Separating public and private schools.

tom 48 said:
Of course you see Massillon and immediately rush to the defensive, even though the intent has nothing to do with your school. Triggered? How many times do we have to see " Will Massillon ever win a state championship?" It's interminable ; so why must it, like the public vs private or "why Canton" questions be asked every single year with the same posters offering the same " arguments" ( "How about Crew?"). Isn't there anything new, or do the same people have nothing to do with their lives that the same questions have to be brought up constantly just for something to do? When has there ever been a new argument? You might say I was triggered. Well, if I am, it's because it's the same old you know what every year. Of course, it's my fault for actually reading them; I should just ignore those posts.
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Yet, you brought Massillon into the discussion.??‍♂️Maybe if you had said “playoff” title, I wouldn’t have responded?
 
pup pounder said:
Ha, Massillon could have had 6 or more with semi's. Even Massilln Perry should have 2, not to mention their wrestling program. I'm sure this topic will get trashed again by all the people that benefit from this disparity.
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Definitely not 2! 2015 was not so good! 2016 yes they could of had a shot!
 
That's why I like schools like Norwalk. Punked St V in their backyard in 74, and punked Watterson in their backyard in 2014. If you want championship aspirations, do what you can to achieve. Of course, cough, within the boundaries
 
The Dock said:
Separation just results in elimination of the guardrails (written and practical) on private schools’ athletics. Being bound by “the rules” as written in order to play in OHSAA postseason is sufficient on the matter, as is the economy of public-private school partnerships on the playing field.

Alienating private schools to the point of exclusion is not in the best interest of Ohio’s public schools with regards to sports.
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Did you know in Texas there's strict rules about recruiting. And the UIL is almost exclusively for public schools.

Yet TAPPS, the largest association for parochial schools, uses the exact same UIL rules because they're against recruiting, too.

It's rather telling that most parochial fans in Ohio use the cudgel of "if you don't let us stay and dominate we'll do exactly what we say we're not currently doing."

If the risk of punishment is the only thing keeping you honest.... You're not an honest person.
 
Sykotyk said:
It's rather telling that most parochial fans in Ohio use the cudgel of "if you don't let us stay and dominate we'll do exactly what we say we're not currently doing."

If the risk of punishment is the only thing keeping you honest.... You're not an honest person.
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Counterpoint: not pursuing the most promising path to increase your numbers, if higher enrollment is desired, is senseless.
 
The Dock said:
Counterpoint: not pursuing the most promising path to increase your numbers, if higher enrollment is desired, is senseless.
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If that's the case, the argument they're beating all the public schools is.... For their own good?

If higher enrollment is desired, and you'd think a Christian based school would want as many sponges of information to soak up the dogma, not winning a state title and instead simply operating on their own in their own association would be the ideal path.

They're limiting the spread of their primary mission to brag about beating other children in a game....
 
queencitybuckeye said:
True, but what would be per se wrong with recruiting?
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Essentially nothing. If all schools were equal.

And it's not that schools would be equal if all could recruit. It's that the divisional parameters are decided by enrollment, and many public schools are legally forced to enroll children simply because they live within a geographic area surrounding the school and in lieu of enrolling anywhere else or homeschooling, have to take them.

Private schools have no such starting point. They take only kids they want. Any bad kids (academically or behaviorally) can be punted back to the local public school. They also can exclude any special needs kids that may require extensive and expensive help both physically and mentally, to learn. The public schools then have to shoulder that expense.

My theory is that if a parent is paying for private school most simply won't put up with bad grades or not participating in the schools extracurriculars.

Only count C & Up regularly attending students, and I'm fairly confident you'll see enrollment numbers of schools more closely match their athletic ability than simply because they have hundreds of kids who are "legally required to be there" not pushing up the number.
 
Sykotyk said:
My theory is that if a parent is paying for private school most simply won't put up with bad grades or not participating in the schools extracurriculars.

You have no idea how correct your theory is. The kids know it too, and they're often reminded by their parents that their $18,000 a year tuition is preventing the family from getting a new car or going on a fancy family vacation.
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The kids know it too, and they're often reminded by their parents that their $18,000 a year tuition is preventing the family from getting a new car or going on a fancy family vacation.
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What can they buy in lieu of a year's tuition at University School:

Grades Junior K - 4: $17,420 - $29,760
Grades 5 - 8: $30,750 - $33,760
Grades 9 - 12: $33,760 - $36,770
 
Wasn’t St. Edward the only private school winner this year across 7 Divisions? Not to mention every private school in Div 2-6 may be playing up a Division or 2 because of competitive balance.
 
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Long ago, I thought making two private divisions, and 4-5 public divisions would be the right way to go, but that isn't the case. Is there a right answer? Unfortortunely there isn't one. The almighty dollar is what makes the programs go. The bigger the sport (cost wise), the less chance different schools will win. That is why; especially in the lower divisions, you can probably rattled off 4 teams and most likelt they will all have gone deep in the playoffs. With winning, comes money, which gives you better equipment, facilities, etc which brings in the talent via open enrollment or moving into the district. So to me, if you want success, go where the money is being spent on the teams. This is one reason private schools tend to be more successful (rich benefactors and their donations) I beated up that horse from all angles on this post. ?
 
My father grew up in Buffalo NY. Every year around Dec 1, like clockwork, he will say "Well, you know in New York, we always had two playoffs - one for private schools, one for public." And I will dutifully shake my head ruefully and say "I hear you." I'm such a good son.

But it's like clockwork, I tell you. Kinda like this subject. Honestly, I don't think it matters all that much, except to serve as a reliable hot-stove topic through winter and spring.
 
Sykotyk said:
Essentially nothing. If all schools were equal.

And it's not that schools would be equal if all could recruit. It's that the divisional parameters are decided by enrollment, and many public schools are legally forced to enroll children simply because they live within a geographic area surrounding the school and in lieu of enrolling anywhere else or homeschooling, have to take them.

Private schools have no such starting point. They take only kids they want. Any bad kids (academically or behaviorally) can be punted back to the local public school. They also can exclude any special needs kids that may require extensive and expensive help both physically and mentally, to learn. The public schools then have to shoulder that expense.

My theory is that if a parent is paying for private school most simply won't put up with bad grades or not participating in the schools extracurriculars.

Only count C & Up regularly attending students, and I'm fairly confident you'll see enrollment numbers of schools more closely match their athletic ability than simply because they have hundreds of kids who are "legally required to be there" not pushing up the number.
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This is spot on and an argument that I have used for years. There is another poster on this forum who always says the public schools must teach "all of God's children."

Regardless, DI is not as big of a problem as many think. Yes, the Catholic schools have for the most part dominated but you do have your Pickerington Central's, Colerain's, Davidsons, and Huber Heights Waynes. Although Mentor never won they made it to the finals what? 4 or 5 times under Coach Triv? Even though, as you mention, the big Catholic's have an advantage the larger public's have a chance because they have enough boys to somewhat absorb that advantage.

My beef is with the urban Catholic/private schools that have clearly gamed the system in order to keep their doors open and use EdChoice as scholarships to prop up CLEARLY better football/basketball teams. I always use Toledo CC as an example. 220 boys grades 10-12 and 100 of them play football with DI kids all over the place. There is not a public school in Ohio that has 220 boys grades 10-12 that comes close to enjoying the talent and depth that TCC and Hoban experience. Competitive balance is working but does not go far enough to address these smaller private schools that as you say recruit the best and brightest from the local public district and leave everyone else behind.

As another example one only needs to look to Michigan where there is no EdChoice/voucher program and where the public schools have seen an upsurge in championships. Schools like Cass Tech, Detroit MLK, and River Rouge, have all won state titles in divisions that were traditionally dominated by Catholic powerhouses. Those powerhouses are slowly dying (Brother Rice, De La Salle, DCC, Orchard Lake St. Marys) and not experiencing anywhere near the success that they once had as a direct result of the death of Catholicism and no EdChoice windfall to prop them up.

And of course we are talking about two different entities here in the OHSAA and the Ohio Dept. Education but make no mistake about it, EdChoice has been a driving force in making matters much worse in Ohio.
 
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irish_buffalo said:
This is spot on and an argument that I have used for years. There is another poster on this forum who always says the public schools must teach "all of God's children."

Regardless, DI is not as big of a problem as many think. Yes, the Catholic schools have for the most part dominated but you do have your Pickerington Central's, Colerain's, Davidsons, and Huber Heights Waynes. Although Mentor never won they made it to the finals what? 4 or 5 times under Coach Triv? Even though, as you mention, the big Catholic's have an advantage the larger public's have a chance because they have enough boys to somewhat absorb that advantage.

My beef is with the urban Catholic/private schools that have clearly gamed the system in order to keep their doors open and use EdChoice as scholarships to prop up CLEARLY better football/basketball teams. I always use Toledo CC as an example. 220 boys grades 10-12 and 100 of them play football with DI kids all over the place. There is not a public school in Ohio that has 220 boys grades 10-12 that comes close to enjoying the talent and depth that TCC and Hoban experience. Competitive balance is working but does not go far enough to address these smaller private schools that as you say recruit the best and brightest from the local public district and leave everyone else behind.

As another example one only needs to look to Michigan where there is no EdChoice/voucher program and where the public schools have seen an upsurge in championships. Schools like Cass Tech, Detroit MLK, and River Rouge, have all won state titles in divisions that were traditionally dominated by Catholic powerhouses. Those powerhouses are slowly dying (Brother Rice, De La Salle, DCC, Orchard Lake St. Marys) and not experiencing anywhere near the success that they once had as a direct result of the death of Catholicism and no EdChoice windfall to prop them up.

And of course we are talking about two different entities here in the OHSAA and the Ohio Dept. Education but make no mistake about it, EdChoice has been a driving force in making matters much worse in Ohio.
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Cass Tech has always been full of studs. But yeah, I see what you’re saying.
 
irish_buffalo said:
This is spot on and an argument that I have used for years. There is another poster on this forum who always says the public schools must teach "all of God's children."

Regardless, DI is not as big of a problem as many think. Yes, the Catholic schools have for the most part dominated but you do have your Pickerington Central's, Colerain's, Davidsons, and Huber Heights Waynes. Although Mentor never won they made it to the finals what? 4 or 5 times under Coach Triv? Even though, as you mention, the big Catholic's have an advantage the larger public's have a chance because they have enough boys to somewhat absorb that advantage.

My beef is with the urban Catholic/private schools that have clearly gamed the system in order to keep their doors open and use EdChoice as scholarships to prop up CLEARLY better football/basketball teams. I always use Toledo CC as an example. 220 boys grades 10-12 and 100 of them play football with DI kids all over the place. There is not a public school in Ohio that has 220 boys grades 10-12 that comes close to enjoying the talent and depth that TCC and Hoban experience. Competitive balance is working but does not go far enough to address these smaller private schools that as you say recruit the best and brightest from the local public district and leave everyone else behind.

As another example one only needs to look to Michigan where there is no EdChoice/voucher program and where the public schools have seen an upsurge in championships. Schools like Cass Tech, Detroit MLK, and River Rouge, have all won state titles in divisions that were traditionally dominated by Catholic powerhouses. Those powerhouses are slowly dying (Brother Rice, De La Salle, DCC, Orchard Lake St. Marys) and not experiencing anywhere near the success that they once had as a direct result of the death of Catholicism and no EdChoice windfall to prop them up.

And of course we are talking about two different entities here in the OHSAA and the Ohio Dept. Education but make no mistake about it, EdChoice has been a driving force in making matters much worse in Ohio.
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I always use Toledo CC as an example. 220 boys grades 10-12 and 100 of them play football with DI kids all over the place.

Newark Catholic.. 84 boys in the entire school, 58 of them are on the football team.
 
Percidae said:
I always use Toledo CC as an example. 220 boys grades 10-12 and 100 of them play football with DI kids all over the place.

Newark Catholic.. 84 boys in the entire school, 58 of them are on the football team.
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That's not the number. You're using the OHSAA #, which only uses grades 9-11. ODE has them at 114 across all four for '20-21 school year (sum up the four values under Column 'D' after CTRL+F searching 053355, which is their IRN.)

Their percentage of boys playing football, with the numbers available (58/114) is 50.8%. At best, that's equal to Marion Local's 75/1xx, but all signs point to that number being a ratio less than ML's (the # of boys in grades 9-12 at MSML is indeterminate due to lack of data that separates boys from girls in public school counting.)
 
Percidae said:
I always use Toledo CC as an example. 220 boys grades 10-12 and 100 of them play football with DI kids all over the place.

Newark Catholic.. 84 boys in the entire school, 58 of them are on the football team.
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You can use the MAC as a public school example because of the culture they have created BUT the one missing peice is the DI talent.

Most public schools with 220 boys grades 10-12 are lucky to have one DI kid every 10 years.

Two years ago TCC had 7 kids holding DI offers. 220 boys, 100 playing football, and 7 DI guys with other younger talent not yet offered. It is an extreme outlier on a graph to the point that the only way this happens is through gaming the EdChoice system.
 
Percidae said:
I always use Toledo CC as an example. 220 boys grades 10-12 and 100 of them play football with DI kids all over the place.

Newark Catholic.. 84 boys in the entire school, 58 of them are on the football team.
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How many boys are there on EdChoice vouchers? I would think at Newark not many, I could be wrong.
 
In NY State, if a public school plays a Catholic school and wins the public school gets zero computer points. It really discourages public schools from playing Catholic schools.

And, the public school state championships are completely separate from the Catholic school championships.
 
Sykotyk said:
.......................... They also can exclude any special needs kids that may require extensive and expensive help both physically and mentally, to learn. The public schools then have to shoulder that expense.................................................
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Actually, The Feds and State pay for special needs students in both Private and public schools; the difference between public and private is that in the large cities there are private schools that specialize for particular categories [ex Austic, Hearing, etc]; but extra instruction [ex for dyslexia] at a private school is paid for by the State/Feds through the public school district., just the same as if that student was attending the public school.
 
Termite2 said:
Actually, The Feds and State pay for special needs students in both Private and public schools; the difference between public and private is that in the large cities there are private schools that specialize for particular categories [ex Austic, Hearing, etc]; but extra instruction [ex for dyslexia] at a private school is paid for by the State/Feds through the public school district., just the same as if that student was attending the public school.
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They may pay but a friend I worked with was told the catholic school wasn't able to handle a special needs kid and was better off going to a public school instead.

That was in PA. So it may be true, but not in practice in all circumstances.
 
Sykotyk said:
They may pay but a friend I worked with was told the catholic school wasn't able to handle a special needs kid and was better off going to a public school instead.

............................
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Yes, that happens; but it is also true that when public schools can't teach special need students, they can and do send them to private schools
 
irish_buffalo said:
Two years ago TCC had 7 kids holding DI offers. 220 boys, 100 playing football, and 7 DI guys with other younger talent not yet offered. It is an extreme outlier on a graph to the point that the only way this happens is through gaming the EdChoice system.
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You know, EdChoice could be helping a school like TCC without anyone "gaming" the system.
 
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