OHSAA State Tournament - Would you like a Series or Double Elimination?
- Thread starter thePITman
- Start date
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Is
1) “the regionals’ and states’ competition each run as consecutive double-elimination tournaments”
or
2) “henceforth from the Sweet 16, the remaining stages of the tournament is a singular double-elimination bracket of 16 District Champions?”
The latter reading is a personally appealing idea.
to be interpreted as…
1) “the regionals’ and states’ competition each run as consecutive double-elimination tournaments”
or
2) “henceforth from the Sweet 16, the remaining stages of the tournament is a singular double-elimination bracket of 16 District Champions?”
The latter reading is a personally appealing idea.
thePITman
Well-known member
A couple of my thoughts:
- From a strictly competitive standpoint, it makes great sense. It requires teams to prove their depth/pitching, and it also allows a great team to bounce back after 1 bad game.
- In the last few years, the baseball season was extended a week. This would most definitely extend it even further. For that reason alone, the "double elimination starting at the Sweet 16" seems completely unrealistic, and maybe even the "double elimination starting at the Elite 8." Maybe another option is a 3-game championship series for not just State Semis and State Finals, but also the Regional Finals. But if they removed some of the off days between districts/regionals/state (there is a LOT of time off), it might help shrink the schedule a little bit.
- The OHSAA would have its hands full with the logistics - field availability, the fluid schedule, weather, etc. Do you re-bracket at the Sweet 16/elite 8? If so, teams are going to be traveling a TON. Or is each regional its own double elimination bracket?
- The OHSAA would make $$$$.
- My biggest gripe (and what first popped in my head): From a common fan's perspective - and as someone who has attended every game of every state tournament with my wife for 13 years - anything outside of a 3-game championship series would make it extremely difficult or virtually impossible to plan ahead if you want to attend and watch every game of the "state tournament." Granted, the term "state tournament" could take on a different meaning depending on the nature of the change.
- The College World Series is on my wife and my bucket list; but with it being 11-12 days long (weather pending), you can't just take a normal vacation and watch all the games, or even go watch your own team play all their games. You basically have to pick/guess a few tentative "best" days and hope for the best with teams winning/losing, and weather.
- If we were going to implement something, I'd probably do either (1) a 3-game series for the state semifinals and state championship, or (2) a double elimination starting at the Final 4.
- But I am totally fine how it is currently.
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thePITman
Well-known member
Hmm, I never thought about that. Both have their advantages. Re-seeding and re-bracketing for a single 16-team (or 8-team) double elimination would be great, but it could also be terrible for travel. Schools would never go for this, IMO. Plus, what would you use to seed? The OHSBCA where you have to pay a due for a chance at being ranked?
But a double elimination for each of the 4 regions might be more doable logistically.
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
In theory a double-elimination bracket (with any n teams being a power of 2) doesn’t have to be seeded. You can just randomly assign the districts to the lines.
I suppose I’m in the camp that wants the best baseball team to be leveraged playing off in the finals through a double-elimination system, while also wanting their opponent to be someone who was likely afforded the opportunity to stave off elimination via the liberty of saving the best arm for when they stood at X-1.
I’m not personally opposed to the current system, but when you get to thinking of ways of how to make a better tournament… the current system can look like crap by comparison.
I appreciate where everyone is coming from (i.e., for "the sake of discussion"), but how far are we willing to take this?
We've reached a point in our sports culture where we want to "fix" every possible situation that could ever possibly come up. In football...we've went from 4 to 8 to 16 teams per region and we all know...we are on the doorstep of letting EVERY team in. And not only that, there are plenty of people who want to eliminate regions and do a statewide top 32 in each region. In track, we've now allowed at-large bids to the state meet.
What's the next logical step to this? Where does it end?
We've reached a point in our sports culture where we want to "fix" every possible situation that could ever possibly come up. In football...we've went from 4 to 8 to 16 teams per region and we all know...we are on the doorstep of letting EVERY team in. And not only that, there are plenty of people who want to eliminate regions and do a statewide top 32 in each region. In track, we've now allowed at-large bids to the state meet.
What's the next logical step to this? Where does it end?
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
I see where you’re coming from but, in the specific case of baseball, rule changes from above the OHSAA in the last decade changed the trajectory of what it takes to ultimately win a state title when NFHS banged the innings rule and went to pitch count. And one specific annoyance to that point is the fact the State Tournament in its current form only spans three days — but it’s still played on the rotating calendar of Divisions versus Timeslots. This year D4 semi’s are on Thursday (which is small school friendly) but the next two years it’ll be on Friday.
Yappi
Go Buckeyes
100% in favor of the single-elimination tournament.
I would go so far as to change MLB playoffs and NBA playoffs into single-elimination.
Something I've learned over the years is that the "best team" always wins the championship. Getting your name in the record books as the champion makes you the best team.
IMO, single elimination is by far the most exciting tournament. Every game matters. No one gets to take a day off or have an off day. It demands perfection and the team that puts it all together becomes the champion.
I would go so far as to change MLB playoffs and NBA playoffs into single-elimination.
Something I've learned over the years is that the "best team" always wins the championship. Getting your name in the record books as the champion makes you the best team.
IMO, single elimination is by far the most exciting tournament. Every game matters. No one gets to take a day off or have an off day. It demands perfection and the team that puts it all together becomes the champion.
AllSports12
Moderator
Double-elimination tournaments and bad weather......
Nightmare
Leave it alone........ It's High School Baseball
Nightmare
Leave it alone........ It's High School Baseball
Gbulldog
Well-known member
Agree...I also like the strategy behind setting up your pitching for the "win or go home". I like the way it is.
BASESWIMPARENT
Well-known member
The best of three for the final would be cool. And there is a ton of time between games during the tourney so we might be to pull off the best of 3. But honestly, I don't think baseball is all the important for the OHSAA. The season is regular 8 weeks long at best and he tourney is stretched out for 4 weeks. We work around the weather, graduation, prom, spring break and for many coaches development is not a priority. At some point it just gets to be too hard. Squeeze the tourney down a week would be my idea so summer ball could get started.
If you want a double elimination tourney don’t let everyone be in the postseason. That would be a first step. A second one would be any of this hinges on teams playing two games in one day in earlier rounds. For example sectionals. Play game one then two other teams play then the winners play on the same day. Moves up the timeline.
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
I'll be in the minority on this one, and I'm perfectly fine with that, but I'd be willing to guess that over half of the teams losing in the first round of the playoffs, never wanted to be there anyway. They are only playing the game because they were told to. They know the results coming and are probably frustrated at having to keep their season going just to be run ruled in a game they had to travel to get to.
I'm all for everyone not making the tournament. Now where that cutoff line is, that's a discussion for another day.
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I would agree about the OHSAA. The tourney is not a big moneymaker. is what it is. Double elimination would be great from the Districts on. Four teams in each, maximum games would be 7 at each step:district, regional, state. Could be run thursday to sunday with no problem. NCAA was great how they run the regionals. They get them done in three days most of the time. Will never happen.
AllSports12
Moderator
Not only is it not a big moneymaker, it lost money in 2017 and 2019... and made less than $10k in 2016 and 2018.
This is very true. Imagine going in and knowing you’re playing what is an almost impossible game to win. Sure there’s upsets from time to time, but for the most part, those first round games are blowouts. Add to this the fact that because different divisions play on different days, you have teams who are still playing for conference titles during that first week. Heck, one year I had two teams who had already been eliminated from the postseason playing two games that had impact on the conference title for other teams. Add to it the weather related changes, especially the northern part of the state.
As an assigner, it’s hard to cover all these opening round games when there are other games still going on. When everybody makes it, you need to all hands on deck for those tournament games, not to mention all the other games going on. Further, the fact that many of those opening round games are going to be blowouts just makes umpires less wanting to work a playoff game and they could have a potentially better regular season game during that time.
Yappi
Go Buckeyes
Anyone going to today's games knows that the team they are rooting for is just 7 innings away from being eliminated. That is the kind of buzz that single-elimination games create. Both teams are celebrating their previous win but know they could be the next team to be heading home. It is such a great system because everything is on the line in every game.
Gbulldog
Well-known member
Agree...and thats why I dont beleive the Walsh v Moeller game was the " state championship ". Anything can happen
Over The Hills
Well-known member
Yappi you dead on here brotha.
Dead on…cept the pro sports parts lol
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
That's one way to get the whole postseason over in a week
*67
Well-known member
So the argument would be that the best teams do have the pitching for a best of 3 series consecutively...which should be the point of finding a state champion, no?
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
In theory any team faced with a best-of-3 could just pitch ‘down’ the first game and hold the better arm(s) back in the event that they’re standing at X-1. Go 2-1-3, 3-1-2 or the even more rare slate of 2-3-1 (as in they slate the ‘2’ or ‘3’ arm in game 1, game 2 pitcher is contingent on result of game 1 a la game 1 is won.)
My hypothesis is that when the rule went from IP to Pitch Count the eventual progression of crowning a state champion in the smaller divisions (3 and 4) was a matter of who had the least bad pitching in the third arm and beyond, and that it stopped being about “rewarding pitching depth.”