bob99
Well-known member
Interesting. I never knew that the original intent was basketball driven.
PAROCHIAL WAYS, IS IT FAIR ???
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The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Orrville, Smithville and Tuslaw have died by the privates many times. As has Chippewa and Waynedale, as well, over* on the girls side.
Cols. Africentric and the former Regina HS were also habitual season-killers for the WCAL.
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Crimson and Black
Well-known member
East Cleveland is the poorest municipality in Ohio. Maybe that’s a reason enrollment is declining.
ElderMackStud
Active member
I have always found this topic to be interesting and think (as someone mentioned before) regarding the different “business models” of each school really has an effect on how recruiting is viewed.
In general, Parochial high schools have to actively recruit ALL of their students as the families have multiple high school choices. In Cincy, depending on where they live, a young man could choose between 4-5 parochial high schools. That is a lot of competition. Similar to colleges, there is a correlation between success on the athletic field/court and higher student enrollment as people want to be part of a winner as well as your high school name is in the news etc so there is also is a an additional incentive to excel in sports. As an example, 2 GGCL (all girls catholic league in Cincy) schools won the state championship in Soccer & Volleyball this past fall. They were very aggressive in getting their teams to participate at local TV news programs, radio shows in the afternoon, evening and a local music station geared towards the younger generation. This approach is used by the boys schools programs when they have won a state championship.
Another advantage that parochial schools have is the grade school sports programs. Public schools have limited teams starting in the 7/8 grade. Parochial schools have multiple teams keeping more students interested in the sport and thus more numbers to choose from in the long run.
In general, Parochial high schools have to actively recruit ALL of their students as the families have multiple high school choices. In Cincy, depending on where they live, a young man could choose between 4-5 parochial high schools. That is a lot of competition. Similar to colleges, there is a correlation between success on the athletic field/court and higher student enrollment as people want to be part of a winner as well as your high school name is in the news etc so there is also is a an additional incentive to excel in sports. As an example, 2 GGCL (all girls catholic league in Cincy) schools won the state championship in Soccer & Volleyball this past fall. They were very aggressive in getting their teams to participate at local TV news programs, radio shows in the afternoon, evening and a local music station geared towards the younger generation. This approach is used by the boys schools programs when they have won a state championship.
Another advantage that parochial schools have is the grade school sports programs. Public schools have limited teams starting in the 7/8 grade. Parochial schools have multiple teams keeping more students interested in the sport and thus more numbers to choose from in the long run.
soccerdad72
Well-known member
Success breads success. If you're an 8th grader thinking about HS and you have a choice of private schools as well as your home district, you will likely lean towards the school that has recent success in your sport of choice. In NE Ohio, soccer players all want to go to Ignatius, football players to Ed's, etc.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
This is still true in some places but not everywhere. My HS's Catholic feeder system used to have multiple grade schools many with their own football teams. Enrollments at these feeder schools have declined to the point that the schools have had to combine to create 1 team. The pipeline is much narrower than it used to be for my HS and others in the same boat.
CrusaderZip0004
Well-known member
Sad, but true.
BillyTheKidder
Well-known member
Well I’m not going to discuss anymore whether the pursuit of happiness is more gratifying than happiness itself. Lol Even a public school grad like me knows the answer to that. I guess you’re thought process is a little too advanced for me. My little farm school scored one of those worthless trophies years ago. It was nothing short of a miracle . And I guess til my little farm school finds a way to convince the inner city athletes to take that 2 hour round trip though the cornfields to play running back for us , we’ll have to hope for another miracle.someday. But if it’s the only one we get in my lifetime I can live with that.
SVillegrad
Well-known member
I'm sure that is a huge reason for the declining enrollment. My point was that there are a couple of open enrollment public districts that do actively use advertising (in this case radio ... they both ran ads in the summer) to try to recruit students (and yes, in both cases, trying to get students ... not athletes).
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
I’m surprised the SCS’s don’t advertise some. Out here in AZ I see quite a bit of school districts advertising.
1. Leave East Cleveland out of this conversation. It is so poor, and so dysfunctional...it's 3rd world...not exaggerating. It is not the kind of city/school district that could be used as a platform for successful sports recruiting.
2. Do not confuse East Cleveland (Shaw High School) with the east side of the city of Cleveland (common mistake). The very poor east side of the city of Cleveland (where Glenville is) has far more going for it than East Cleveland.
2. Do not confuse East Cleveland (Shaw High School) with the east side of the city of Cleveland (common mistake). The very poor east side of the city of Cleveland (where Glenville is) has far more going for it than East Cleveland.
SVillegrad
Well-known member
I agree, and since I don't think people really understand the voucher program, I'll try to explain that better (and why I will not blame any Catholic school that chooses to go that route and accept the vouchers ... which they all do).
The state originally put it in place to include only students who lived in the Cleveland Municipal School District, when it was the lowest performing district in Ohio, regardless of income level (Cleveland Scholarship). That allowed any family living with the CMSD boundary to receive a voucher (it's now up to $7,500) to use toward a private education (students meeting income guidelines would receive additional aid on top of that). But the vouchers weren't set up to specifically steer those students toward Catholic schools, rather all the fly-by-night, private (for profit) start-up charter/community schools that were popping up (in vacant churches/schools; empty storefronts at a mall/shopping center, etc.)
That Cleveland Scholarship program then was extended to include all the big city districts and then later some low performing suburban ones (some, such as Parma, have been since removed, and others added). Any family in a district that qualifies for the Cleveland Scholarship can get that scholarship regardless of income, so yes, there are millionaires who live on lakefront properties in places such as Edgewater or Bratenahl who are getting that $7,500, even though their children never have been enrolled at a Cleveland public school.
The program was then expanded to include lower income students at any school district in Ohio, regardless of whether the public district was struggling. That has further opened up students to leave public schools for privates (you can get a list of how many students have done so by viewing the district's state report cards on the Ohio Department of Education's website). I'll use Strongsville as an example (a district that is high performing and has low poverty). Strongsville now has roughly 350 students out of 5,300 (over 6 percent) who have left the district due to vouchers – 240 to charter/community schools; 50 through EdChoice expansion (likely a nearby Catholic schools such as Holy Name/Padua/Ed's/Ignatius); and 60 through a special needs voucher through the EdChoice expansion program (I'm not sure where those students end up).
The expansion of the voucher program, which originally only affected the big city districts (and those ones are still staggering if you look at how many students they lose due to the programs), are now starting to affect every district, especially ones in bigger metro areas where there are dozens of community/charter schools and several Catholic/religious schools nearby.
The EdChoice expansion program has been a boon to Catholic schools who now can draw lower-income students even from more affluent districts. I won't doubt that the program has made the gap wider between publics and privates in athletics. With that, these voucher programs have been supported and pushed for by the state government (through lobbying by "educators" looking to line their pockets by starting for profit charter/community schools). The long-standing Catholic schools happened to also be a benefactor. But the issue isn't with the Catholic schools but with the state government, which has set up this system to funnel students to various private schools at the expense of the public districts (who foot the bill for the voucher money). So, IMO, if anybody has an issue with the program, they should take it up with their representatives at the state level and not blame the Catholic schools who have benefited from it from both an athletic and enrollment standopoint.
Edit: FWIW, here is the link to where I got the numbers for Strongsville. You can look up any district by viewing their "district details" link on the state report cards and scroll to the bottom.
Ohio School Report Cards
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Crimson and Black
Well-known member
Whoa, nice detailed explanation. I didn’t realize the depth of the voucher program.
Auggie
Well-known member
I wrote this elsewhere but the biggest user per capita for voucher $s are the Jewish Orthodox schools, the CH/UH school district in NEO, with large neighborhoods full of Orthodox students, is the lead plaintiff in a case where they are looking to make the Ohio voucher program unconstitutional. And believe me those folks at the Yeshivas are not worried about athletics.
www.cleveland.com
Nearly one year on, 130 school districts’ lawsuit challenging Ohio private school vouchers continues in court
The state and a coalition of over 130 school districts are awaiting a decision by a Franklin County judge on whether a nearly year-old lawsuit challenging Ohio’s private school vouchers will be dismissed or can continue toward trial.
www.cleveland.com
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Head Linesman
Well-known member
well only you know what changed or didnt change by your miracle but that miracle had zero effect on the rest of the world, and the same miracle occurs whether you win the last game or not, and for every team that doesn't win an OHSAA State Championship trophy, and that is all but 7 out of 700.
the reward is the quest, not the attainment of it. it's just the fact of amateur interscholastic competitions, the loser must benefit as much as the winner because the purpose is in the life lessons learned by the participants, all of them, win or lose and many would be of the opinion that the losers learn more about themselves and life, than the winners.
in other words, those who stack teams so as to win, are teaching their kids the wrong lesson, that it's ok to cheat, and that loyalty means nothing because what they won, was worth next to nothing in and of itself in the first place, that it was only the quest that taught them anything, and that applies win or lose.
Here is a hidden problem the Voucher system has for the Private Schools a Catch 22 so to speak.
Every 2 years the CB figures are recalculated. Some Privates have this figured out at the lower level D3 and below some haven't or don't care because regardless of Athletics they are just trying to keep the doors open and thrive.
The CB numbers are turned in, Your Division for Athletics is set for Fall in the Summer. Some Voucher students counted never ever cross your doors come fall, and the most glaring issue is many never return after the Christmas break.
So for 2 years you are stuck with real ghost students in the CB numbers and if you were pushed to a higher Division by say less than 10-15 CB Students your whole Athletic Dept. is burden with playing " Up" a Division that can have a affect and has.
If a School is really recruiting using the CB / Voucher system you can figure it out by looking at their CB numbers the year they are counted . But by looking at it by Divisions there might be 1 or 2 lower division schools doing this. Maybe
Every 2 years the CB figures are recalculated. Some Privates have this figured out at the lower level D3 and below some haven't or don't care because regardless of Athletics they are just trying to keep the doors open and thrive.
The CB numbers are turned in, Your Division for Athletics is set for Fall in the Summer. Some Voucher students counted never ever cross your doors come fall, and the most glaring issue is many never return after the Christmas break.
So for 2 years you are stuck with real ghost students in the CB numbers and if you were pushed to a higher Division by say less than 10-15 CB Students your whole Athletic Dept. is burden with playing " Up" a Division that can have a affect and has.
If a School is really recruiting using the CB / Voucher system you can figure it out by looking at their CB numbers the year they are counted . But by looking at it by Divisions there might be 1 or 2 lower division schools doing this. Maybe
BillyTheKidder
Well-known member
Whatever you say.
LOL. , whatever. You are one strange dude.
Head Linesman
Well-known member
its dirty work but someone has to do it.
but you notice there is no insult or arrogance in my position, right? I'm saying the scrubs who never even get in a game, benefit as much as the Mr Ohio guy.
perhaps more. it's my opinion that the entire value of the exercise is for the scrubs who never get in the game, because that's the vast majority of the participants. someone should do that study: count the number of scrubs total that never play a down in a single friday night varsity game.
I would wager it is the majority of all players suited up for all varsity games. but I'm not going to do the study.
I always thought that was a funny word used to describe all the guys that went to practice every day but never got in the game on Friday night. Scrubs.
here's an article written by a scrub, about scrubs:
Life's Hard For Football's Forgotten Scrubs
Dave's Note: I first wrote the column below in 1974, when I was a sophomore in high school; I'd just discovered, to my chagrin, that 120-pound defensive tackles aren't destined for superstardom in Class 5A football in the state of Texas...
bleacherreport.com
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You are spot on. I experienced this first hand because my son was on a few of those VASJ teams in basketball that destroyed those teams. The first team was Dalton. They had the best team in school history and we beat them by 40. Then the following year they played us at VASJ and we beat them worse. The third year we played Northwestern and they were led by supposedly the leading scorer in Wayne County - and they were beaten badly as well. That combined with what CCC was doing made several rural small schools livid. That is exactly what started the CB ball rolling. These teams would get to regionals or district finals and face a team like Joe's with several kids 6'7 or taller and ridiculous skill level. Several of those teams were beaten with the bench players playing in the second half. Since they were going to do the CB for basketball they decided to attempt to fix the complaints in football as well.
BillyTheKidder
Well-known member
Wow , and it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. And I only insult the truly deserving.its dirty work but someone has to do it.
but you notice there is no insult or arrogance in my position, right? I'm saying the scrubs who never even get in a game, benefit as much as the Mr Ohio guy.
perhaps more. it's my opinion that the entire value of the exercise is for the scrubs who never get in the game, because that's the vast majority of the participants. someone should do that study: count the number of scrubs total that never play a down in a single friday night varsity game.
I would wager it is the majority of all players suited up for all varsity games. but I'm not going to do the study.
I always thought that was a funny word used to describe all the guys that went to practice every day but never got in the game on Friday night. Scrubs.
here's an article written by a scrub, about scrubs:
View attachment 36935
View attachment 36936
Life's Hard For Football's Forgotten Scrubs
Dave's Note: I first wrote the column below in 1974, when I was a sophomore in high school; I'd just discovered, to my chagrin, that 120-pound defensive tackles aren't destined for superstardom in Class 5A football in the state of Texas...
Head Linesman
Well-known member
it has everything to do with the topic of the thread which is whether parochials have some "unfair advantage" or gain an advantage by winning.
since what the 0-10 team obtains is exactly equal to what a stacked parochial gains, there is no advantage gained by the stacked parochial team.
they both and all, get the same reward. therefore it's fair. it's a fair advantage, if an advantage, at all.
the parochials play by the same rules as everybody else.
John Lee Pettimore
Well-known member
You obviously misunderstood....badly.
John Lee Pettimore
Well-known member
And fans of YOUR school have been on here clamoring for OE (despite your already obscene CB numbers) for several years.
You should give it a shot, remember this year, you went 6-1 against the Fed....but 0-5 outside of it.
Sumpem ta think bout.
garydaddy1
Well-known member
I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on private-public separation for playoffs.
One thing has changed over the years that I feel is an improvement regarding private regular
season schedules. It seems to me that decades ago the private big boys (Eds, Iggy, Mighty Moe,
etc.) would schedule a large number of public schools, destroy them, and play one or two
heavyweights and call it a season. That has changed over the years. The major power privates are
scheduling each other and have huge matchups on a regular basis. And they also schedule
the public powers instead of outmanned schools that have no possibility of a victory. Now I
haven't gone back through time to review schedules to validate my opinion. This is simply my
impression of what has happened based on the fact that years ago I quit bit**ing about the privates destroying the publics because to be candid, it irritated the
out of me. If I'm inaccurate then
I guess my memory isn't all that good.
One thing has changed over the years that I feel is an improvement regarding private regular
season schedules. It seems to me that decades ago the private big boys (Eds, Iggy, Mighty Moe,
etc.) would schedule a large number of public schools, destroy them, and play one or two
heavyweights and call it a season. That has changed over the years. The major power privates are
scheduling each other and have huge matchups on a regular basis. And they also schedule
the public powers instead of outmanned schools that have no possibility of a victory. Now I
haven't gone back through time to review schedules to validate my opinion. This is simply my
impression of what has happened based on the fact that years ago I quit bit**ing about the privates destroying the publics because to be candid, it irritated the
out of me. If I'm inaccurate thenI guess my memory isn't all that good.
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bob99
Well-known member
I would be interested in your take. Was your son's VASJ teams made up of in school students or did some of the players come to VASJ from AAU teams or from other area teams? Do you feel the rural schools had an honest beef or just a case of sour grapes? If your son was one of the players on the rural squad would you feel it was a level playing field?
Generalbigcat
Active member
I heard of 1 school here in Cincinnati that does this. Lol
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Probably also of interest that those Wayne County lambs to the regional tournament slaughter routinely qualified out of District brackets that looked like this…
Like, they probably didn’t have a good idea of where they stood versus the rest of the regional. Not a very common set-up where a habitual champion would’ve been playing teams in back-to-back stages of districts for the third time, or if not a league foe a school down the road that you likely played in non-conference.
BleedPurple13
Active member
My biggest gripe with EdChoice is there is absolutely no accountability or transparency for tax dollars. Public schools and public school teachers are rated on individual students and their growth on test scores. Schools receiving tax payer money are exempt from even giving their students the same tests public schools are, let alone any of the other tracking that is required of public’s.I agree, and since I don't think people really understand the voucher program, I'll try to explain that better (and why I will not blame any Catholic school that chooses to go that route and accept the vouchers ... which they all do).
The state originally put it in place to include only students who lived in the Cleveland Municipal School District, when it was the lowest performing district in Ohio, regardless of income level (Cleveland Scholarship). That allowed any family living with the CMSD boundary to receive a voucher (it's now up to $7,500) to use toward a private education (students meeting income guidelines would receive additional aid on top of that). But the vouchers weren't set up to specifically steer those students toward Catholic schools, rather all the fly-by-night, private (for profit) start-up charter/community schools that were popping up (in vacant churches/schools; empty storefronts at a mall/shopping center, etc.)
That Cleveland Scholarship program then was extended to include all the big city districts and then later some low performing suburban ones (some, such as Parma, have been since removed, and others added). Any family in a district that qualifies for the Cleveland Scholarship can get that scholarship regardless of income, so yes, there are millionaires who live on lakefront properties in places such as Edgewater or Bratenahl who are getting that $7,500, even though their children never have been enrolled at a Cleveland public school.
The program was then expanded to include lower income students at any school district in Ohio, regardless of whether the public district was struggling. That has further opened up students to leave public schools for privates (you can get a list of how many students have done so by viewing the district's state report cards on the Ohio Department of Education's website). I'll use Strongsville as an example (a district that is high performing and has low poverty). Strongsville now has roughly 350 students out of 5,300 (over 6 percent) who have left the district due to vouchers – 240 to charter/community schools; 50 through EdChoice expansion (likely a nearby Catholic schools such as Holy Name/Padua/Ed's/Ignatius); and 60 through a special needs voucher through the EdChoice expansion program (I'm not sure where those students end up).
The expansion of the voucher program, which originally only affected the big city districts (and those ones are still staggering if you look at how many students they lose due to the programs), are now starting to affect every district, especially ones in bigger metro areas where there are dozens of community/charter schools and several Catholic/religious schools nearby.
The EdChoice expansion program has been a boon to Catholic schools who now can draw lower-income students even from more affluent districts. I won't doubt that the program has made the gap wider between publics and privates in athletics. With that, these voucher programs have been supported and pushed for by the state government (through lobbying by "educators" looking to line their pockets by starting for profit charter/community schools). The long-standing Catholic schools happened to also be a benefactor. But the issue isn't with the Catholic schools but with the state government, which has set up this system to funnel students to various private schools at the expense of the public districts (who foot the bill for the voucher money). So, IMO, if anybody has an issue with the program, they should take it up with their representatives at the state level and not blame the Catholic schools who have benefited from it from both an athletic and enrollment standopoint.
Edit: FWIW, here is the link to where I got the numbers for Strongsville. You can look up any district by viewing their "district details" link on the state report cards and scroll to the bottom.
Ohio School Report Cards
reportcard.education.ohio.gov
The question is how large is the diocese / parish, (counties / population) and how many feeder schools makes up your team?
You're too stupid to think that question has no relevance because you feel by the time you field a varsity team, the makeup of that team from the freshman year disappears and is forgotten, as they then mirror, a traditional school district.
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The Dock
Persona Non Grata
I’m not inclined to think it has any relevance, either, when the public school right down the road from me (who played in Canton this past weekend) has a CB # of 17 — which meant last year’s team had 7-17 open-enrollees on the roster (just depends on if they came in, and stayed in, before 7th grade.) That’s a decently big number!
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