UMMM I dont live in Anderson so I didnt know but thanks for letting me know. I am merely saying in my opinion and you are free to dissagree I think for-profits should pay more money to use puplic parks and schools. I dont care what entity it is as I stated. I also assume you cant name other for-profits that use public parks like I mentioned before.
Warren County Soccer Academy is now Kings Hammer North
- Thread starter 5x26
- Start date
UMMM I dont live in Anderson so I didnt know but thanks for letting me know. I am merely saying in my opinion and you are free to dissagree I think for-profits should pay more money to use puplic parks and schools. I dont care what entity it is as I stated. I also assume you cant name other for-profits that use public parks like I mentioned before.
So better to have the parks empty and unused than make them affordable to anyone and evreyone? Non Profits already get a number of benefits none bigger than tax exempt. I don't see an issue with letting teams and thus kids use the parks at a reasonable rate rather than sit unused.
belied dat
Active member
Now you are limiting it to public parks instead of other non-profit entities that own property?
It also doesn't matter if you live in Anderson or not, it's public knowledge about their facility. It's not hard and no one asks any questions. Why should they? Facilities are being rented. No one is being restricted of usage because of some silly paperwork that you have an issue with.
You can go to any of these facilities and see for-profit entities using them any given week or weekend. I know of some. It's not a problem. As @Empty CUP stated, would you rather them be empty? The other alternative is a for-profit entity gobbling up land and facilities and charging even more usage for everyone involved. You'd complain about that too.
This is a non-issue. I disagree with your opinion and think you should move on.
When did I say they should be empty? I said a for-profit group should pay more. I dont care if its P&G or KH to be honest. I actually have liked KH in the past and I am sure they are great people with wonderful coaches. I just do not like a for-profit using the fields at the same expence or before a non-profit. Also when was the last time you saw a park full of soccer fields empty during the spring season or fall?
belied dat
Active member
So, you actively support discrimination. Good to know. Bye.
BASESWIMPARENT
Well-known member
Revenue is revenue and one can't price it so high or make it so inconvenient that the "for profit" or in the case of baseball the "non community recreational team" starts to look elsewhere for a facility. Money makes the world go around and some money is better than no money. I really wish government entities understood this. So many school facilities are not utilized to their potential and could be utilized to generate revenue for proper maintenance and upkeep. Some school districts/communities get it (Mason for one down here in SWO) but most do not.
vedderhead
Member
C’mon coach, enough with the phony nonprofit vs for profit argument/facade. You are the BIGGEST Cup homer on Yappi and now that KH is moving into Cup North territory (and possibly on a trajectory for the full ECNL status that Cup has yearned for and been so bitter about for a decade), you’re putting forth some BS and nonsensical argument solely intended to harm KH’s reputation/goodwill in the same way you’ve done over the years in respect of OE. Most of those WCSA parents who would NEVER entertain a move to the (alleged) recruitment rule breaking, subsidizing of the elite and imperial (in an Evil Empire kind of way) Cup are happy to take advantage of the larger scale opportunities provided through the affiliation with KH.
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Yes, when it comes to a 501c VS an LLC or Corp I sure do. I prefer to shop local I guess thats discremination also since I am not going to a big box chain store. I am sure you like everyone else discriminates in some way everyday and if you say you dont then you are lying.
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vedder- I actually support all youth soccer I just do not support a for-profit and if you want to look back when KH went for profit I did comment that I didnt think that was a good idea. Nice try to deflect my feelings about to OE's leadership but please stay focused. If you want to rehash my feelings toward their leadership either pm me or start a new thread I am more than happy to share again but I do not think EC or Roh want to go down that rabbit hole again either. LOL
Its easy to understand my view point but you dont have to agree and thats fine. I believe for-profits should not get the same access to public parks or public schools that a non-profit does. I believe they should pay more for them. All non-profits should get first rights to those places with the for-profits waiting to see what is left. I agree schools that sit empty such as Lebanon that has begged their tax payers for money is a shame but its that communities choice to allow the schools to have such a high price and so many hurdles to jump through to rent their fields. Even some schools that have grass fields at their schools will not rent those just thier stadiums but thats their choice seems silly to me to not want to use them for revnue. I merely shared how I felt about a for-profit organization using public spaces and you want to say I am KH hater- You dont know me. I do not hate or even dislike them I just have an opinion that for-profits should be treated differently when it comes to access to parks that I pay taxes towards.
Side note Lebanon has a Rec program that is non-profit at the same McClure complexe KH is already offering a Rec option for the younger kids. Why cant they leave the community program alone and not compete for it. Come on U4 really?? Talk about a money grab and not working with community partners.
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vedderhead
Member
Nice try coach. Let’s be clear for the readers — you support youth soccer SO LONG as it’s not in conflict with CUP’s best interests. I’m frankly surprised that CUP has maintained their 501(c) status despite (allegedly) failing the spirit of the law — don’t be a d-bag organization. Tell me, you really think that KH being a for profit vs CUP being a (fake) nonprofit should now give CUP priority over public parks in Warren County? How is that not form over substance (what community benefit is CUP offering that KH is not)? While KH pays taxes and CUP does not, yet both do the same thing and both charge substantially equivalent fees. I could be missing something, but I see no reason why the two Clubs should be treated differently in this regard. As to your Lebanon rec league deflection comment, doesn’t CU Lebanon also offer junior youth programs at McClure that compete with LYSA for those ages? But it’s okay, right, b/c CU, with their annual $millions in revenue each year, is a nonprofit? Gimme a break and get your head either out of the sand or out of your a_ _.
Yes lets be clear - I support youth soccer period. I also prefer 501C over a for-profit when it comes to using public parks or schools. I can care less if it helps or hurts CUP, Lakota, CWSC, FOSC, CUSA, or anyother club to be honest. I stopped caring what a club and people on her thought of my opinions years ago and I have been much happier since. I have coached in several clubs from the west side of town to the east side becasue I have been asked to I didnt go hunting them out. I dont do it for the money and I am actually no longer paid for what I do because to be honest I dont want to be. I coach because I enjoy it.
A 501c should IMHO be treated differently for many reasons but the main one to me is what their actual driving force is. A for-profits driving force is to make MONEY period. I work for a company owned by a fiancial investors that cares less about what we sell or to whom but instead wants to only see a profit. I am interested though in your remark about CUP allegedly not following the spirirt of a 501c and being fake. Please enlighten us all more and I assume you mean the samething toward other clubs also.
As for CU's JR's program it is vary different than what Kings Hammer is offering and I suggest you look it up and compare the two programs. You also may want to know that CU also offeres programs where some of our coaches work with SAY and other Rec organizations for free if they ask for it. There is no charge for that - but that what non-profits do vs a for-profit.
Lastly I notice you seem to believe you know who I am which means you have actually spent time trying to find out. I am truly flattered that you care so much. I do not care who anyone on here really is to be honest including you. I do know a few people only because in the real world we have talked and they have asked me and told me their Yappi name which many times I dont remember 5 minutes after they told me because as I said I dont care! Again I am flattered that you are taking the time to try and find out and care.
belied dat
Active member
Oh yes, the "non-profits" aren't in it for the money argument...here we go...
The distinction between a non-profit and a for-profit soccer club is artificial. To be a non-profit, the entity has to raise money and pay expenses for its mission. So, they can pay employees, but they can’t pay their donors or founders. Importantly, they don’t pay taxes on profits earned. In practice, a non-profit soccer club is run the same way as a for-profit soccer club. Both entities charge fees for the service they provide, and the services and fees are virtually identical.
The operating model is the same for both entities. They charge fees or dues. They use those fees to secure field space for practices and games, hire coaches, pay league and referee fees, membership dues in Ohio South, and assorted overhead expenses. Long-term survival for both entities favors clubs that are able to post profits at the end of the year (break-even at a minimum). The difference between the two is that a non-profit is forbidden from dispersing those profits to its donors or founders; whereas a for-profit could disperse profits to its owners.
As for the CU comparison, it is important to note that CU, a non-profit, is profitable. For its tax year ending June 2019, CU had revenue of $3.2 Million and a profit of $290,000. It’s total assets were $3.0 Million and total liabilities were $1.1 Million; with a Net Worth of $1.9 Million (since CU is non-profit, it’s tax returns are online). This is not a club that is hurting financially.
The real issue is not that there should be different field space rental rates for non-profit versus for profit clubs. Rather, it is about big club versus small clubs. CU is a financial juggernaut. It’s size gives it an economy of scale benefit that translates into an ability to generate profits year-over-year. This enables it force out the smaller clubs. So, another way to think about this is that big clubs like KH and CU should be charged more for the same space because they can afford it.
As for the comparison between CU (a non-profit) and KH (a for-profit), they are both large profitable clubs (in 2017 before KH became a for-profit club, it had revenue of $3 Million and a profit of $90,000). The difference is that CU appears to be more profitable and does not have to pay taxes. To me, it looks like CU is hiding behind it’s non-profit status.
vedderhead
Member
I think Conan’s post above is informed and on point and perhaps settles the substantive issue up for debate. But coach cup, with your last post, I have to say that you are seemingly so full of yourself! No offense intended, but I don’t care who you are and certainly would not spend a minute of my time trying to find out. I have simply followed this Yappi girls’/women’s soccer thread over the years (with a daughter playing at a relatively high club level) from the prior site to the new one, and your posts leave absolutely no doubt to any regular reader that you are a super-biased CUP homer/advocate, without the capacity to debate rationally or objectively, apologize or admit your or CUP’s deficiencies/errors along the way.
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There is my issue. Yes CU or FOSC may have "profits" but instead of paying their owners they can use that money to buy more land or rent more space which I am sure some of the large clubs are looking at doing even now. I hate seeing "owners" line their pocket in a youth sport in this manner. I think some people on this thread are KH homers and are in crisis mode a bit. While talking to friends, family, Athletic Director and some local city officials they were not aware of KH being for-profit which will change the fees they pay when they ue their space and they may not have prioriority over a non-profit. So while you dissagree with it many palces have had it on their books for a long time that even predates KH. So while you try to say I feel this way do to a bias you are wrong and this is proven that others that feel the same way that I do who run the schools and park systems. So I expect as word of this gets out fro-profits will pay a higher price. I suggest before you all jump to a conclussion you do a bit of research and you will see in many places I am right about for-profits paying more and not having priority over non-profits. I merely wanted to see what people thought about and I was niave to think that you all could do so in an adult manner without the name calling. It was a simpel question asking for your opinion.
I am not full of myself and I dont coach at CUP I have not coached CUP in years I bet its been about 10 years now. I have not head coached in almost 2 years anywhere. I have though volunteered to help rec and special needs kids with soccer. You are the one that mentioned where you thought I was a coach at not me. I do like CU I also like FOSC, CWSC, United, and others more than I do a few and if KH was doing this on the West side I would say the samething. My "full of myself" comments were sarcasim . (I guess that escaped you LOL) .So no bias but hey if thats all you got to hang your hat on great because as stated in the reply above many schools and parks already charge for-profits more.
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belied dat
Active member
Oh, here we go again...don't act like non-profits treat the business like it's completely philanthropic. Non-profit clubs operate exactly like for-profit clubs. They pay their administrators VERY well. Everyone knows this. They can end up balancing books like any for-profit entity would as well.
If you want to hold the non-profits as so high-and-mighty, then why are you mum on their astronomical fees? Why not call them out for their luxurious administrator pay? So, CUP is a non-profit, how do their fees compare to KH?
You don't have to answer any of these. I already know you'll start justifying everything to fit your own narrative.
A few points - It is true that a non-profit cannot give proceeds back to its founders or donors; however, a non-profit can pay salaries to employees that enable it to accomplish its mission. So, a non-profit soccer club could increase salaries or payout bonuses that erode all of its profits. So, a founder could also be an employee, and as such, pay him or herself from club proceeds. As long as the non-profit club is continuing to achieve its mission (offer a youth soccer experience), this would be allowed. Now, this would be bad from a business perspective, because it would prevent funds from being reinvested back in to the operation of the club.
The same thing can be said about a for-profit club. True, the owner(s) could take all of the profits out of the club. However, this would also be bad for the long-term survival of the club because funds would not be available to reinvest back into the operation of the club. So, again, operationally, there is virtually no difference between a for-profit and non-profit soccer club.
A lot of people assume that a non-profit club should have less pressure on it to post a profit; meaning it can operate at a loss. This is the wrong assumption because clubs that lose money cannot survive.
Some good points but a non-profit would show in their reporting bonuses and payouts right? So since you have looked at them has that occured at CU/CUP since you seem to like using them as an example? Have they given away all their profit as bonuses or have they expanded their offerings to help more players? What I see is an expansion of what they can offer with better coaching, nicer fields, and many other things.
Has KH had organic growth or has their growth been through acquisition? It was also stated earlier in this thread that their level of play has been dropping since switching to for-profit if that is true the future may not be good for them. Its not going to help when their fees to use public spaces increase either and if you or anyone else disagrees with that it your choice but many schools and public parks have had higher pricing on the books for many years that pre-date KH being for-profit. The future will be interesting.
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SmallTownBigDreams
Member
All gone. Warren County abandoned it's community feel to become just another big clubs silo. That is a lot of years of history gone, welcome to youth soccer in 2021. They are by no means the first, and won't be the last. It is how CU & Kings Hammer got to their size, not through organic growth.
Warren County did not abandon its community feel to become just another big club....
Over the years, Warren County lost a lot of teams. It is now a small club. As such, it's probably not generating enough revenue to cover all of the overhead associated with running a club. Add to that, most of these small non-profit clubs are run by volunteer-parent boards that run out of gas over time. It becomes more and more difficult to find volunteers that are willing to put the time in to run the club.
So, they're losing teams. They're either losing money or struggling to make a profit, and they are burning through parents that are willing to serve on the board. The pragmatic decision is to fold the club and move the teams to a bigger club, like CU or KH.
Like it or not, the big clubs have enough revenue and economies of scale to cover typical club overhead and have money left over to invest in future growth and services. As for the small club feel, almost every player will still be on their current teams and practice and train at the same place. Their uniforms are the only thing that will change. I would bet that most current parents don't know or don't care about Warren County's history.
ex_dc_atc
Moderator
There is another solid club in Warren County, the NWC Alliance.......
=>A "for profit" will use a public park for a company picnic/outing at a shelter. What is the different for using it public lands for athletics?
Braddock
Well-known member
I think it’s kinda funny that people are mad that an organization is finally being truthful about its intentions. They are all money making machines. Just because an organization says they are a 501c doesn’t mean they aren’t making money. Every organization makes money period, and a lot of it. Anybody with 8th grade math skills can figure this out.
=>What difference does coachg's bias make? Whether a DOC of CU or some slob living in mom's basement who has never touched a soccer ball, it is irrelevant as whether the points made or not made are valid. We all carry our own baggage that influences how we view the world. But that baggage does not invalid the points made. The "you're only saying that because you blah, blah, blah" does not refute someone's argument. It may explain why someone is making a particular argument or a has a particular POV, but that is irrelevant as to the merit of the argument.
Debate the issue, not person.
ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.Example: After Sally presents an eloquent and compelling case for a more equitable taxation system, Sam asks the audience whether we should believe anything from a woman who isn't married, was once arrested, and smells a bit weird.
Your logical fallacy is ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
yourlogicalfallacyis.com
genetic
You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.
This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins. It's similar to an ad hominem fallacy in that it leverages existing negative perceptions to make someone's argument look bad, without actually presenting a case for why the argument itself lacks merit.Example: Accused on the 6 o'clock news of corruption and taking bribes, the senator said that we should all be very wary of the things we hear in the media, because we all know how very unreliable the media can be.
Your logical fallacy is genetic
You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.
yourlogicalfallacyis.com
cincysports4
Well-known member
I agree to an extent. Not sure Warren County adjusted to the size of their club. Still paid some high salaries and multiple positions. Most clubs if they become smaller, they adjust, and make cuts in payroll. Simple business decisions.
ex_dc_atc
Moderator
What's the anticipation for the current WCSA teams now that they move forward as Kings Hammer North? Will many of the families still send players to tryouts, or will the be looking at other local options? I guess I'm curious how the current players/families respond to this change.
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vedderhead
Member
Dude, save your puritanical parameters of rhetoric for another site. The steady stream of club propaganda on this site requires as much. Don’t be so naive.=>What difference does coachg's bias make? Whether a DOC of CU or some slob living in mom's basement who has never touched a soccer ball, it is irrelevant as whether the points made or not made are valid. We all carry our own baggage that influences how we view the world. But that baggage does not invalid the points made. The "you're only saying that because you blah, blah, blah" does not refute someone's argument. It may explain why someone is making a particular argument or a has a particular POV, but that is irrelevant as to the merit of the argument.
Debate the issue, not person.
ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.
Example: After Sally presents an eloquent and compelling case for a more equitable taxation system, Sam asks the audience whether we should believe anything from a woman who isn't married, was once arrested, and smells a bit weird.
Your logical fallacy is ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.yourlogicalfallacyis.com
genetic
You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.
This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins. It's similar to an ad hominem fallacy in that it leverages existing negative perceptions to make someone's argument look bad, without actually presenting a case for why the argument itself lacks merit.
Example: Accused on the 6 o'clock news of corruption and taking bribes, the senator said that we should all be very wary of the things we hear in the media, because we all know how very unreliable the media can be.
Your logical fallacy is genetic
You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.yourlogicalfallacyis.com