OHSAA needs to create new divisional placement

[djcoach]

Define "work" for us?



So much flaw with that, not sure I can give a concise response. Later.


If it's not "personal," is it "education?"

Your presumption of narrow-minded due to selfishness motivations is an argument flaw used to put people on defensive and pretend the argument won. Are you maybe making argument for what YOU want? How about this argument:

People are not trying to "hold onto the past." They are trying to hold together communities and keep us civil. The motivations, methods and solutions may be debatable, but they are neither "low" nor uneducated.

It worked in that none of the teams that were moved up because they were asked to didn't complain they were up in the open instead of winning their division in 6A or 5A. Everyone else elected to move up on their own

I can tell you this there are many many smaller schools in Ohio community teams and within 5 miles is another small community team. The difference in other states is that those schools have been combined for state funding or monetary reasons that make sense. When I suggest that to people in Ohio they scream you are taking away the history. Yep I am because back in the 60s those multiple schools made sense but now the proximity of some of these small schools doesn't lend to having multiple schools there for each township or village. people think they do but they don't anymore.

Majority of Ohio is in a population decline so areas that are outside of the major cities no longer need the amount of schools they have. I have to use personal experience and where I grew up and where i went to to have a baseline. What part of the state do you live in and we can determine if our experiences shade our thoughts. I am from the Mahoning Valley originally and I can tell you whole heartedly that the amount of schools definitely do not reflect the population there anymore and if there were less schools the sports would drastically change .

And to my point about holding onto past. 1000% yes NIL and AAU Overtime Elite and other changes are drastically changing the landscape in other states. Maybe not for the better but they are changing and whether anyone wants it to they better get on board or they are gonna miss that train. Do i love all these changes absolutely not but I know if a school or coach wants to be successful or an organization wants to succeed they will learn to adapt to these changes. Kids are playing club sports and travel teams in other sports and learning to go to same high schools to win together. In other states it happens way more. In Ohio it is only a matter of time before it happens there also. These are all things that people don't want to happen in Ohio but they will fight it tooth and nail until one day it just happens and they are behind the 8 ball as a state overall. Talent will leave the state and go somewhere they can grow.

Thats what I mean by people holding onto the past. NIL is coming to high school sports eventually other states have embraced whether we like it or not. Do I think high school should have NIL no but why keep fighting an uphill battle and figure out a proper way to utilize it? It is always a no I don't like that so I am not gonna do it

 

[D4fan]

It worked in that none of the teams that were moved up because they were asked to didn't complain they were up in the open instead of winning their division in 6A or 5A. Everyone else elected to move up on their own

I can tell you this there are many many smaller schools in Ohio community teams and within 5 miles is another small community team. The difference in other states is that those schools have been combined for state funding or monetary reasons that make sense. When I suggest that to people in Ohio they scream you are taking away the history. Yep I am because back in the 60s those multiple schools made sense but now the proximity of some of these small schools doesn't lend to having multiple schools there for each township or village. people think they do but they don't anymore.

Majority of Ohio is in a population decline so areas that are outside of the major cities no longer need the amount of schools they have. I have to use personal experience and where I grew up and where i went to to have a baseline. What part of the state do you live in and we can determine if our experiences shade our thoughts. I am from the Mahoning Valley originally and I can tell you whole heartedly that the amount of schools definitely do not reflect the population there anymore and if there were less schools the sports would drastically change .

And to my point about holding onto past. 1000% yes NIL and AAU Overtime Elite and other changes are drastically changing the landscape in other states. Maybe not for the better but they are changing and whether anyone wants it to they better get on board or they are gonna miss that train. Do i love all these changes absolutely not but I know if a school or coach wants to be successful or an organization wants to succeed they will learn to adapt to these changes. Kids are playing club sports and travel teams in other sports and learning to go to same high schools to win together. In other states it happens way more. In Ohio it is only a matter of time before it happens there also. These are all things that people don't want to happen in Ohio but they will fight it tooth and nail until one day it just happens and they are behind the 8 ball as a state overall. Talent will leave the state and go somewhere they can grow.

Thats what I mean by people holding onto the past. NIL is coming to high school sports eventually other states have embraced whether we like it or not. Do I think high school should have NIL no but why keep fighting an uphill battle and figure out a proper way to utilize it? It is always a no I don't like that so I am not gonna do it

Bring it on (NIL and talent pools of AAU teammates). I have followed high school basketball for almost 50 years, so probably time I moved on to something else.

 

[cdub4]

Richmond Heights is surrounded by Highland Heights, Mayfield Village, Mayfield Heights, Euclid, Lyndhurst and South Euclid. What “troubled” communities are you referring to? I think people have allowed some people to paint an inaccurate narrative of RH. There are four newer housing developments with homes ranging from 200-500k. All that said, RH attracts kids because they hired a great coach, went open enrollment, and have an awesome brand new building and gym. Just a few facts for you.

Facts. Wow, you sound like someone who is actually familiar with the area and maybe has even been through Richmond Hts.

 

[cdub4]

RH is just getting a few kids who would have went to Benedictine, VASJ, or Lutheran East instead. Or Cleveland Hts and Garfield Hts. It's actually pretty simple.

Cleveland does not have a good school system. There are also several schools on the east side of Cuyahoga County that I would say are similar in quality to RH.

If you are exploring options for where you kid goes to HS and basketball is a factor RH seems like a solid choice for people who are not happy with the local school.

 

[cdub4]

Something else that crossed my mind...I am a baseball guy. I was reading about how city baseball is suffering in cities like Cleveland and Columbus.

I am wondering if the opinions I am reading would be the same if a very talented 8th grade inner city baseball player, who plays high level travel ball and has D1 potential, decided to play at Ed's, Ignatius, or open enroll at a suburban public school for baseball instead of keeping it "homegrown" and playing for like a John Adams or John Marshall level baseball program and going 3-20.

I COULD be wrong but I think people would be more understanding of the situation if the hypothetical baseball star although the general premise/reasons of trying to find your baseball playing son the best path for HS and hopefully post HS success would be very similar.

 

[CasualFan24]

Something else that crossed my mind...I am a baseball guy. I was reading about how city baseball is suffering in cities like Cleveland and Columbus.

I am wondering if the opinions I am reading would be the same if a very talented 8th grade inner city baseball player, who plays high level travel ball and has D1 potential, decided to play at Ed's, Ignatius, or open enroll at a suburban public school for baseball instead of keeping it "homegrown" and playing for like a John Adams or John Marshall level baseball program and going 3-20.

I COULD be wrong but I think people would be more understanding of the situation if the hypothetical baseball star although the general premise/reasons of trying to find your baseball playing son the best path for HS and hopefully post HS success would be very similar.

1 player.....that's the discrepancy here. 1 player does it....nothing to see here....how about if 7 out of the 9 starters transferred in? Probably causes some eyebrows to be raised...

 

[serpico]

Something else that crossed my mind...I am a baseball guy. I was reading about how city baseball is suffering in cities like Cleveland and Columbus.

I am wondering if the opinions I am reading would be the same if a very talented 8th grade inner city baseball player, who plays high level travel ball and has D1 potential, decided to play at Ed's, Ignatius, or open enroll at a suburban public school for baseball instead of keeping it "homegrown" and playing for like a John Adams or John Marshall level baseball program and going 3-20.

I COULD be wrong but I think people would be more understanding of the situation if the hypothetical baseball star although the general premise/reasons of trying to find your baseball playing son the best path for HS and hopefully post HS success would be very similar.

I’m not one of the people complaining about RH, but you aren’t making a good comparison here. The fact that RH is in the smallest division is why people don’t like it.

Speaking of which, and I’m not being snarky with this question - I’m genuinely curious… if RH has so much to offer over neighboring districts, how is its enrollment still so low? You’d think kids of all types would be flooding in - not just star basketball players.

 

[CasualFan24]

I’m not one of the people complaining about RH, but you aren’t making a good comparison here. The fact that RH is in the smallest division is why people don’t like it.

Speaking of which, and I’m not being snarky with this question - I’m genuinely curious… if RH has so much to offer over neighboring districts, how is its enrollment still so low? You’d think kids of all types would be flooding in - not just star basketball players.

 

[nwwarrior09]

I looked and I think there are several in Cincy. They aren't very good though but lockland has been good in the past.

A bunch of those I think you would consider to be alternative or magnet options within CPS, and they might be fairly new. I would think of them like CAPE. It's very possible they could get closed abruptly at some point and be replaced by another flavor of the month alternative or magnet schooling option.

I would say that Lockland and St. Bernard-Elmwood Place are the only two that from a distance would be comparable to Richmond Heights. Lockland has had some really good teams in the past. I can't remember St. Bernard ever being relevant.

Ottawa Hills and Grandview Heights are both big money places to establish residence. Grandview does have a ton of rental property, but the cost is huge due to 20 and 30 something's wanting to be there. Every time I've been in Grandview over the last 5-10 years it seems to be tremendously over crowded with younger adults. Especially if closed enrollment (as I believe has been cited here), I don't really think you can "draw in" talent at either of those schools.

 

[green_genes]

A bunch of those I think you would consider to be alternative or magnet options within CPS, and they might be fairly new. I would think of them like CAPE. It's very possible they could get closed abruptly at some point and be replaced by another flavor of the month alternative or magnet schooling option.

I would say that Lockland and St. Bernard-Elmwood Place are the only two that from a distance would be comparable to Richmond Heights. Lockland has had some really good teams in the past. I can't remember St. Bernard ever being relevant.

Ottawa Hills and Grandview Heights are both big money places to establish residence. Grandview does have a ton of rental property, but the cost is huge due to 20 and 30 something's wanting to be there. Every time I've been in Grandview over the last 5-10 years it seems to be tremendously over crowded with younger adults. Especially if closed enrollment (as I believe has been cited here), I don't really think you can "draw in" talent at either of those schools.

Rossford with brand new facilities, open enrollment, and a coaching opening will be an interesting case study.

 

[cdub4]

I’m not one of the people complaining about RH, but you aren’t making a good comparison here. The fact that RH is in the smallest division is why people don’t like it.

Speaking of which, and I’m not being snarky with this question - I’m genuinely curious… if RH has so much to offer over neighboring districts, how is its enrollment still so low? You’d think kids of all types would be flooding in - not just star basketball players.

I appreciate the question. I am not sure I EVER claimed RH has SO MUCH to offer over all nearby districts. Honestly I think its the basketball. What I have said is I don't think its specifically D4 state championships so much as a D1 scholarship and the opportunity to be coached by a guy they know has history with the only Nike EBYL program in Ohio. Very rarely on here does anyone ever mention scholarships post HS. The coach has connections he coached an AAU team that won like 203 out of 210 games in 3 years.

I have never ever denied basketball is a huge part of the appeal. I will say that RH offers MORE than Cleveland schools or East Cleveland schools, is more affordable than private schools and offer similar opportunities education wise than lets say Euclid, Garfield Hts, Warrensville Hts, Garfield Hts, Maple Hts, Cleveland Hts, Brush etc or at least close enough that the tiebreaker is the basketball.

To be clear..I have never been to a RH home game, I wouldn't recognize Rogers if he punched me in the face. I am Ohio State alum and fan who lived in Columbus 20 years and I know he coached the Jared Sullinger Aaron Craft All Ohio Red team about 15 years ago that was national known as one of the best AAU teams of that decade in country.

From what I understood at the time All.Ohio Red would beat teams.with eventual NBA teams and more talent with fundamentals and defense which as we all know is what AAU isn't known for. He actually from what I gather was the type of AAU coach most of you who hate AAU would respect. He actually COACHED his players up and beat teams with better talent which is very funny to say considering what is happening now in D4

 

[cdub4]

Never ever said it wasn't basketball related did I. I don't think you will find any posts where I claimed it wasn't about basketball to a large degree...but not solely.

BINGO LOL

 

[cdub4]

My question for everyone is why no ever mentions anything about D1 scholarships? Do these kids from the rural D4s want to play basketball in college?

Isn't college more affordable when you have a full ride? I mean literally almost none of you mention that aspect. I find that fascinating because IMHO that is the #1 reason this happens and none of the rural D4 defenders seem to give it a second thought on Yappi.

 

[Blue Jay Fan]

My question for everyone is why no ever mentions anything about D1 scholarships? Do these kids from the rural D4s want to play basketball in college?

Isn't college more affordable when you have a full ride? I mean literally almost none of you mention that aspect. I find that fascinating because IMHO that is the #1 reason this happens and none of the rural D4 defenders seem to give it a second thought on Yappi.

College coaches don't find talent watching high school games, they see it in AAU.

 

[cdub4]

College coaches don't find talent watching high school games, they see it in AAU.

Doesn't iron sharpen iron though? Doesn't HS coaching matter at all? There is a reason these kids go to prep schools and play at schools like IMG, Montverde, etc.

There is a reason why high school baseball players migrate to Moeller and Walsh. There is a reason why Bama, Georgia, and Ohio State get quality HS football talent....reason being quality coaching and quality practice reps.

Yes college coaches find players in AAU but if you think their HS program and coaching isn't relevant you are mistaken. The better coaching you have and the better , more intense HS varsity practices you have the better athlete you will become IMHO.

As long as parents and players seem to think that playing for better HS programs increases the chances of a D1 scholarship they will continue to pursue opportunities

 

[serpico]

My question for everyone is why no ever mentions anything about D1 scholarships? Do these kids from the rural D4s want to play basketball in college?

Isn't college more affordable when you have a full ride? I mean literally almost none of you mention that aspect. I find that fascinating because IMHO that is the #1 reason this happens and none of the rural D4 defenders seem to give it a second thought on Yappi.

Because the RH coach isn’t creating scholarships out of thin air. There are a finite number of them, thus X number of them will be given out every year. I would be very surprised if the RH studs got D1 offers BECAUSE they went to RH.

 

[D4fan]

Because the RH coach isn’t creating scholarships out of thin air. There are a finite number of them, thus X number of them will be given out every year. I would be very surprised if the RH studs got D1 offers BECAUSE they went to RH.

Totally agree. Most D1 potential talent is identified at a very young age. It is far more likely that a very raw talent would find their way to RH to refine their game and skills. Just because a rural kid plays in an urban environment, will not change the natural ability they possess, therefore unless the talent level is high enough there is zero point in moving a kid from rural to urban in hope of attracting a very coveted D1 full ride. The vast majority of great rural athletes are going to end up being D2 or NAIA level players. A great coach can impart their knowledge to their athletes, can refine their skills somewhat, but can do little if the raw material is insufficient to support D1 one level of strength and athleticism.

 

[cdub4]

Because the RH coach isn’t creating scholarships out of thin air. There are a finite number of them, thus X number of them will be given out every year. I would be very surprised if the RH studs got D1 offers BECAUSE they went to RH.

I don't think RH studs get BECAUSE they went RH. I don't think college football studs at Bama get drafted BECAUSE they go to Bama. But there is a reason why a 5 star QB from NEO might choose Bama over Kent. Again..iron sharpens iron.

Why do you think a lot of talented baseball players in NEO end up at Walsh Jesuit? I mean all those Walsh kids play more travel baseball than varsity games. From what you guys are telling me they are kind of wasting there money and the coaching and program and facilities at Walsh really don't give you any advantage or help as compared to playing varsity baseball at Stow or Twinsburg or Buchtel since baseball talent can be identified in travel ball.

Why did Malaki Branham from Columbus move in with his uncle in Akron to play at ASVSM?

Would Malaki Branham, who was Ohio Mr. Basketball, a freshman star at Ohio State and a first round draft after his freshman year be in the exact same place in life if he went to Columbus Walnut Ridge or Independence?

I am not saying there is no way Branham would be in the NBA or not been D1 now if he stayed in Columbus BUT he put himself in a better environment, had better coaching, traveled more and got more exposure at SVSM. You face better competition in practice.

Would you agree or disagree about this, specifically Branham...or even my WJ baseball example.

 

[nwwarrior09]

In basketball, I'm not sure I've seen much evidence let alone compelling evidence that moving schools matters in development unless you're going to a prep school where everyone in the practice is a scholarship basketball player and most if not all of your games are against other teams loaded with scholarship basketball players.

Being on the best possible AAU team matters a lot more for a kid attending a "traditional" high school.

 

[Yappi]

I think that every situation can be different. A great basketball player that goes to play with 4 kids better than him may not develop as much compared to staying at his local HS and being the star player.

 

[cdub4]

In basketball, I'm not sure I've seen much evidence let alone compelling evidence that moving schools matters in development unless you're going to a prep school where everyone in the practice is a scholarship basketball player and most if not all of your games are against other teams loaded with scholarship basketball players.

Being on the best possible AAU team matters a lot more for a kid attending a "traditional" high school.

AAU definitely matters more, but HS matters also. Every advantage helps. Every rep, every workout, every game. At least that is what coaches and parents tell their athletes and children.

Dogged approach helped Ohio State land Malaki Branham

It wasn’t just that Ohio State was persistent in its recruitment of Malaki Branham. It wasn’t necessarily...

www.dispatch.com

This article state that Malaki Branham attended Ridgeview Middle School in Columbus. That is located very close to Columbus Whetsone. I looked up Whetstone's record the last 3 years Branham played at SVSM.

2018-19 4-21
2019-20 6-16
2020-21. 2-5

Now granted Whetstone would have had a better record with Branham, but Branham won a state championship and Mr Basketball at SVSM. He could have won another title if not for COVID canceling a regional final vs Lutheran East. He played Sierra Canyon on ESPN. They played teams like St Ed, Lutheran East, Moeller, Ignatius, Brush etc etc. He played with Sincere Harris who is at Illinois...several other teammates who went D1. The schools I listed, most of them he played more than once at SVSM.

If you think or can guarantee that Branham would have had the EXACT same career arc and been a top 20 pick playing 70+ games in 3 seasons at Columbus Whetstone, in addition to playing on ESPN, that he would have won a state championship and Mr Basketball and gotten the same OSU scholarship that he would have playing 70+ games for Whetstone the way his career went at SVSM more power to you I suppose. We can agree to disagree. If you don't think the 70+ games at SVSM.wasn't more beneficial to his development 70 games for Whetstone I just don't know what to say. And I am just considering the 3 years on varsity, I am sure Branham benefited being on the JV at SVSM as a freshman too as opposed to Whetstone.

Regardless, what matters is what the parents and player believe and apparently Branham and his family thought SVSM was better choice for his development and brand...and as long as there are parents and players who also feel this way we are going to continue to see players trying to play for schools like Eds, RH, Moeller, etc.

Honestly I think you are in the minority and I think most of us agree a HS basketball player would be better of at ASVSM than Columbus Whetstone lol.

Everything I said in regards to Branham and SVSM applies to RH also.

 

[The Dock]

This is a little beside the point, but Ridgeview I’m pretty sure is Centennial and not Whetstone.

 

[nwwarrior09]

My first thought regarding the attendance thing was Luke Kennard sticking through at Franklin. I don't really ever remember them "scheduling up" some until his senior year. Mauled opponents for about 40 ppg at the end of his high school career against mostly highly inferior competition. Still went to Duke, got drafted in the lottery, and has made a ton of NBA money so far.

 

[D4fan]

My first thought regarding the attendance thing was Luke Kennard sticking through at Franklin. I don't really ever remember them "scheduling up" some until his senior year. Mauled opponents for about 40 ppg at the end of his high school career against mostly highly inferior competition. Still went to Duke, got drafted in the lottery, and has made a ton of NBA money so far.

Yes, but Kennard got his name out there in 8th grade when he played for the #2 ranked AAU team in the nation. He furthered his name by switching to Lebron's Nike team, and they got the Dunbar point guard who went to OSU, the Versailles kid who went to Michigan State, the Moeller kid who was the post player and went to Butler, on top of a few others. Ahrens family has produced three big time D1 players while playing rural small town high school basketball. The talent was obvious when they were in 8th grade. If all they had done was play for their high school, not sure they get high D1 offers. But by playing wing opposite side of Kennard he had huge opportunities to show his talent. That AAU team was pretty good, still one of my favorite moments when we knocked them off in the state AAU tourney.

 

[cdub4]

I will acknowledge Luke Kennard is an EXCELLENT example of a small school kid can stay home, have a legendary Ohio HS career, win Ohio Mr. Basketball, and it doesn't get any better than a scholarship to Duke. He was a 1st round NBA and has had a fine NBA career. I believe he and Branham had similar rankings as seniors, actually I think Kennard was ranked a little higher in his respective class. Great example!

Every situation is different, every family is different. There are differences in quality of local publics. I don't know exactly how far Franklin HS is from Moeller or CJ for example but the fact remains Kennard went from Franklin HS to a solid NBA. I am also familiar with the Etzlers, I remember John Deibler and Jake Diebler at Upper Sandusky. Yes, you can definitely go D1 and eventually play in the NBA coming from a more rural school or a average urban program.

The fact still remains that in urban areas you have more options in say a 10 or 20 mile radius than you do at Franklin, Crestview, or Upper Sandusky.

As I typed that it should be noted that the Eztlers' and Dieblers are basketball families and some had varsity coaches as fathers. Even in urban area like Cleveland areas most players play for the home school when their dad or uncle is the varsity coach. And to be fair, I think you have to admit having a varsity coach in the family as a father or uncle probably negates some of the advantages the majority of the kids getting would get going to a private school or bigger public.