D1 Districts

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VFL

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Started looking at some of the Districts in my area to see which one to pay attention to. Is there a deeper/harder district (to get out of) in the state of Ohio than Mason? There seems to be some incredibly fast times across the board on the boys side compared to some of the others in the SW. Is this traditionally the case because it seems incredibly unfair and needs realignment so that the best kids are at Regionals. Who makes these decisions?

4th places at Mason vs Ross vs Troy
100 - 10.77 - 10.95 10.98
200 - 22.14 - 21.99 - 22.25
400 - 50.71 - 51.32 - 51.61
800 - 1:57.12 - 2:01.52 - 2:02.39
1600- 4:15.95 - 4:37.91 - 4:37.78
3200 - 9:32.08 - 10:03.49 - 10:17.39
4x8 - 8:07.32 - 8:35.43 - 3:38.95
4x4 - 3:27.88 - 3:32.51 - 3:32.15
 
 
VFL said:
Is this traditionally the case because it seems incredibly unfair and needs realignment so that the best kids are at Regionals.
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SW District seeding was tried about 20 years ago. It was an unmitigated disaster and was dropped after a couple years. Seeding is difficult since teams often have different areas of strength and while you might have a balanced meet in, say, distance events you'll have super deep sprints, or vice-versa.

Personally I've always preferred being in as difficult a District and Regional as possible, seeing how the goal is the state meet. I consider it a privilege to have a district meet as deep as Mason. I think most(if not all) of the coaches there would say the same thing,
 
lane4 said:
SW District seeding was tried about 20 years ago. It was an unmitigated disaster and was dropped after a couple years. Seeding is difficult since teams often have different areas of strength and while you might have a balanced meet in, say, distance events you'll have super deep sprints, or vice-versa.

Personally I've always preferred being in as difficult a District and Regional as possible, seeing how the goal is the state meet. I consider it a privilege to have a district meet as deep as Mason. I think most(if not all) of the coaches there would say the same thing,
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So true. All those 4th place seeds he listed are probably from all different teams. There’s no way to move teams around to even out all events.
 
Having been a head coach in the SW and the Central, I prefer the seeding we do in the Central. Even though there are times when the picks of coaches don't make any sense to me. At the very least it tends to distribute the better athletes at least a little, and often a lot.
 
VFL said:
Started looking at some of the Districts in my area to see which one to pay attention to. Is there a deeper/harder district (to get out of) in the state of Ohio than Mason? There seems to be some incredibly fast times across the board on the boys side compared to some of the others in the SW. Is this traditionally the case because it seems incredibly unfair and needs realignment so that the best kids are at Regionals. Who makes these decisions?

4th places at Mason vs Ross vs Troy
100 - 10.77 - 10.95 10.98
200 - 22.14 - 21.99 - 22.25
400 - 50.71 - 51.32 - 51.61
800 - 1:57.12 - 2:01.52 - 2:02.39
1600- 4:15.95 - 4:37.91 - 4:37.78
3200 - 9:32.08 - 10:03.49 - 10:17.39
4x8 - 8:07.32 - 8:35.43 - 3:38.95
4x4 - 3:27.88 - 3:32.51 - 3:32.15
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You skipped over the Bellbrook district. Same region.

I believe the Bellbrook district 3200 has 5 guys under 9:23 at this point.
 
It happens from time to time. Go look at D2 and see what Marlington has in the 1600 and 3200. They are only allowed to enter 2. We have gone 1,2 at the state meet in the 1600 and 3200 before and could not enter our 3rd. Marlington could place 4-5 in the top 8 at the state meet. Where some of you think it's unfair to have a "stacked" district, I think it's an advantage. It gets you ready to perform.
 
yj_runfan said:
So true. All those 4th place seeds he listed are probably from all different teams. There’s no way to move teams around to even out all events.
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lane4 said:
SW District seeding was tried about 20 years ago. It was an unmitigated disaster and was dropped after a couple years. Seeding is difficult since teams often have different areas of strength and while you might have a balanced meet in, say, distance events you'll have super deep sprints, or vice-versa.
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I decided to look at the schools behind the times the OP listed, here they are:

100M - Withrow, Princeton, Moeller, Moeller
200M - Withrow, Princeton, Sycamore, Mason
400M - Mason, Sycamore, Kings, Walnut Hills
800M - Loveland, Loveland, Mason, Western Brown
1600M - Loveland, Walnut Hills, St. X, Loveland
3200M - St. X, St. X, St. X, Mason

If you expand to field events Milford, Turpin, Little Miami and New Richmond all have kids in the top 4. Moeller has 2 of the top 3 pole vaulters. And what does realigning the boys side do to the balance on the girls side, unless you're going to send boys and girls teams to different districts? I think it sounds good in theory but is difficult in practice.
 
Nobody is saying it would even out every event. But just look at the teams. More often than not, the GMC, ECC, and GCL champion is in the Mason district. Going back 10+ years now.

Forgot the individuals and just consider the team battle. How is that equitable?

Not being able to make it perfectly even is a lame excuse to not make it more even.
 
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Supertramp said:
Nobody is saying it would even out every event. But just look at the teams. More often than not, the GMC, ECC, and GCL champion is in the Mason district. Going back 10+ years now.

Forgot the individuals and just consider the team battle. How is that equitable?

Not being able to make it perfectly even is a lame excuse to not make it more even.
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Disagree on the GCL champions going to Mason more often than not, last 10 years only three went, last 20 only 6 went to Mason pretty consistenly not going to Mason (30%)
 
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What's an equitable solution? Seeding could be an option to explore, but it comes with its own issues.

On the other hand, as an athlete and coach, it is hugely frustrating when a district is WAY more stacked than others (take the 3200 in the SW this year - 23 kids have broken 10:00 in the Bellbrook district, 2 each at Troy and Ross.
 
Runningfast said:
What's an equitable solution? Seeding could be an option to explore, but it comes with its own issues.

On the other hand, as an athlete and coach, it is hugely frustrating when a district is WAY more stacked than others (take the 3200 in the SW this year - 23 kids have broken 10:00 in the Bellbrook district, 2 each at Troy and Ross.
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Are you suggesting moving entire teams to even out the 3200? Are people considering all events? Anomalies in one event are always going to happen. Cherry picking them to propose moving teams is crazy.
 
Supertramp said:
Nobody is saying it would even out every event. But just look at the teams. More often than not, the GMC, ECC, and GCL champion is in the Mason district. Going back 10+ years now.

Forgot the individuals and just consider the team battle. How is that equitable?

Not being able to make it perfectly even is a lame excuse to not make it more even.
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Winning a league title doesn’t mean a team is loaded with state level talent. Our team won a league title one year when they only had one first place winner. They were loaded with second, third and fourth place finishers in almost every event.
 
Here is another issue I have:

Why is this not consistent throughout the State? How come the Central Distrcit is allowed to organize things one way, and the SW District does things completly differently? I don't understand that. It should be consistent state wide.

Again, most coaches would agree the seeding method makes things more equitable. But at least in the SW, the coaches seem to have no influence in that decision. That's a shame.
 
Supertramp said:
Here is another issue I have:

Why is this not consistent throughout the State? How come the Central Distrcit is allowed to organize things one way, and the SW District does things completly differently? I don't understand that. It should be consistent state wide.

Again, most coaches would agree the seeding method makes things more equitable. But at least in the SW, the coaches seem to have no influence in that decision. That's a shame.
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The OHSAA allows the Districts to conduct their District meets how they see fit. I think that is a good thing and should allow the District boards to be able to seed or not seed and do things that are best for their schools and not be tied to what another District does. (This is in theory. NE District does not necessarily do what is best for their schools) The only reason any of this matters is because of the at large bids to the next two fastest/furthest/highest finishers at the Regional. It is still best to be 4th in your District and Region. That assures your advancement.
 
Supertramp said:
Why is this not consistent throughout the State? How come the Central Distrcit is allowed to organize things one way, and the SW District does things completly differently? I don't understand that. It should be consistent state wide.
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Because different parts of the state have different needs. By using the District Athletic Boards to organize tournaments at the Sectional and District levels, these needs are better met. This is true for all sports, not just track and field.
 
One of the reasons seeding works the way it does in the Central District is that our district meets are single site. So for example all three D1 districts are at Darby and both D3 districts are at Granville.
 
mathking said:
One of the reasons seeding works the way it does in the Central District is that our district meets are single site. So for example all three D1 districts are at Darby and both D3 districts are at Granville.
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This is a great example. This works very well for the CDAB. Given the geography of the district, most schools are within an hour of the site (the same site, regardless of which district) and if they want to run field events on one day and running events on another so you don't have to deal with athletes checking out...they can do that.

A setup like this would not work well in the NW because Celina and Sandusky would not want to make that trip 3 or 4 times during what is possibly exam week for them. This is why districts have a lot of flexibility in how they run their tournaments.
 
gatornation said:
(This is in theory. NE District does not necessarily do what is best for their schools)
For example sending Woodridge to the Lakeview District when it passes the Salem District on the way!!
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Worse yet, The Lakeview District does girls HJ and Girls PV at the exact same time. Does not work out well for a team that has the same two girls doing both events. They are on opposite ends of the facility.

You also have CVCA and others that could be at different Discticts. Cross Country is worse IMO.
 
I just noticed William Zegarski isn't entered in the 3200 and it looks like he hasn't run since the end of March. That's too bad, after setting the XC state record and winning the state indoor 3200 he'd have to be considered the favorite. Opens the door for a lot of other runners.
 
runs4funs said:
I just noticed William Zegarski isn't entered in the 3200 and it looks like he hasn't run since the end of March. That's too bad, after setting the XC state record and winning the state indoor 3200 he'd have to be considered the favorite. Opens the door for a lot of other runners.
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It is a darn shame. Especially having also missed his Junior CC season. Hopefully he can shut it down, get healthy, and focus on his college career. Wishing him well.

He ran a 9:04 at Indoor State. And then he solo'd a 8:33 3K and 4:00 1500m double in late March it looks like.

It probably will come down to Ackley or Chevalier for the 3200m title. Plant seems to be the favorite for the 1600. But anything can happen.
 
This Bellbrook District 3200m is an absolute gauntlet. There are D1 Regional 3200m races that aren't this hot.
The Troy and Ross 3200m District Champion probably wouldn't even score a point at Bellbrook.

Bellbrook:
Elking, Seth 9:08.74 Miamisburg
Agnew, Jack 9:10.18 Carroll
Souhan, Keegan 9:12.17 Beavercreek
Freyhof, Keegan 9:21.60 Springboro
Massie, Nathan 9:23.14 Beavercreek
Fleig, Jacob 9:23.68 Lebanon
Boring, Connor 9:35.19 Centerville
Ntwali, Innocent 9:40.45 Miamisburg
Job, Tyler 9:41.70 Centerville
Wilcox, Andrew 9:42.90 Monroe
Iiams, Ethan 9:52.35 Springboro
Billingsley, Trevor 9:56.69 Wilmington

Mason:
Chevalier, Ryan 9:07.67 Loveland
Goodrich, Will 9:13.36 St. Xavier
Houchens, Wyatt 9:31.93 St. Xavier
Amshoff, Aiden 9:32.08 Mason
Xu, Jerry 9:39.21 Mason
Towne, Lucas 9:59.53 Turpin

Troy:
Loudenslager, Max 9:40.57 Northmont
Jackson, Preston 9:53.86 Tecumseh
Coate, Braden 10:15.79 Troy
Burgh, Noah 10:17.39 Piqua
Taylor, Dylan 10:19.04 Tippecanoe
Schaefer, Will 10:26.20 Troy

Ross:
Shanks, Collin 9:54.43 Lak. West
Weber, Tommy 10:00.64 Elder
Srode, Nate 10:12.24 Oak Hills
West Poley, Luke 10:16.14 Talawanda
Kohls, Addisen 10:17.30 Harrison
 
Supertramp said:
This Bellbrook District 3200m is an absolute gauntlet. There are D1 Regional 3200m races that aren't this hot.
The Troy and Ross 3200m District Champion probably wouldn't even score a point at Bellbrook.

Bellbrook:
Elking, Seth 9:08.74 Miamisburg
Agnew, Jack 9:10.18 Carroll
Souhan, Keegan 9:12.17 Beavercreek
Freyhof, Keegan 9:21.60 Springboro
Massie, Nathan 9:23.14 Beavercreek
Fleig, Jacob 9:23.68 Lebanon
Boring, Connor 9:35.19 Centerville
Ntwali, Innocent 9:40.45 Miamisburg
Job, Tyler 9:41.70 Centerville
Wilcox, Andrew 9:42.90 Monroe
Iiams, Ethan 9:52.35 Springboro
Billingsley, Trevor 9:56.69 Wilmington

Mason:
Chevalier, Ryan 9:07.67 Loveland
Goodrich, Will 9:13.36 St. Xavier
Houchens, Wyatt 9:31.93 St. Xavier
Amshoff, Aiden 9:32.08 Mason
Xu, Jerry 9:39.21 Mason
Towne, Lucas 9:59.53 Turpin

Troy:
Loudenslager, Max 9:40.57 Northmont
Jackson, Preston 9:53.86 Tecumseh
Coate, Braden 10:15.79 Troy
Burgh, Noah 10:17.39 Piqua
Taylor, Dylan 10:19.04 Tippecanoe
Schaefer, Will 10:26.20 Troy

Ross:
Shanks, Collin 9:54.43 Lak. West
Weber, Tommy 10:00.64 Elder
Srode, Nate 10:12.24 Oak Hills
West Poley, Luke 10:16.14 Talawanda
Kohls, Addisen 10:17.30 Harrison
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Think about this:

The Bellbrook 3200m has 12 atheltes that have ran under 10:00 going into the Distrcit meet.

Based on the way the SW Districts are structured, the maximium number of athletes that could be at the Regional 3200m who have broken 10:00 going into the District meet (obviously more could on Friday) is 11.

This is my frustration: This is not unique to this year. Bellbrook and Mason are routinely more talented in most events than the other two Districts. It's demonstrable going back 10+ years now.

The SW should do something simliar to what the Central District does and move the Ross/Mason Distrcits to one site, and then the Bellbrook/Troy Districts to one site. You could seed the teams from there, or just combine the tournaments entirely and have 8 advance to Regionals. There are plenty of excellent facilities in the Cincinnati and Dayton region that could facilitate a larger District tournament. The Central District does 3 District tournamnets at one site, the SW could easily do two each at two venues.

This would actually mirror what the SW already does for Cross-Country at VOA and Cedarville.
 
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Two thoughts.

1. This issue screams for a 4th division in track. When you have D1 talent that can't get out of districts, you have a participation problem. Meanwhile, there are 7 divisions in football, playoff expansion, and everyone gets a trophy.

2. You could alleviate slanted districts by allowing more at-large qualifiers, like in Michigan. For example... Take the average 8th place finisher from the previous years (regionals in this case), and make that a qualifying standard for anyone who doesn't place in the top four at districts. Or only take top 3 in each district, and next 4 (or whatever) fastest.

If you're in section 1 in D1 in Central, you're up against Braun, Lane, and others. It's going to take sub 22 to get out of the 200. That's ridiculous. Same in SW district in those distance events. A 9:23 kid - a potential state champ in D3 - should be able to advance to regionals.
 
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At Bellbrook the fastest time in the 200 is 22.48. At Ross four guys are under 22.00, so the fastest runner at Bellbrook wouldn't qualify to regional
 
Lets see here...

The winning boys 4x800m time at Ross of 8:16.73 would have been:
6th at Mason
7th at Bellbrook

The 4th place boys 4x800m time at Troy of 8:37.78 would have been:
9th at Mason
7th at Bellbrook

The 5th place boys 4x800m time at Mason of 8:16.28 would have been:
1st at Ross
3rd at Troy

The 5th place boys 4x800m time at Bellbrook of 8:03.15 would have been:
1st at Ross
1st at Troy
4th at Mason
 
I like the super district idea - combine Troy/Bellbrook and Mason/Ross - advance the best 8. Like someone mentioned, that's basically what is happening at Cedarville in XC for the dayton districts. Increases the likelihood of the fastest kids not being punished for their geography.

I don't know all the ends and outs, but Illinois has a system where they qualify X amount of placers from Sectionals to State based on Sectional placement, but also advance "At-large" qualifiers based on hitting certain pre-determined time standards AT the sectional meet. That might be an interesting system - advance two or three from each district to regionals and anyone else who runs under XX:XX. Same deal to State. You finish seventh at regionals but run 4:16, you still get to go.


Edit: Looks like Illinois does top two finishers at sectionals automatically advance to state, then anyone else who hits the time standard in finals of the sectional meet also gets a bid.

Time standards for this year listed here
 
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