (afternoon)so those kids can do their events and the meet I
 
ENA2 said:
They want to have the D2 field events done as the D3 meet is ending and the D1 field events done before the D1 running events start so there’s no chance that athletes will have to be two places at once and that a kid doing the long jump, high jump, 200 and 4x200 will not be penalized for being a stud. All D3 field events are completed the first day (afternoon)so those kids can do their events and the meet I
Click to expand...
I don't understand your argument for the "stud", he had to do it at districts, regionals, and prelims at state on Friday. If that stud is in d2 then he's already got the advantage, give the advantage to everyone is all I'm saying.
 
First, it's not my argument, I was just trying to answer the question on the first post. Personally, I would not mind if the last event at a meet is not the 4 x 400 as that has happened at a District before, but the powers that be, I would think, would want to announce the team results at the conclusion of the 4 x 400 as they currently do at the State Meet. As far as kids going from field events to running events is concerned, at the District and Regional meet there is a lot more wiggle room as only one meet is going on over a two-day period, whereas, the State Meet has a strict time schedule with 3 meets at the same facility over the two days. This is especially true for field events if kids would have "check out" for running events. for example: I have seen the high jump or pole vault last for 4 hours at a meet due to several of those kids leaving to do running events, since the bar can not go up and then back down for those who left without the proper attempts. All three divisions are scheduled so that their field events are not going on while that divisions' running events are held. Now I will argue that the use of Jesse Owens could be used differently by having 2 high jump pits going on and two long jump pits...maybe boys at one and girls at another (like they do the PV). I would guess that the organization for field events at the State Meet is one of the snags for not having 4 divisions. If anyone has a better time schedule, please present it to the OATCCC to propose to the OHSAA.
 
ENA2 said:
First, it's not my argument, I was just trying to answer the question on the first post. Personally, I would not mind if the last event at a meet is not the 4 x 400 as that has happened at a District before, but the powers that be, I would think, would want to announce the team results at the conclusion of the 4 x 400 as they currently do at the State Meet. As far as kids going from field events to running events is concerned, at the District and Regional meet there is a lot more wiggle room as only one meet is going on over a two-day period, whereas, the State Meet has a strict time schedule with 3 meets at the same facility over the two days. This is especially true for field events if kids would have "check out" for running events. for example: I have seen the high jump or pole vault last for 4 hours at a meet due to several of those kids leaving to do running events, since the bar can not go up and then back down for those who left without the proper attempts. All three divisions are scheduled so that their field events are not going on while that divisions' running events are held. Now I will argue that the use of Jesse Owens could be used differently by having 2 high jump pits going on and two long jump pits...maybe boys at one and girls at another (like they do the PV). I would guess that the organization for field events at the State Meet is one of the snags for not having 4 divisions. If anyone has a better time schedule, please present it to the OATCCC to propose to the OHSAA.
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to make this personal, that's not my purpose here. My problem is that kids are put in a bad spot by the way adults organized this. I understand what your saying, we could put all bar events on Friday so that time is not the issue on Saturday. The field events don't take as long as the whole track meet, I don't but that reasoning. D2 is done with field events on both days before d3 is done with their running events.
 
jnjcoach said:
D2 is done with field events on both days before d3 is done with their running events.
Click to expand...
And that is the goal. D3 does theirs on Friday to be done before Saturday morning's running finals. D2 goes Saturday morning to be done berfore their midday finals, and D1 does theirs midday to be done before the afternoon finals.
 
lane4 said:
And that is the goal. D3 does theirs on Friday to be done before Saturday morning's running finals. D2 goes Saturday morning to be done berfore their midday finals, and D1 does theirs midday to be done before the afternoon finals.
Click to expand...
At the athletes expense? Why? I don't buy the reason for the timeline.
 
I did not take anything personally nor am I trying to “rip” anyone. The original post asked a very good question. Several are answering that question accordingly. Please, propose a schedule that is better. As a D3 coach who have had kids in both the shot and disc I would ask them to not go to the podium until both events are final, but I would usually prefer both events on the same day as our District is like that as well as almost every meet of the season. Our Regional is on separate days with a day in between as most are.
 
I dont feel like there has been any solutions, the solution is "keep it the way it is", that is not a solution. Why cant they run the field events with the prelim/running events like they do at all other meets? With the exception of pole vault, which i dont have a solution for, it would be two field event per meet each day which should have minimal interference and should have plenty of time to complete in the allotted time.
 
jnjcoach said:
At the athletes expense? Why? I don't buy the reason for the timeline.
Click to expand...
Not buying that it's at the athletes expense. Do you ever train where you throw hard two days in a row? You are asking the kids to do something they have not done a single time all season. D2 is at a disadvantage as far as routine goes. You are asking for a solution to a non existent problem. Your example of not making finals for a girl in D3 happens in a lot of events. D3 has 4 hours between the start of the Shot and Disc. They didn't go right from one to the other. Where is the Physiological basis for you saying it's a disadvantage. Is it a fact that having an hour between events is too little. Is it a fact that it's better to have 24hours between competition? If you go back 10 years and can show for shot and disc that there is a definite difference between D2 and D1 / D3 ? Take the time to do that and then you could win me over, but I don't think there is.

There is no way anyone wants the team champions to have to wait 2 hours after the 4x400 to be final and I'm sure you don't want the Shot or Disc or any other field event to not matter and just be something to get through if it has no affect on the team outcome.

I don't think it's as big a deal as you make it out to be. It might be, but you have to show your work and go through all the results for at least 10 years. I'd say 20 even.
 
Id rather my kids have 22 hrs rest, food, recovery than 1hr. The volume isnt high its the intensity that is. Realistically you throw 15 times at the state meet but its hard to come back off that adrenaline rush. I admire those double winners in D3 and D1 because they were able to do it. Ive been in the situation where my thrower was the only double scorer that day in the shot and disc. We did everything we could to help him recover between events. He pr'd in the shot then lost 20 ft in the disc, not because of nerves but because of adrenaline.

I dont understand why you guys keep bringing up that the field events will outlast the meet. Ive coached in D2 and when we went to the podium from shot and discus it was in the middle of the D3 meet, that argument doesnt hold up.

I do agree i need to dig up some numbers to push this topic but it is real, ive seen it and coached it and its not about training or planning.
 
I'll ask again:
Given that we do not want the same division competing field and running events at the same time and we want the field events for each division to be completed before the 4x400 in that division, what is your proposed schedule change?
 
I am not going to jump into the debate about the state meet, but the original premise got me thinking. I am curious as to how many district meets break up the field events over two days? Here in the central D1, we don't do that. We have a district prelim day for running, a day for field events, and a day for field events. Then a running finals day.
 
My proposal is that first session is d3 both days, d2 is early afternoon, d1 is late afternoon, while their respective division is running the meet. Field events will be done well before the meet is done
 
mathking said:
I am not going to jump into the debate about the state meet, but the original premise got me thinking. I am curious as to how many district meets break up the field events over two days? Here in the central D1, we don't do that. We have a district prelim day for running, a day for field events, and a day for field events. Then a running finals day.
Click to expand...
My firsthand experiences have been at the D2 Salem and D3 Norwayne district meets in NEO.

D2 Salem was held on Thurs. and Sat. with half of the field events on Thurs. (running prelim day) and the other half on Sat. (running finals day). The field events would start either 60 or 90 min. before running. It is also worth mentioning that Salem does not have a PV facility, so the few schools that competed in the event would often be sent to the D1 district at Austintown to compete alongside the D1 vaulters on Wed. and Fri. Sometime after we dropped out of D2, the schools with PVers were able to get a more geographically friendly site to PV such as D1 North Canton. The only schools competing at Salem that vaulted were located in western Stark County, so it was utterly inconvenient to make those kids go to Austintown to vault.

D3 Norwayne was held on Wed. and Fri. The first 4 or 5 years we competed there, all field events were held on Wed. (running prelim day). Field events started at 2pm with running prelims starting at 4pm. Eventually, they changed to where half the field events would be contested on Wed. (still beginning at 2pm), and the other half would be held on Fri. (running finals day). On that Fri, field events would begin at 4pm with running finals starting at 6pm. From what I recall at Norwayne, the larger time drops from prelims to finals (in sprints and sprint relays) happened when all of the field events were contested on Wed.
 
Ah, so you don't care about athletes needing to check out of field events to go run a race (the reason for my first ask).

Let's just say that the number of athletes impacted by this is much, much larger than the number of athletes that have to throw or jump in back to back sessions. And I'm not even talking about the athletes that have to perform multiple events. There would be athletes doing a lot of waiting around with that schedule.

While you are researching what phsycho_dad requested, take a look at how many athletes are in a jumping event and the 4x200 and/or 4x100.
 
Mr. Slippery said:
The field events would start either 60 or 90 min. before running.
Click to expand...
A couple years ago, the Regional time schedules were adjusted to give 90 minutes between field and track start times. With the extra 30 minutes, typically the only field event still running is the pole vault and there is usually only a few remaining in that event by that point, so our chances of long delays for athletes running races is lowered quite a bit. It makes things run so much smoother when we can just run field events without a lot of interruptions.
 
Altor said:
A couple years ago, the Regional time schedules were adjusted to give 90 minutes between field and track start times. With the extra 30 minutes, typically the only field event still running is the pole vault and there is usually only a few remaining in that event by that point, so our chances of long delays for athletes running races is lowered quite a bit. It makes things run so much smoother when we can just run field events without a lot of interruptions.
Click to expand...
Alter, thanks for being a reasonable, informative voice here.
 
Altor said:
Ah, so you don't care about athletes needing to check out of field events to go run a race (the reason for my first ask).

Let's just say that the number of athletes impacted by this is much, much larger than the number of athletes that have to throw or jump in back to back sessions. And I'm not even talking about the athletes that have to perform multiple events. There would be athletes doing a lot of waiting around with that schedule.

While you are researching what phsycho_dad requested, take a look at how many athletes are in a jumping event and the 4x200 and/or 4x100.
Click to expand...
Ok that seems logical to me and I'm going to stay in my lane on this one. I'm a throwing coach and my main interest is with throwers. My jumping coach made the complaint about jumping events. Your issue would be less impactful with throwers even though D1 has to deal with it on their Sat meet
 
Kids that are talented enough to get to the state meet in multiple events have to learn how to manage multiple events physically and emotionally. For every thrower or throws coach that thinks having both shot and disc on the same day is bad, there is one that would prefer it. I can come up with reasons for each. There are many more issues with distance runners, hurdler-sprinter-jumpers, relays etc.. We all have to get kids to get over a disappointment in one event and quickly refocus on another event. We've also had to bring kids down off a high from a big performance and quickly refocus on the next event. In my opinion, the throws maybe the least stressful of any double someone has to deal with at the state meet. Easy to manage no matter what division you are in at the state meet.
 
I do think I have some insight into this. I have had athletes who jumped and ran, who were in both throwing events, and even a couple who did a throw and a relay. It can be difficult for athletes who are on the podium in one throw, and have to wait around for a while to get their podium ceremony and then rush over to get ready for the next throw. In 2014 I remember a particularly long wait, with several of the top shot putters also being on the discus podium (1-2-4-5 in the discus were 1-2-3-4 in the shot) and having to wait a long time to get their ceremony. It can be really frustrating.

But that "having to wait a long time for the podium ceremony" thing would be so much worse if there were field events and running events for the same division going on at the same time. Does being on the podium constitute a reason to wait to check back in to a field event? And how many cascading effects would you face because the field event is further delayed, so other athletes have to check out? Because you know that if a particular event has athletes waiting around a half hour for an athlete to check out, go compete, get through a medal ceremony and come back there would be a legion of people (including here on Yappi) explaining how this is because the OHSAA board members are evil money grubbers who "don't care about the kids."
 
How is the throws any different than your runners or other field events people going to the podium?

1,2,4,5 and 1,2,3,4 sort of shows that although it might be frustrating, it really didn't hurt their podium chances in the other event.

Managing the day or days is part of it. It's part of coaching to help with the management of the experience. None of it is a normal couple of days. Sometimes the kids manage it and sometimes they don't. Things they handled perfectly well for three weeks prior go into the toilet at the state meet. Other times they exceed all expectations.
 
psycho_dad said:
How is the throws any different than your runners or other field events people going to the podium?

1,2,4,5 and 1,2,3,4 sort of shows that although it might be frustrating, it really didn't hurt their podium chances in the other event.

Managing the day or days is part of it. It's part of coaching to help with the management of the experience. None of it is a normal couple of days. Sometimes the kids manage it and sometimes they don't. Things they handled perfectly well for three weeks prior go into the toilet at the state meet. Other times they exceed all expectations.
Click to expand...
I completely agree.

My point was that I understand the frustration of waiting for the podium ceremony (in this case, the waiting around wasn't a huge disadvantage, because most of the best throwers were doing both, and for what it's worth, two of those young women have thrown in the World Championships) and then having to go back to the event.

But it's not any different than the same thing happening between the 4x200 and 4x100. Either is FAR better than making a bunch of other kids in the high jump wait around a half hour for someone to check out to run the 100 hurdles then get on the podium, and then jump for a while and wait again because another kid is checking out to run the 4x100.

The current system is in place to minimize the disruptions and make things as fair as possible for everyone in terms of a level competitive playing field.
 
Quick 2023 look at only boys shot and disc.

D1 had 9 qualifiers in both. 2 were top 8 in both. 22%
(shot,disc) (1,8) (2,6) (3,10) (5,15) (8,13) (10,1) (11,2) (12,5) (14,9) Average place 7.5

D2 had 10. 2 top 8 in both. 20%
(1,1) (2,4) (3,11) (5,14) (6,12) (9,8) (10,3) (14, 13) (17,10) (18,18) Average place 8.8

D3 had 6. 3 top 8 in both. 50%
(1,4) (3,7) (5,6) (7,10) (10,8) (16,1) . Average place 6.5

Just one year. Just showing my work on how I would go about looking at it. This one year would be a case that D2 kids are at a disadvantage or at least not at an advantage by splitting days.

I would have thought D1 and D3 would have been flip flopped for number of qualifiers in both. Just my logic of more kids D1 = more competitive and less kids D3 = good ones more dominant.

I did this while doing other things, so I'm sorry if I missed something or my math is off.

My deeper dive would be to look at seed coming in vs actual place. I might do that if the trend seemed to be very skewed one way or the other.
 
Last edited:
not sure average place is a helpful metric. Comparing average place from first event to second event might be. Comparing expected place to actual place from first to second events too
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top