Division I needs to be expanded

SVillegrad said:
I don't see how that's unfair when any school that has a number 500 or above should be able to put together a solid roster. I don't see the current breakdown being some magic number where Wadsworth at 632 is D1 but Riverside at 577 is definitely D2. Granted my scenario of adding 16 is also arbitrary, but I think something needs changed.
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Unfair may be a strong word. Let's use the word biased just my objection to your suggestion is biased.

Everyone's first step is to start at the top of the list with Mason at 1,300 and count down from there. 48, 64, 72, whatever. Why? What forces us to start there and base everything around a tail of the distribution. Like you said, set Ignatius and McKinley aside. But I mean REALLY aside and put them in a Super D1A.

What's wrong with starting with the middle/center/median school, count up 36 and down 36 and create a nice group centered around the middle. It'll never get done that way, and I'm not suggesting it for any reason other than to show there are other ways to get to a good solution without starting off the schools in the middle with a disadvantage. You and @eastisbest say that there are diminishing returns to size at some point. Perhaps, but name for me a public school that's beaten St. Ignatius or St. Edward not named Mentor or a public that's beaten St. Xavier or AB Moeller not named Lakota. Lakota and Mentor's massive sizes are AN advantage, not the only advantage, and that enables them to compete with the big privates in a way that the middle-sized schools never will.

For the record, I'm totally fine putting D2s NoRo and Brecksville in a division and region with current D1s like Strongsville, Brunswick, Wadsworth, and Medina. We can call it the Pioneer Division as we reconstitute the old Pioneer Conference. :) But not if that new D1 includes also mammoth schools like Mentor and/or mammoth privates like St. Ignatius or privates with "hand selected teams" like St. Edward. That's a suicide mission.
 
raising4daughters said:
Unfair may be a strong word. Let's use the word biased just my objection to your suggestion is biased.

Everyone's first step is to start at the top of the list with Mason at 1,300 and count down from there. 48, 64, 72, whatever. Why? What forces us to start there and base everything around a tail of the distribution. Like you said, set Ignatius and McKinley aside. But I mean REALLY aside and put them in a Super D1A.

What's wrong with starting with the middle/center/median school, count up 36 and down 36 and create a nice group centered around the middle. It'll never get done that way, and I'm not suggesting it for any reason other than to show there are other ways to get to a good solution without starting off the schools in the middle with a disadvantage. You and @eastisbest say that there are diminishing returns to size at some point. Perhaps, but name for me a public school that's beaten St. Ignatius or St. Edward not named Mentor or a public that's beaten St. Xavier or AB Moeller not named Lakota. Lakota and Mentor's massive sizes are AN advantage, not the only advantage, and that enables them to compete with the big privates in a way that the middle-sized schools never will.

For the record, I'm totally fine putting D2s NoRo and Brecksville in a division and region with current D1s like Strongsville, Brunswick, Wadsworth, and Medina. We can call it the Pioneer Division as we reconstitute the old Pioneer Conference. :) But not if that new D1 includes also mammoth schools like Mentor and/or mammoth privates like St. Ignatius or privates with "hand selected teams" like St. Edward. That's a suicide mission.
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Normal distribution. Standard deviation. All divisions do not need comprised of an approximately equivalent count of teams. (y)
 
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raising4daughters said:
Unfair may be a strong word. Let's use the word biased just my objection to your suggestion is biased.

Everyone's first step is to start at the top of the list with Mason at 1,300 and count down from there. 48, 64, 72, whatever. Why? What forces us to start there and base everything around a tail of the distribution. Like you said, set Ignatius and McKinley aside. But I mean REALLY aside and put them in a Super D1A.

What's wrong with starting with the middle/center/median school, count up 36 and down 36 and create a nice group centered around the middle. It'll never get done that way, and I'm not suggesting it for any reason other than to show there are other ways to get to a good solution without starting off the schools in the middle with a disadvantage. You and @eastisbest say that there are diminishing returns to size at some point. Perhaps, but name for me a public school that's beaten St. Ignatius or St. Edward not named Mentor or a public that's beaten St. Xavier or AB Moeller not named Lakota. Lakota and Mentor's massive sizes are AN advantage, not the only advantage, and that enables them to compete with the big privates in a way that the middle-sized schools never will.

For the record, I'm totally fine putting D2s NoRo and Brecksville in a division and region with current D1s like Strongsville, Brunswick, Wadsworth, and Medina. We can call it the Pioneer Division as we reconstitute the old Pioneer Conference. :) But not if that new D1 includes also mammoth schools like Mentor and/or mammoth privates like St. Ignatius or privates with "hand selected teams" like St. Edward. That's a suicide mission.
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I get what you are saying. If there were more of these mammoth sized schools, I'd be more on board. The outliers are really few and far between. ... I wouldn't consider Mason or McKinley (for example) schools at this point either as ones that have an advantage just because they have a such and such percentage advantage. I also wouldn't include Mentor (or Brunswick... you didn't mention them so not sure your take there even though their enrollment is identical to Mentor) as mammoth schools. Not anymore.

As for your question as to last public, outside Mentor, to beat both Ed's and Iggy. You don't have to look far or way back in the past. Medina did it two years ago in b2b weeks. Mentor has also done it recently with 300-400 less boys from their peak.

Seems like the answer is either really shrink D1 down to less than 20, or expand D1. I'm in the boat of expanding D1 out of those options. And that goes back to any school that has a boys enrollment number of 500 plus (in 3 grades remind you) should have enough students to pick from to form a quality team.
 
SVillegrad said:
I get what you are saying. If there were more of these mammoth sized schools, I'd be more on board. The outliers are really few and far between. ... I wouldn't consider Mason or McKinley (for example) schools at this point either as ones that have an advantage just because they have a such and such percentage advantage. I also wouldn't include Mentor (or Brunswick... you didn't mention them so not sure your take there even though their enrollment is identical to Mentor) as mammoth schools. Not anymore.

As for your question as to last public, outside Mentor, to beat both Ed's and Iggy. You don't have to look far or way back in the past. Medina did it two years ago in b2b weeks. Mentor has also done it recently with 300-400 less boys from their peak.

Seems like the answer is either really shrink D1 down to less than 20, or expand D1. I'm in the boat of expanding D1 out of those options. And that goes back to any school that has a boys enrollment number of 500 plus (in 3 grades remind you) should have enough students to pick from to form a quality team.
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I included Brunswick but they and Medina at 822 and 809 seem like an upper bound for fair competition to the current upper D2s. Mentor is showing at 882. https://www.ohsaa.org/school-resources/school-enrollment

Yes, I had a brain fart on Medina beating the NE Ohio Saints. Great program they've built but, again, they have a size advantage NoRo doesn't. Could NoRo do it? Well, hasn't worked since WW2.

If D1 needs more team, I'd suggest basing it solely on population the schools draw from. Meaning, I'd throw the D2 privates like Walsh, Hoban, and LaSalle into a Super D1 before I'd throw Brecksville and NoRo in as St. Edward's and St. Ignatius' practice dummies.
 
PDC said:
Fair point. If only teams like Princeton, Warren Harding, McKinley x 3, Upper Arlington, Hilliard Davidson x2, Colerain, Pickerington Central x2 could rise up and beat those damn privates.


Obviously the big privates have massive advantages, but that has zero to do with Ohio needing 7 divisions. ML is good enough to win probably up to the D4 title.
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You short changed Warren Harding 🙂 They won it, in 74, and 90. So it would be ×2. Also can add Warren Western Reserve 1973 State Champs.
 
raising4daughters said:
I included Brunswick but they and Medina at 822 and 809 seem like an upper bound for fair competition to the current upper D2s. Mentor is showing at 882. https://www.ohsaa.org/school-resources/school-enrollment

Yes, I had a brain fart on Medina beating the NE Ohio Saints. Great program they've built but, again, they have a size advantage NoRo doesn't. Could NoRo do it? Well, hasn't worked since WW2.

If D1 needs more team, I'd suggest basing it solely on population the schools draw from. Meaning, I'd throw the D2 privates like Walsh, Hoban, and LaSalle into a Super D1 before I'd throw Brecksville and NoRo in as St. Edward's and St. Ignatius' practice dummies.
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Pick Central is at 784 and has won 2 state titles and beaten us 3 times in the final 4 and beyond.

Brunswick isn't included much because they've sucked. 60 boys isn't a gigantic difference
 
D1 won't get expanded because there are plenty of public bigger d2 schools that wanted out of playing in d1 because of size disparity. No changes will be coming. Just let all d1 qualify at this point. It's really not a big deal because some teams will opt out.
 
The fact that 1-9 teams are playing in a playoffs says the system stinks in D-1. Not even the St Eds players want to play this game let alone the Stow who will get drubbed.
 
I think sometime in Jan-Feb the OHSAA should place each team separately into a division based on how good they are. They should also set all schedules like the NFL.
 
At the end of the day there can only be so many State Champions. By expanding the playoffs, they basically made one goal for everyone. Back when less than half of the teams made the playoffs, teams felt like they accomplished something if they got there but now not-so-much.

I think it would be great to go back to eight team playoffs and six divisions but hell will freeze over before the OHSAA does that.
 
SVillegrad said:
Yes, that would be the better title. I was thinking R1 specifically when I created it.
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I'm sure someone has already done it, but it would be interesting to see an entire division ranked by Harbins with the top 64 teams qualifying for the Playoffs and then have the 64 teams divided into 4 regions geographically after the fact.

Take division 1 for example, would #17 Lakota East from R4 who went 3-7 have qualified over any of the #16s from R1, R2 or R3? Which teams would have moved regions? Middletown from R4 to R2? Would any of it matter since we're splitting hairs between 1-win, 2-win and 3-win teams anyways?
 
adselder09 said:
I'm sure someone has already done it, but it would be interesting to see an entire division ranked by Harbins with the top 64 teams qualifying for the Playoffs and then have the 64 teams divided into 4 regions geographically after the fact.

Take division 1 for example, would #17 Lakota East from R4 who went 3-7 have qualified over any of the #16s from R1, R2 or R3? Which teams would have moved regions? Middletown from R4 to R2? Would any of it matter since we're splitting hairs between 1-win, 2-win and 3-win teams anyways?
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Nope. Harbins across region indicate nothing as there's little cross regional games. The position is and should be, the best will get in. If 68 gets in over 63 because they're in a different region, 🤷 There are parts of this state in which schools do not have the same access to teams in the same or higher division that bring in those L2s. They may be every bit as good at a team in a different region, same or better record but fewer Harbins because of access to division level or competition in general.

Equitable representation by each region is a decent compromise.
 
Since the numbers game seems more acute in D1 (by that I mean in other divisions the teams with poor records get eliminated), couldn't the problem be solved by limiting the D1 playoffs to 12 teams instead of 16? That way, the top 4 teams get byes, the 5-12 teams play likely more competitive first games and the bottom teams aren't thrown in against the upper echelon teams. This scenario would keep the D1 playoffs on the same calendar as the other divisions.
 
eastisbest said:
Nope. Harbins across region indicate nothing as there's little cross regional games. The position is and should be, the best will get in. If 68 gets in over 63 because they're in a different region, 🤷 There are parts of this state in which schools do not have the same access to teams in the same or higher division that bring in those L2s. They may be every bit as good at a team in a different region, same or better record but fewer Harbins because of access to division level or competition in general.

Equitable representation by each region is a decent compromise.
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Fair argument and like I said, it's splitting hairs at the bottom of the barrel anyways.

For your last sentence to be true, shouldn't each Region at least have the same number of teams in them? R1 has 17, R2 and R3 have 18 and R4 has 19.

I just looked - Lakota East would have qualified:
#16 in R3 over Lancaster and #15 in R1 over Stow and Strongsville.

Really unfortunate thing for East is they beat Hamilton head-to-head. Hamilton qualified #16 in R4 due to more L2s. But again, won't matter because Moeller would likely turbo clock both.
 
It would be much easier to just say that a team needs to have a minimum of 3 wins to qualify for the playoffs. No teams with 1 or 2 would get in and several with 3, 4 or even 5 would
 
tcgobucks said:
It would be much easier to just say that a team needs to have a minimum of 3 wins to qualify for the playoffs. No teams with 1 or 2 would get in and several with 3, 4 or even 5 would
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I was thinking something along the same lines but, of course, that might require some teams to get a bye. I was actually thinking teams would need a minimum of 5 wins but that's just a detail that can be haggled over whether it's 2, 3, 4, or 5 wins minimum.

In D1/R1 for example, a 3-win minimum would put 15 of the 16 in with just Stow being left out. Does St. Edward get a first-round bye? Maybe that's a good thing and something to play for. At a 5-win min, only 10 would make the playoffs. Perhaps than 7-10 have play in games and the top 6 get a first-round bye like the NBA.

All of this is a tough call, pros and cons to every alternative. Too few playoff teams leads to soft schedules, no one playing the Saints, and pushes for more divisions and/or schools (and guys like me) lobbying to keep his school out of D1. Too many teams leads to 1-9 Stow playing 9-1 St. Edward. Running clocks seem to indicate that teams doesn't belong in the playoffs in the first place.
 
raising4daughters said:
I was thinking something along the same lines but, of course, that might require some teams to get a bye. I was actually thinking teams would need a minimum of 5 wins but that's just a detail that can be haggled over whether it's 2, 3, 4, or 5 wins minimum.

In D1/R1 for example, a 3-win minimum would put 15 of the 16 in with just Stow being left out. Does St. Edward get a first-round bye? Maybe that's a good thing and something to play for. At a 5-win min, only 10 would make the playoffs. Perhaps than 7-10 have play in games and the top 6 get a first-round bye like the NBA.

All of this is a tough call, pros and cons to every alternative. Too few playoff teams leads to soft schedules, no one playing the Saints, and pushes for more divisions and/or schools (and guys like me) lobbying to keep his school out of D1. Too many teams leads to 1-9 Stow playing 9-1 St. Edward. Running clocks seem to indicate that teams doesn't belong in the playoffs in the first place.
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How about the biggest 64 schools are D1- They all make the playoffs.

Smallest 64 are D7 They all make the playoffs.

Divide the rest into 5 equal divisions.
 
Here are the figures from the OHSAA website with raw male enrollment, no CB factors included. The challenge is creating divisions is that this is closer to half than a full normal/bell curve with a mode of 101-150, median of 188, and an average of 256.

A range of 601-1,300, excluding CB factors, gives D1 the holy grail of 72 schools. For 7 same-size divisions, you'd need to drop the floor for D1 to below 500.

Easy to see why the small schools call the shots and that just splitting D1 into D1 and D2 was a big lift for the non-rural schools.

Ohio High School Male Enrollment Figures.jpg
 
The easier way to fix this is to have only two regions for Division 1.
I think this was the case sometime in the past. It makes little sense
for a 17 team region to have 16 playoff teams.
 
WooHoo said:
The easier way to fix this is to have only two regions for Division 1.
I think this was the case sometime in the past. It makes little sense
for a 17 team region to have 16 playoff teams.
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At that point, just keep the four regions (for travel purposes) and cut Division I back down to the top 8. It was mentioned earlier that D1 could end a week earlier. I have no problem with that.

I'll also add this, you can keep divisions 2-7 all in Canton (3 Friday, 3 Saturday), but rotate the D1 title game between University of Cincinnati (SWO), Ohio Stadium (Central), Benson/Infocision (NEO) and University of Toledo (NWO). That kills a couple birds. A) eliminates the Thursday state title game; B) gives the other parts of the state an opportunity to host a title game (if those stadiums would be interested in it).
 
I won't believe anyone who tells me Stow is excited to play St. Ed's this weekend.

Nor John Marshall being thrilled to play even a below average Ignatius team.
 
PDC said:
I won't believe anyone who tells me Stow is excited to play St. Ed's this weekend.

Nor John Marshall being thrilled to play even a below average Ignatius team.
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I would think that Marshall would be pretty excited to make the playoffs for the first time in school history. Kudos to them.
 
PDC said:
I won't believe anyone who tells me Stow is excited to play St. Ed's this weekend.

Nor John Marshall being thrilled to play even a below average Ignatius team.
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Or Strongsville taking yet another drubbing from Medina.

BTW, I still get a kick out of Ignatius posters. Every year Ignatius is "below average." Below average teams aren't beating any of Mentor, St. Xavier, Mount St. Joseph or Football North (probably even the River Rouge team), let alone beating all five of them, lol.
 
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