The Next GOAT

B

bdhof

Well-known member
While some may argue that JB is not the GOAT, it was irrefutably proven by a Yappi poll a while ago. And until someone gets to 7 golds, he'll stay there. JB obviously is not the force he once was. He could hang around, bump back to 79, and harvest another medal or 2, but I doubt it. So who is best positioned to be the next GOAT b/c there's always the next GOAT?

I would have said Taylor. Altho old (33), he seemed like he was still the best version of himself...until Brooks. His biggest problem w/ Brooks is that they train together (I think). Brooks has figured him out. And Brooks is only gonna get better. DT needs 3 more golds to get in the discussion. Not gonna happen IMO.

Then there's Dake. He'd need 3 more golds as well, and another medal to tie JB. He's obviously very good, but I think the clock runs out on him as well (33 years old). And his defensive style lends itself to close matches, which sometimes go the wrong way. He's won 4 of the last 6 golds.

Cox is retired, so he's out. And he'd need 5 more golds, plus he'd have to get by Snyder.

And then there's Captain America. He's got 4 golds so he'd need 3 more. But he's got problems. He's only won 1 gold since 2017, mostly but not exclusively due to Sad RUS (lost to Sharifov AZE 2019 worlds and TAZ BAH 2023 worlds). Taz BAH tf'ed Snyder 11-0 at 2023 Worlds after pummeling Sad 9-2. There's a new guy at 97 and it isn't Sad or Snyder. Maybe he caught Sad and Snyder by surprise, but at 21 years old, I think he's the next thing at 97. BTW I think he was a RUS and went transfer portal to BAH (and a sweet NIL deal).

So the only possible one seems like Snyder, but I'm not taking that bet. And any new guys (Brooks et al) are 8-10 years away). Could be a while.
 
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bdhof said:
While some may argue that JB is not the GOAT, it was irrefutably proven by a Yappi poll a while ago. And until someone gets to 7 golds, he'll stay there. JB obviously is not the force he once was. He could hang around, bump back to 79, and harvest another medal or 2, but I doubt it. So who is best positioned to be the next GOAT b/c there's always the next GOAT?

I would have said Taylor. Altho old (33), he seemed like he was still the best version of himself...until Brooks. His biggest problem w/ Brooks is that they train together (I think). Brooks has figured him out. And Brooks is only gonna get better. DT needs 3 more golds to get in the discussion. Not gonna happen IMO.

Then there's Dake. He'd need 3 more golds as well, and another medal to tie JB. He's obviously very good, but I think the clock runs out on him as well (33 years old). And his defensive style lends itself to close matches, which sometimes go the wrong way. He's won 4 of the last 6 golds.

Cox is retired, so he's out. And he'd need 5 more golds, plus he'd have to get by Snyder.

And then there's Captain America. He's got 4 golds so he'd need 3 more. But he's got problems. He's only won 1 gold since 2017, mostly but not exclusively due to Sad RUS (lost to Sharifov AZE 2019 worlds and TAZ BAH 2023 worlds). Taz BAH tf'ed Snyder 11-0 at 2023 Worlds after pummeling Sad 9-2. There's a new guy at 97 and it isn't Sad or Snyder. Maybe he caught Sad and Snyder by surprise, but at 21 years old, I think he's the next thing at 97. BTW I think he was a RUS and went transfer portal to BAH (and a sweet NIL deal).

So the only possible one seems like Snyder, but I'm not taking that bet. And any new guys (Brooks et al) are 8-10 years away). Could be a while.
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John Smith is the GOAT . End of story ...A DNP in 2016 obviously throws out JB. I'd argue that there are several others who have beaten better to win there Golds also.
 
Insidetrip73 said:
John Smith is the GOAT . End of story ...A DNP in 2016 obviously throws out JB. I'd argue that there are several others who have beaten better to win there Golds also.
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82% of Yappi says you’re wrong but you can keep saying it if you want.
 
Dake might beat JBs record. However being 33 years old it will be hard. It's hard to say if he's slower since he didn't produce much offense over the weekend. He should make team USA for the next 3 years because it does not look like anyone is remotely close to dethroning him in the USA.

Hopefully JB retires. He is definitely slower. I'm not hating . I just don't like to see athletes staying longer than they should. Wouldn't be surprised if he gives 2024 worlds a try then calls it quits.

However if you want to speak of GOAT then there should be no debate that Helen maroulis is the GOAT. The performance she gave again was amazing. She will be in the conversation for another gold.

Snyder may have lost a step. Yesterday's match would not have been close 5 years ago.
Taylor went up against a more confident brooks. Did we witness a passing of the torch or can Taylor make the corrections?
 
I'm in the 18% as well... if broken down separately, John Smith is the Men's Goat IMO. I'm also on the Elor will be the GOAT train. 8 world level golds, 2 in Senior level, and just turned 20. When is the last time she lost? Had to be when she was on the young side of cadet 🤷‍♂️?
 
Insidetrip73 said:
John Smith is the GOAT . End of story ...A DNP in 2016 obviously throws out JB. I'd argue that there are several others who have beaten better to win there Golds also.
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If JB didn’t have the same amount of Golds, I’d agree with you but. JBs longevity Trumps John smith. Jb Has accomplished a lot more in his career. John smith 2nd though.
 
People forget John Smith did lose a match at the '92 Olympics. It was the old Pool style brackets then and he still won the pool even though he lost his last match in the pool.
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From Yankee a few years ago when I did the poll:

I think Burroughs has two things working in his favor:

1. His record against Dake and Taylor in their prime. Both were all-time great NCAA wrestlers and were unable to beat Burroughs in a series until Dake did so in 2021. JB caused both to change weights simply because they could not beat him, at which point they both won world titles.

2. The fall of the Soviet Union and the rise in Russian transfers. There are many good wrestlers in the 1980s and 1990s that were not competing because they had to spot on the team. Now, they either compete for former Soviet countries or compete for another country, neither of which were a possibility for opponents of Smith and Baumgartner.
 
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bdhof said:
From Yankee a few years ago when I did the poll:

I think Burroughs has two things working in his favor:

1. His record against Dake and Taylor in their prime. Both were all-time great NCAA wrestlers and were unable to beat Burroughs in a series until Dake did so in 2021. JB caused both to change weights simply because they could not beat him, at which point they both won world titles.

2. The fall of the Soviet Union and the rise in Russian transfers. There are many good wrestlers in the 1980s and 1990s that were not competing because they had to spot on the team. Now, they either compete for former Soviet countries or compete for another country, neither of which were a possibility for opponents of Smith and Baumgartner.
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Both of those are spot on. Burroughs record against "the best" in their prime is unequaled.
As an old guy, one of the turn-offs for me in the evolution of the sport is that the last 20 years of wrestling development, strategy and execution has seen a decline in innovation of risk and technique, from the days of the Smith's, Satiev's, Belaglazovs' Fadzaev's, Schultz' & Baumgartners'.
At the top level, everybody just uses the same 'ol stuff that works, which I get, but at the expense of more exciting wrestling...which most of the time means, do nothing, take no chances & "counter-wrestle" til the cows come home. I get it. But the price paid is its not much fun to watch.
Burroughs utilized a "limited" arsenal, but it was all his. And he was an initiator, rather than a do-nothinger...I mean counter-wrestler.
Wrestling was even more fun back in the days when people used to "pin" people. Now its boxing without the knockouts...
 
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nooks said:
Both of those are spot on. Burroughs record against "the best" in their prime is unequaled.
As an old guy, one of the turn-offs for me in the evolution of the sport is that the last 20 years of wrestling development, strategy and execution has seen a decline in innovation in risk and technique, from the days of the Smith's, Satiev's, Belaglazovs' Fadzaev's, Schultz' & Baumgartners'.
At the top level, everybody just uses the same 'ol stuff that works, which I get, but at the expense of more exciting wrestling...which most of the time means, do nothing, take no chances & "counter-wrestle" til the cows come home. I get it. But the price paid is its not much fun to watch.
Burroughs utilized a "limited" arsenal, but it was all his. And he was an initiator, rather than a do-nothinger...I mean counter-wrestler.
Wrestling was even more fun back in the days when people used to "pin" people. Now its boxing without the knockouts...
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"Back in my day"!! LOL
While I don't disagree with much of what you say, the object is to win a match. It has never been to "entertain" the fans. That is very secondary.

BTW, why did you make everyone's name plural? There was only one Smith, one Baumgartner, one Belaglazov, etc.
 
BTW, why did you make everyone's name plural? There was only one Smith, one Baumgartner, one Belaglazov, etc.

Because "those guys" were so entertaining I just assumed there was more than one of them. :)
And the heck with just winning the match...If Cassius Clay, Maximus Aurelius, Pete Maravich, Andre Agassi, Oscar Wood, Johnny McGee and Randy Lewis taught us anything, its that "style" is everything! Are you not entertained?
Besides, wasn't it Coach Wayne Baughman who once said, "the guy who wins the fight, wins the match and the hel with the score...!"
 
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Cramer said:
People forget John Smith did lose a match at the '92 Olympics. It was the old Pool style brackets then and he still won the pool even though he lost his last match in the pool.
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Makes no difference. He went into that match knowing all I have to do is not get pinned and I'm in the Gold Medal match. Smiliar to a 100 meter dash semis -- all you have to do is make top 2 to auto qualify for finals. No need to exert any more effort than necessary.

John Smith beat the defending Olympic Champ Randy Lewis to make team in '88 and beat a VERY underrated John Fisher and some dude named Tom Brandsi in '92 to make the team. He didn't have some cake walk to make the team.

#recencybias
 
Rasslerzhs said:
If JB didn’t have the same amount of Golds, I’d agree with you but. JBs longevity Trumps John smith. Jb Has accomplished a lot more in his career. John smith 2nd though.
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JB's longevity - and this is coming from a JB fan - is largely due to the fact that he's been able to make a very decent living continuing to wrestle. Had that been the case in the early 90's it's entirely possible Smith would've competed longer.
 
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