Jim Harbaugh

I'm not sure Michigan is an attractive landing spot for 18-22 year olds anymore. Hate to say it, but when college football became more "athletic" many schools in the midwest lost their edge. Can you get kids from the south to come to Ann Arbor, Michigan? A few, but not enough to make a difference. Michigan has to "win the trenches" and win them big in order to even compete.
nwwarrior09 said:
They can do better than Jim Harbaugh, but they have to decide to be a legitimate player in NIL. They have the brand and the resources to compete in NIL and to successfully recruit nationally.

I don't buy the lack of viable replacements argument. More like lack of effort. They are a wealthy school in a wealthy league, and they are operating in a landscape in which the schools outside of the Big Ten and the SEC are going to be getting squeezed hard and struggling to keep up in the financial arms race in the coming years. They should be able to spend to a greater degree of relevance and consistency than what Harbaugh has brought.
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nwwarrior09 said:
Absolutely. If you spend the money in NIL, kids will come because it's one of the best college towns in the country with a fantastic campus and great athletic facilities.

I don't buy the idea that kids will go to Columbus, South Bend, and occasionally State College, but Ann Arbor which has significantly better social/cultural offerings than those places and is consistently ranked as a top-5 college town and a top 5-10 place to live in the U.S. is a bridge too far. They just have to drop the better than thou arrogance and actually behave like other big programs behave.
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I think we've seen enough of Harbaugh to know he'll do just about anything to win, and he's not been able to get the best of the best up there.
 
14Red said:
I'm not sure Michigan is an attractive landing spot for 18-22 year olds anymore. Hate to say it, but when college football became more "athletic" many schools in the midwest lost their edge. Can you get kids from the south to come to Ann Arbor, Michigan? A few, but not enough to make a difference. Michigan has to "win the trenches" and win them big in order to even compete.



I think we've seen enough of Harbaugh to know he'll do just about anything to win, and he's not been able to get the best of the best up there.
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Dude's got a personality that's like nails on a chalkboard, and seems to have a habit of wearing out his welcome and of wearing down people everywhere he goes.

Recruiting a 16-18 year old is part relationship and now part NIL/"above the table" money. He's not beating many if anyone in the relationship department, and to this point, they've been much more cautious/conservative in their approach to NIL.

For them to ever seriously compete again he has to go. If I were them I'd be very concerned about Freeman having any success at all at Notre Dame this year. With no head coaching resume, he's been beating them like a rented mule in recruiting head-to-heads so far, including pulling Lloyd Carr's 5 star QB grandson from a suburban Ann Arbor high school.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
Dude's got a personality that's like nails on a chalkboard, and seems to have a habit of wearing out his welcome and of wearing down people everywhere he goes.

Recruiting a 16-18 year old is part relationship and now part NIL/"above the table" money. He's not beating many if anyone in the relationship department, and to this point, they've been much more cautious/conservative in their approach to NIL.

For them to ever seriously compete again he has to go. If I were them I'd be very concerned about Freeman having any success at all at Notre Dame this year. With no head coaching resume, he's been beating them like a rented mule in recruiting head-to-heads so far, including pulling Lloyd Carr's 5 star QB grandson from a suburban Ann Arbor high school.
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As I've told my Michigan friends for years, you may not like/ want Harbaugh, but who you gonna get that's better and "fits" there? They tried Rich-rod and like him/ don't like him it didn't work out. You have to somehow attract kids to go to Michigan. Michigan's upper management is pretty hard headed in having "Michigan" people there and at some point you have to decide that's just not good enough. Ohio State blossomed once they decided Urban Meyer could come in.
 
14Red said:
As I've told my Michigan friends for years, you may not like/ want Harbaugh, but who you gonna get that's better and "fits" there? They tried Rich-rod and like him/ don't like him it didn't work out. You have to somehow attract kids to go to Michigan. Michigan's upper management is pretty hard headed in having "Michigan" people there and at some point you have to decide that's just not good enough. Ohio State blossomed once they decided Urban Meyer could come in.
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Go buy someone for $8-$10 million a year like everyone else is doing now. There are two Midwest guys in Matt Campbell and Luke Fickell that are sitting there in stepping stone jobs and that have recruited and developed talent to about the best of the many limitations of their current jobs. At the end of the day they have as much money to burn as anyone, but they have to be open to paying a premium amount for the best available coach and staff and to letting them do things their way.

You've made this point a few times now...but Urban Meyer began his college coaching career as a Graduate Assistant at Ohio State, and he has a master's degree from there. Not really an outsider, but certainly a home run. Hell, Michigan could probably buy him if they wanted. In spite of multiple disasters, his track record will get him another big college job if he wants to continue coaching.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
Go buy someone for $8-$10 million a year like everyone else is doing now. There are two Midwest guys in Matt Campbell and Luke Fickell that are sitting there in stepping stone jobs and that have recruited and developed talent to about the best of the many limitations of their current jobs. At the end of the day they have as much money to burn as anyone, but they have to be open to paying a premium amount for the best available coach and staff and to letting them do things their way.

You've made this point a few times now...but Urban Meyer began his college coaching career as a Graduate Assistant at Ohio State, and he has a master's degree from there. Not really an outsider, but certainly a home run. Hell, Michigan could probably buy him if they wanted. In spite of multiple disasters, his track record will get him another big college job if he wants to continue coaching.
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Could you imagine if Luke Fickell went to Michigan??? I'd love to see the backlash of that.
 
14Red said:
Could you imagine if Luke Fickell went to Michigan??? I'd love to see the backlash of that.
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I can’t see that happening. I truly believe the only college job he leaves UC for are: OSU, ND, or Penn St. I think there’s almost as good of a chance he gets offered an NFL job before any of those open back up
 
14Red said:
Could you imagine if Luke Fickell went to Michigan??? I'd love to see the backlash of that.
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Probably ought to be open to it. Wouldn't be the first time that somebody with ties either Ohio State/Michigan ended up at the other school.

If he's waiting around for Ohio State, Notre Dame, etc., he could be waiting around for a very long time.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
A lot of people seem to not like him/find him annoying, but I'd add Fleck to my short list of Midwestern coaches that I think would outperform Harbaugh. Big culture guy and kids love him. He'd be a recruiting juggernaut if he ever gets to a school with a big football brand and resources.
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Lots of coaches have come out of the MAC the last decade. Fleck is easily the most promising. He's got "it"
 
OhioBobcatFan06 said:
Lots of coaches have come out of the MAC the last decade. Fleck is easily the most promising. He's got "it"
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I've been very impressed with what he's done so far considering it's Minnesota. The Big Ten West landscape is a lot like the MAC in that the playing field is fairly level, and just like at Western Michigan he's progressively built them up.

If their RB didn't shred his Achilles in week 1 last year, IMO they would have won their division and probably would have had their second 11 win season since he's been there. Due to the COVID extra eligibility year, they'll have the same QB/RB tandem they should have had last year. I would expect them to seriously contend for their division and to go 9-3/10-2.

Somebody is going to scoop him up sooner than later, and after a few years they'll be very, very happy with the results.
 
Omar said:
I can’t see that happening. I truly believe the only college job he leaves UC for are: OSU, ND, or Penn St. I think there’s almost as good of a chance he gets offered an NFL job before any of those open back up
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I don't think Fickell would ever be welcomed back to Ohio State as head football coach. The year he was there, fairly or unfairly, nearly split Buckeye fans.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
A lot of people seem to not like him/find him annoying, but I'd add Fleck to my short list of Midwestern coaches that I think would outperform Harbaugh. Big culture guy and kids love him. He'd be a recruiting juggernaut if he ever gets to a school with a big football brand and resources.
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I think you have two kinds of coaches, the rah-rah types, like Fleck and Indiana's Tom Allen, who only gets 2-3 star talent and coaches them up to be semi-competitive, and the Urbans/ Ryan Day/ Saban/ types who get the cream of the crop. At the end of the day talent wins out and you can only take lesser talented kids so far. Don't get me wrong, it's great to see an Indiana team win 8-9 games one season and knock off a couple of the bigger big ten teams, but it's rarely sustainable. I'm not sure anyone's talking Minnesota football seriously. And anyway, you can win 10-11 games in the "other" big ten division and not be that great. I don't know how in the heck the big ten originally split their divisions and put Ohio State/ Penn State/ Michigan/ Michigan State all in the same division and Wisconsin in the other. Barry Alvarez must had been in charge of splitting up the teams.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
A lot of people seem to not like him/find him annoying, but I'd add Fleck to my short list of Midwestern coaches that I think would outperform Harbaugh. Big culture guy and kids love him. He'd be a recruiting juggernaut if he ever gets to a school with a big football brand and resources.
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I talked to someone who knows him and they said his act is not a "schtick." He is like that all of the time, which in my mind would be exhausting. Lol.

But it does beg the bigger question about what would Bama and Minnesota look like if Fleck and his staff swapped out with Day and his staff? I do not think the end result would be much different if at all. Of course you have to get there, but when it comes to certain coaches and their staffs I believe if given the talent to compete could win championships. Pat Fitzgerald and Kurt Ferentz also come to mind and do more with a bunch of 2 star recruits than anyone.

I thought Harbaugh did a great job when he originally came to UM but he got out foxed by Meyer and OSU and in trying to out-do the Buckeyes he abandoned his traditional offense in favor of poor hires at OC which did not fit with many of his initial recruits and caused a learning curve so to speak. Since last year's anomaly Harbaugh has come off as very smug IMO. He beats OSU and gets to the Final 4 once and acts like he has been there for years. He should enjoy it because in my mind, with the talent he has coming in vs what OSU has, he should never beat the Buckeyes again.

If the Buckeye's D is improved, and they have a more consistent run game to compliment Day's pass game, which I think they will, look out.
 
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14Red said:
I think you have two kinds of coaches, the rah-rah types, like Fleck and Indiana's Tom Allen, who only gets 2-3 star talent and coaches them up to be semi-competitive, and the Urbans/ Ryan Day/ Saban/ types who get the cream of the crop. At the end of the day talent wins out and you can only take lesser talented kids so far. Don't get me wrong, it's great to see an Indiana team win 8-9 games one season and knock off a couple of the bigger big ten teams, but it's rarely sustainable. I'm not sure anyone's talking Minnesota football seriously. And anyway, you can win 10-11 games in the "other" big ten division and not be that great. I don't know how in the heck the big ten originally split their divisions and put Ohio State/ Penn State/ Michigan/ Michigan State all in the same division and Wisconsin in the other. Barry Alvarez must had been in charge of splitting up the teams.
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The first two seasons it was actually the “Legends” and “Leaders” divisions and nobody could remember who the heck was in what division, so they changed it to east and west.
 
I buy that the average Michigan fan hates losing to Sparty more than losing to Ohio State. Losing to the supposedly lesser in-state school is like getting beat up by your little brother.
 
irish_buffalo said:
I talked to someone who knows him and they said his act is not a "schtick." He is like that all of the time, which in my mind would be exhausting. Lol.

But it does beg the bigger question about what would Bama and Minnesota look like if Fleck and his staff swapped out with Day and his staff? I do not think the end result would be much different if at all. Of course you have to get there, but when it comes to certain coaches and their staffs I believe if given the talent to compete could win championships. Pat Fitzgerald and Kurt Ferentz also come to mind and do more with a bunch of 2 star recruits than anyone.
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From what I've seen, I do believe that's who he authentically is. He's the energizer bunny lol.

Talent is the single most important factor towards being one of the few teams that can actually contend for a championship in college football. Every year it seems you post the numbers from Phil Steele as to the # of players each team has that are "top-25" nationally at their position, and it very strongly predicts who will be the top 2-3 SEC teams and the top 2-3 teams from everywhere else (Ohio State, Clemson, Oklahoma, etc.) that can actually win a game or more if they get to the playoff.

Look at Fleck and Matt Campbell's recruiting classes compared to their predecessors at their current schools, and look at how they recruited in the MAC, which I'd argue is as level of a playing field as one can get on in recruiting. They consistently outperform those that are in their "tier" that they are legitimately recruiting against. I firmly believe those guys would be pulling top 5-6 recruiting classes every year if they got in at a traditional "big name" program that has advantages. In an example such as Ohio State, they wouldn't be any worse off with either of those two instead of Ryan Day. They may have a different style and philosophy, but they would be able to get the Jimmys and Joes that you need to compete.
 
Another difference between the Saban model and the Harbaugh one is the feel for the the programs are very different, in Tuscaloosa they are all about the business of football. I had some dealings with Josh Jacobs and he said Saban ran a much tighter ship than Gruden did w/ the Raiders and there was absolutely no BS with Saban. No fatherly mentoring from Nick as there was no way could you f-up on or off the field as he would just cast you aside and bring up the next body because the entire roster is solid and there basically to play football. Of course Saban wants his guys to get that free education but no other aspect of the college experience played prominently into his program. With Harbaugh there is still some college to how he runs his shop and for the top four and five star players get this feeling during the recruiting process; many of these guys are advised these days to look at it like a business and decided on that then old school things like location, tradition, and fun factor of the coach/school.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
I buy that the average Michigan fan hates losing to Sparty more than losing to Ohio State. Losing to the supposedly lesser in-state school is like getting beat up by your little brother.
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I've always said that for many in Michigan, the MSU game is as big or bigger than the Ohio State game. No one in Ohio says that, of course.
 
Auggie said:
Another difference between the Saban model and the Harbaugh one is the feel for the the programs are very different, in Tuscaloosa they are all about the business of football. I had some dealings with Josh Jacobs and he said Saban ran a much tighter ship than Gruden did w/ the Raiders and there was absolutely no BS with Saban. No fatherly mentoring from Nick as there was no way could you f-up on or off the field as he would just cast you aside and bring up the next body because the entire roster is solid and there basically to play football. Of course Saban wants his guys to get that free education but no other aspect of the college experience played prominently into his program. With Harbaugh there is still some college to how he runs his shop and for the top four and five star players get this feeling during the recruiting process; many of these guys are advised these days to look at it like a business and decided on that then old school things like location, tradition, and fun factor of the coach/school.
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Spot on. Ryan Day and Lincoln Riley get top QB's and WR's because they send them to the show and they get paid.
 
14Red said:
I don't think Fickell would ever be welcomed back to Ohio State as head football coach. The year he was there, fairly or unfairly, nearly split Buckeye fans.
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Then Buckeye fans are idiots. He was put in a terrible situation and did his best. Not to mention, Urban felt he was good enough to keep on staff after he got the job.
 
Also, Fleck is a try hard. His antics might be considered quirky when they win 10 games, but they’re obnoxious when they’re not winning.
 
I can't envision any reality in which Ohio State would talk to anyone besides Luke Fickell if Ryan Day were to go to the NFL. It would be his job if he wants it before opening up to any other possible candidates.
 
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