The OHSAA should be worried

[hammer89]

It is ok to admit you are wrong. You post like you know everything and clearly you don't.

Here is the original post and it says ZERO about profit incentives (a number that can change based on total profit, i.e., tickets sold) it is all about covering travel costs.

View attachment 50890

I post like a person who was in the room when IRS people said “here’s all the stuff you’re doing that you can’t do anymore.”
That was 5+ years ago at this point, so the finer points may elude me now, but my point was to try and provide some context as to some of the changes OHSAA has made recently. Some are purely profit driven (playoff expansion) some are IRS mandated (ticket reimbursements, blank check stipends for travel). To somes point, perhaps the OHSAA could have done more to find ways around this/other ways to comply than they have. That’s fair.

 

[umpire16]

It is ok to admit you are wrong. You post like you know everything and clearly you don't.

Here is the original post and it says ZERO about profit incentives (a number that can change based on total profit, i.e., tickets sold) it is all about covering travel costs.

View attachment 50890

Sharing of profits, derived from positive revenue generation, is not permitted for any nonprofit. Doling out reimbursement for travel for an event is not the same as doling out profit. If that were the case, every time a district or state board member receives reimbursement for travel, they would be violating the law. If the OHSAA budgets for this expense to cover costs of schools traveling to the state tournament, it’s not doing anything wrong. Semantics is very important here.

 

[SpeedSafety25]

Based on this logic, Marion Local would be what division by now?

They'd be division negative 12 id thinkm

 

[CC Track Fan]

I post like a person who was in the room when IRS people said “here’s all the stuff you’re doing that you can’t do anymore.”
That was 5+ years ago at this point, so the finer points may elude me now, but my point was to try and provide some context as to some of the changes OHSAA has made recently. Some are purely profit driven (playoff expansion) some are IRS mandated (ticket reimbursements, blank check stipends for travel). To somes point, perhaps the OHSAA could have done more to find ways around this/other ways to comply than they have. That’s fair.

Once again it is ok to admit you were wrong. The entire post was about OHSAA reimbursement of travel expenses and you chimed in that the IRS doesn't allow that. Then I showed you that OSHAA actually is reimbursing for travel expenses and then you for some unknown reason brought an unrelated topic of profit incentives which had ZERO to do with the original post. Not sure how you working for OHSAA has anything to do with these posts unless you are just using it as an opportunity to brag that you worked for them.

 

[CC Track Fan]

Sharing of profits, derived from positive revenue generation, is not permitted for any nonprofit. Doling out reimbursement for travel for an event is not the same as doling out profit. If that were the case, every time a district or state board member receives reimbursement for travel, they would be violating the law. If the OHSAA budgets for this expense to cover costs of schools traveling to the state tournament, it’s not doing anything wrong. Semantics is very important here.

The posts have zero to do with sharing profits so why are you injecting an unrelated topic into the discussion? The posts were only about travel reimbursement which can be legally done but Hammer said they could not so I was correcting him.

 

[John Lee Pettimore]

Here's the solution.

If you made the final 4 you can only participate in "football activities" 3 times a week the following year.

If you made it to the championship game you can only participate in "football activities" twice a week the following year.

If you won the championship you can only participate in "football activities" once a week the following year.

Problem solved.

 

[hammer89]

Once again it is ok to admit you were wrong. The entire post was about OHSAA reimbursement of travel expenses and you chimed in that the IRS doesn't allow that. Then I showed you that OSHAA actually is reimbursing for travel expenses and then you for some unknown reason brought an unrelated topic of profit incentives which had ZERO to do with the original post. Not sure how you working for OHSAA has anything to do with these posts unless you are just using it as an opportunity to brag that you worked for them.

Certainly not bragging about that point

 

[SpeedSafety25]

Take the excess profits that OHSAA supposedly makes and double the pay of refs. This simple solution solves it all.

 

[hammer89]

Take the excess profits that OHSAA supposedly makes and double the pay of refs. This simple solution solves it all.

OHSAA doesn’t pay the refs in regular season, or set the rates for that.

 

[Olympiums]

I want so badly for my Firebirds to jump on the Anti-OHSAA bandwagon, but our AD is extremely obedient and loyal to the OHSAA. He's the first to offer to host for any event, and I believe he is a President of the board. He goes over and above for our kids though, and that's what matters most.

 

[umpire16]

The posts have zero to do with sharing profits so why are you injecting an unrelated topic into the discussion? The posts were only about travel reimbursement which can be legally done but Hammer said they could not so I was correcting him.

Maybe read a bit more and pay attention to how mess he boards work. I was bringing both ends together or did that hurt your pride and feelings?

 

[CC Track Fan]

View attachment 50894

Maybe read a bit more and pay attention to how mess he boards work. I was bringing both ends together or did that hurt your pride and feelings?

That comment about calling the IRS was sarcastic because he said it was illegal for OHSAA to give travel reimbursement which is exactly what OHSAA is currently doing. When clearly it is not.

I have no pride or feeling so can't hurt those but I can't stand "know it all's" that will not admit when they are wrong. Makes you question the accuracy of everything that he posts.

 

[hammer89]

That comment about calling the IRS was sarcastic because he said it was illegal for OHSAA to give travel reimbursement which is exactly what OHSAA is currently doing. When clearly it is not.

I have no pride or feeling so can't hurt those but I can't stand "know it all's" that will not admit when they are wrong. Makes you question the accuracy of everything that he posts.

I was wrong in going off topic and speaking too broadly regarding travel. I tried to clarify my points/reasoning in post 151.

 

[Sykotyk]

I post like a person who was in the room when IRS people said “here’s all the stuff you’re doing that you can’t do anymore.”
That was 5+ years ago at this point, so the finer points may elude me now, but my point was to try and provide some context as to some of the changes OHSAA has made recently. Some are purely profit driven (playoff expansion) some are IRS mandated (ticket reimbursements, blank check stipends for travel). To somes point, perhaps the OHSAA could have done more to find ways around this/other ways to comply than they have. That’s fair.

Is the IRS in the room with us right now?

 

[Sykotyk]

@hammer89 Glad you could at least see the humor in that.

As for whether the OHSAA can or can't reimburse travel, is probably more up to how they're doing it and not that they're doing it. Travel is an expense. If they're paying officials, venues, etc for the playoffs, covering transportation costs to get teams to the games they're putting on isn't exactly unreal. After all, don't they pay officials travel from around the state rather than just their game rates?

And my final point is just that... other states do it and haven't stopped. PA does it. Other states do it. Travel is a cost of putting on the games when the state association is collecting the bulk of the proceeds for tickets, media rights, and sponsorships. Non-profit doesn't mean they're doing things for free and have a whole host of volunteers running things. Which is a classic mistake many people make when thinking about things like non-profits and charities. Or that they have to spend for things like salaries, insurance, benefits, reimbursements, costs, advertising, legal, etc and yammer on constantly about why a non-profit is spending so much money on other things that seem outside the cost of their mission statement.

Part of the OHSAA structure might be that since they take in all revenue (now), they can't just dole it out to their members for reimbursement because it looks like a kickback to the IRS. However, if the schools ran the playoff games under the rules of the OHSAA and collected the tickets and then paid a 'rights fee' to the OHSAA per ticket, then they'd be okay. Which is mostly how other states handle it.

In PA, the districts run the playoffs and the PIAA just oversees it all until the finals. And even then, the state is paying the transportation.

Although, thinking about it just now.... Almost every school in PA contracts out their bussing, rather than having an in-house fleet of buses like you find in Ohio. So, the payment goes to the bussing company and not the school. And any overage would be paid by the school themselves for going above the allotted mileage reimbursement.

 

[hammer89]

@hammer89 Glad you could at least see the humor in that.

As for whether the OHSAA can or can't reimburse travel, is probably more up to how they're doing it and not that they're doing it. Travel is an expense. If they're paying officials, venues, etc for the playoffs, covering transportation costs to get teams to the games they're putting on isn't exactly unreal. After all, don't they pay officials travel from around the state rather than just their game rates?

And my final point is just that... other states do it and haven't stopped. PA does it. Other states do it. Travel is a cost of putting on the games when the state association is collecting the bulk of the proceeds for tickets, media rights, and sponsorships. Non-profit doesn't mean they're doing things for free and have a whole host of volunteers running things. Which is a classic mistake many people make when thinking about things like non-profits and charities. Or that they have to spend for things like salaries, insurance, benefits, reimbursements, costs, advertising, legal, etc and yammer on constantly about why a non-profit is spending so much money on other things that seem outside the cost of their mission statement.

Part of the OHSAA structure might be that since they take in all revenue (now), they can't just dole it out to their members for reimbursement because it looks like a kickback to the IRS. However, if the schools ran the playoff games under the rules of the OHSAA and collected the tickets and then paid a 'rights fee' to the OHSAA per ticket, then they'd be okay. Which is mostly how other states handle it.

In PA, the districts run the playoffs and the PIAA just oversees it all until the finals. And even then, the state is paying the transportation.

Although, thinking about it just now.... Almost every school in PA contracts out their bussing, rather than having an in-house fleet of buses like you find in Ohio. So, the payment goes to the bussing company and not the school. And any overage would be paid by the school themselves for going above the allotted mileage reimbursement.

Reading this thread definitely made me realize the OHSAA probably didn’t do much work in trying to find alternative solutions to the way they were doing things. “We do it this way, or we don’t do it because we don’t want to figure out a different way”

 

[PolarBears92]

Why would OHSAA have any responsibility for dealing with unruly fans at a (presumably) regular season game?

BTW, 3 of the D2 Final Four were publics. A public won it. Seems a strange definition of "domination".

They're right about the money. OHSAA charges too much and they keep too much.

Dunno who the local "congressman" (do ya mean state rep?) is, but vote him out.

In the last 5 years, winners of state championships in the 7 divisions:
Private Public
D I: 4 - 1
D II: 3 - 2
D III: 1 - 4
D IV: 0 - 5
D V: 0 - 5
D VI: 0 - 5
D VII: 0 - 5
Total: 8 - 27

The private schools have captured only 23% of state titles in recent years. I do not think blowing up the system is the answer, its seems to be more of an upper-division issue if anything but even then its 8-7 private schools (D1-3). Tweaks in the competitive balance formula may be valid but in general I do not see as much of an issue with the competitiveness between the private and public schools in the state tournament.

 

[Sykotyk]

In the last 5 years, winners of state championships in the 7 divisions:
Private Public
D I: 4 - 1
D II: 3 - 2
D III: 1 - 4
D IV: 0 - 5
D V: 0 - 5
D VI: 0 - 5
D VII: 0 - 5
Total: 8 - 27

The private schools have captured only 23% of state titles in recent years. I do not think blowing up the system is the answer, its seems to be more of an upper-division issue if anything but even then its 8-7 private schools (D1-3). Tweaks in the competitive balance formula may be valid but in general I do not see as much of an issue with the competitiveness between the private and public schools in the state tournament.

Privates make up 10% or less of the football playing members. So them winning twice as often is a notable statistic.

 

[umpire16]

@hammer89 Glad you could at least see the humor in that.

As for whether the OHSAA can or can't reimburse travel, is probably more up to how they're doing it and not that they're doing it. Travel is an expense. If they're paying officials, venues, etc for the playoffs, covering transportation costs to get teams to the games they're putting on isn't exactly unreal. After all, don't they pay officials travel from around the state rather than just their game rates?

And my final point is just that... other states do it and haven't stopped. PA does it. Other states do it. Travel is a cost of putting on the games when the state association is collecting the bulk of the proceeds for tickets, media rights, and sponsorships. Non-profit doesn't mean they're doing things for free and have a whole host of volunteers running things. Which is a classic mistake many people make when thinking about things like non-profits and charities. Or that they have to spend for things like salaries, insurance, benefits, reimbursements, costs, advertising, legal, etc and yammer on constantly about why a non-profit is spending so much money on other things that seem outside the cost of their mission statement.

Part of the OHSAA structure might be that since they take in all revenue (now), they can't just dole it out to their members for reimbursement because it looks like a kickback to the IRS. However, if the schools ran the playoff games under the rules of the OHSAA and collected the tickets and then paid a 'rights fee' to the OHSAA per ticket, then they'd be okay. Which is mostly how other states handle it.

In PA, the districts run the playoffs and the PIAA just oversees it all until the finals. And even then, the state is paying the transportation.

Although, thinking about it just now.... Almost every school in PA contracts out their bussing, rather than having an in-house fleet of buses like you find in Ohio. So, the payment goes to the bussing company and not the school. And any overage would be paid by the school themselves for going above the allotted mileage reimbursement.

There's alot they say no to that other states do and often they act aghast (in my experience) when presented with the often overwhelming evidence.

 

[19AL63]

Bumping up after winning would allow more D7 schools to compete for a title in the long run, and would give us, for example, a Marion Local vs Perry match up in D5 some year. I for one would have loved to see that game. If Marion would have lost, drop them back to 6 next year for example. It's a win win for all, and Marion is the last team in the state that would complain who they have to play.

How do you think that would make the schools in D7 feel as they win the championship, we are champions but we would not be if they had not moved a the school the same size as us up to 6 and possibly 5. Why don't we just forget the playoffs and give everyone a participation trophy. I do not think Marion Local is the problem. They play the game with home grown young men from the local area. They do not have feeder schools to get there star players from. They play with what the have and have great coaching to produce winners.

 

[Champ Kind]

In the last 5 years, winners of state championships in the 7 divisions:
Private Public
D I: 4 - 1
D II: 3 - 2
D III: 1 - 4
D IV: 0 - 5
D V: 0 - 5
D VI: 0 - 5
D VII: 0 - 5
Total: 8 - 27

The private schools have captured only 23% of state titles in recent years. I do not think blowing up the system is the answer, its seems to be more of an upper-division issue if anything but even then its 8-7 private schools (D1-3). Tweaks in the competitive balance formula may be valid but in general I do not see as much of an issue with the competitiveness between the private and public schools in the state tournament.

How many should they win? When will we know when competitive balance has been met? I asked the OHSAA this when they first started talking about it and got no answer. It's similar to asking a DEI manager when will they know that a company is diverse enough.

 

[invader03]

I truly believe that if you make the final four in football multiple years those teams get bumped up a division.
Akron Hoban, Massillon, Glenville, Marion Local, Kirkland, etc, should all be bumped up a division. Teams that don’t win get bumped down. It would take some major work each year by a committee to accomplish this task. Determining what teams belong where. But with time it could be worked out. Sure there’s challenges to this. With change there always is. But simply saying bump up by enrollment or private vs public is not the answer. It’s the easy answer. But not the correct answer. Appeasing the masses is all the OHSAA is concerned with. Not putting in the work to get it right. One example that really shows the OHSAA could care less is the Glenville loophole. Most boys in Glenville’s roster attend the Ginn Academy. That allows Glenville to use waters down boys enrollment numbers moving Glenville to
D-4. How is this possible. Things need to change. Loopholes need to be closed. A committee needs to be formed to make the proper adjustments to determine who plays in what division.

Take top 15$ of each division over a 4 year average and bump up and take bottom 155 and bump down. All cheaters fight it out in top divisions. not rocket science and cant lie like on enrollment number Glenville

 

[Mikefln]

How do you think that would make the schools in D7 feel as they win the championship, we are champions but we would not be if they had not moved a the school the same size as us up to 6 and possibly 5. Why don't we just forget the playoffs and give everyone a participation trophy. I do not think Marion Local is the problem. They play the game with home grown young men from the local area. They do not have feeder schools to get there star players from. They play with what the have and have great coaching to produce winners.

I agree with this with one caveat. If Marion Local or any school, WANTED to move up a division or 2, they should be allowed to. I am not saying they do, I have not spoken to anyone from there about it. But in PA there are a few teams that willingly play up a classification. There reasons for doing so vary, some do it for the challenge, some do it because it allows them to compete against their neighboring schools, etc. So I agree, do not force them up, but allow them to choose to move up.

 

[y2h]

Unruly fans can be escorted out by police at the games.

The public/private split could happen anytime, but not enough publics must want it to happen because they’ve never actually advocated for the split…just individual schools biatching when they lose to a private.

The expanded playoffs are a money grab and everyone knows it.

The lack of officials has more to do with the abuse dished out by coaches and fans than any other reason.

Yeah the unruly fans issue is a security issue not an OHSAA issue.

 

[lc5397]

In the last 5 years, winners of state championships in the 7 divisions:
Private Public
D I: 4 - 1
D II: 3 - 2
D III: 1 - 4
D IV: 0 - 5
D V: 0 - 5
D VI: 0 - 5
D VII: 0 - 5
Total: 8 - 27

The private schools have captured only 23% of state titles in recent years. I do not think blowing up the system is the answer, its seems to be more of an upper-division issue if anything but even then its 8-7 private schools (D1-3). Tweaks in the competitive balance formula may be valid but in general I do not see as much of an issue with the competitiveness between the private and public schools in the state tournament.

This is clearly a competitive balance issue. It's a travesty that nobody is looking out for the private schools in DIV-VII that aren't competing on a level playing field with those juggernaut public schools.

 

[lc5397]

Take top 15$ of each division over a 4 year average and bump up and take bottom 155 and bump down. All cheaters fight it out in top divisions. not rocket science and cant lie like on enrollment number Glenville

The bottom divisions would be truly horrible within 12, maybe 8, years. We've already established that the vast majority of schools aren't competitive in relation to a championship level. And the bottom of every division is always truly horrible. Pushing them down into the same divisions is a horrible idea. Those schools aren't "bad" because where they are playing is "unfair." They're bad because they lack the resources, culture, interest to be competitive at any level. We don't need to spend time making it more fair for schools/programs that have no interest in being competitive.

 

[chs1971]

I agree with this with one caveat. If Marion Local or any school, WANTED to move up a division or 2, they should be allowed to. I am not saying they do, I have not spoken to anyone from there about it. But in PA there are a few teams that willingly play up a classification. There reasons for doing so vary, some do it for the challenge, some do it because it allows them to compete against their neighboring schools, etc. So I agree, do not force them up, but allow them to choose to move up.

I bet the reason almost all move up is to get away from somebody.

 

[fantastic50]

Had to be old. They went from 4 to 8 when they split, and then just this year or last year went back down to 4. But the classifications never changed. It's like Texas 6A, they split after the fact into big and small tournaments in the same class.

2023 playoffs:



Thing that sucks is for only having 4 games, the NCHSAA has to split between UNC and NC State or else too many feelings get hurt. When they had 8 classes, they usually had games at Duke as well. Except years they'd play at Wake Forest as well.

In 2019, they played two games at Duke, UNC, NC State, and Wake Forest. All games on Saturday. Two sites hosted at 11am and 3pm, while the other two hosted at 3pm and 7pm. A complete clusterfudge.

The year I went, in 2018, they had this fun schedule:



I went to three of the 8. Friday at UNC, and the two earliest games at NC State. It's one of the messiest championship rounds in the country. Save for maybe Kansas, Connecticut, or Montana/New Mexico. And those last two only because highest seed hosts.

NC is going to eight classes for all sports (as compared to the prior version with 8 for football only) as of 2025-26.
https://myfox8.com/sports/football/...iation-expanding-from-4-to-8-classifications/

 

[Sykotyk]

NC is going to eight classes for all sports (as compared to the prior version with 8 for football only) as of 2025-26.
https://myfox8.com/sports/football/...iation-expanding-from-4-to-8-classifications/

They can't make up their mind. Hopefully this new setup will stay. Unlike the last attempt.

 

[commodore20]

That’s the dumbest thing ever. Why isn’t it if you don’t win a state championship you drop a division the next season so you have a better shot against lower competition.

Explain the difference in my thought vs yours??

With the caveat in mind, of course that you can't go down a division below your enrollment. Your baseline is the enrollment you are at. You can't go lower than that division.