Coaches Lying on records for seeding purposes

 
Not sure lying about a record gives you any significant advantage, besides makes you look like a fool when your 42-1 kid get seeded number 1 and gets beat right out the gate. All records are not created equal, Most seed criteria your overall record is the last thing they look at. Typically goes state placement, district placement, sectional placement, winning percentage.
 
SPGT said:
Not sure lying about a record gives you any significant advantage, besides makes you look like a fool when your 42-1 kid get seeded number 1 and gets beat right out the gate. All records are not created equal, Most seed criteria your overall record is the last thing they look at. Typically goes state placement, district placement, sectional placement, winning percentage.
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Check out the 215 bracket at Centerville (on track) for a great example of this. Look at the 2 seed's record and the guys that beat him.
 
SPGT said:
Not sure lying about a record gives you any significant advantage, besides makes you look like a fool when your 42-1 kid get seeded number 1 and gets beat right out the gate. All records are not created equal, Most seed criteria your overall record is the last thing they look at. Typically goes state placement, district placement, sectional placement, winning percentage.
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I agree. There are some weights at sectionals without the first 3 criteria and the entire bracket is based off of record. It all gets sorted out once wrestling starts so in the end it doesn't really matter. I pulled up a few random seed nominations and there are surprisingly more than I thought there would be. Gallia, Northwestern, Fitch, Centerville (7 of 14 had no other seed criteria).
 
WGTJ said:
Check out the 215 bracket at Centerville (on track) for a great example of this. Look at the 2 seed's record and the guys that beat him.
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I get it, you’re saying the Crawford kid should have been the 2 seed and the bracket probably would have fallen differently on the bottom have. Centerville maybe gets the 4 spot and makes it to districts. Instead Fairborn kid lays the preverbal egg.
 
Hot_Takes said:
I agree. There are some weights at sectionals without the first 3 criteria and the entire bracket is based off of record. It all gets sorted out once wrestling starts so in the end it doesn't really matter. I pulled up a few random seed nominations and there are surprisingly more than I thought there would be. Gallia, Northwestern, Fitch, Centerville (7 of 14 had no other seed criteria).
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The posers get picked off pretty quickly!
 
SPGT said:
I get it, you’re saying the Crawford kid should have been the 2 seed and the bracket probably would have fallen differently on the bottom have. Centerville maybe gets the 4 spot and makes it to districts. Instead Fairborn kid lays the preverbal egg.
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No, I was just pointing out how a weaker schedule gets one a better record, but that doesn't mean the kid didn't legit wrestle and get those wins.

Saying that, what you said is true. Centerville kids schedule was definitely the tougher one. Northmont kids probably was as well, but I'm not sure.
 
It wouldn’t be that hard to have a system where coaches were required to put their wrestlers records into a state system weekly. And actual weights in at events too. So that people know when they made scratch weight and where. Holds coaches accountable.

I’m pretty sure that some states are already required to do this. Pretty sure most of them do it on Track.
 
MPhillips said:
Kids have been getting 50+ matches for decades...
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I agree 100% that wrestlers having over 50 matches have been happening for a number of years but decades is pushing it. LOL! I'm not sure exactly, but I'm thinking somewhere in the late 90's I began seeing a few numbers like this.
 
Stop doing things just because others do it. Why do we seed tbe way we do now? Why do we have the weight system we use now? Why did we switch from original state duals format? Why did we change weight classes? Why did we shoryen tbe season?
 
We have people recording as many matches as possible in Ohio for their own “ranking” purposes. Borofan and Dubstat come to mind. Both of them have ranking based on results that are very accurate, and even they do not have complete records.

A database used to keep all this data is not that complicated. The hardest part is collecting the data. If the OHSAA commissioned a simple database that required coaches to enter every single wrestler on their roster, and then also required home team coaches to enter the results of all the matches at their event, the data would be there. The OHSAA could make a rule that says if the result is not in the database, it can’t be counted on their record for sectional seeding purposes. Speaking of which, out of state matches are somewhat irrelevant for Ohio post-season seeding purposes. Some of the best wrestlers in Ohio are undefeated in Ohio, but have 5 or 6 losses due to out-of-state competition.

With actual results in a database, we wouldn’t have to rely on “criteria” for seeding. We could use more comprehensive algorithms or rating systems like Dubstat’s to determine seeding. Just my two cents.
 
My thoughts on Sectional Seeding...


Criteria for seeding is as follows :

1. District Placer or better from the year before
2. Record
* Head to head can be taken to a coaches vote but that doesn't happen as much as you think because a lot of teams don't wrestle similar schedules.


Here are my big issues:

1. We are seeding on LAST YEAR'S results. Please tell me another sport that seeds based on last season results.? There's a reason for that. You should earn this year's seed from this year's results. Kids improve. That's what the sport is all about. The regular season should mean something. Not last year's postseason. Wrestling can do better. Bring back seeding meetings for the sake of getting it right. Imagine if the College Football Playoff committee already pencils in Michigan as the number one seed next year at the end of the year for no other reason than they are the defending national champs...regardless of how they perform in the upcoming season. It's almost laughable to think about.

2. Winning percentage should be one of the last things we should be seeding on. Not all records are created equal. Why? All schedules/competition aren't the same. We are essentially rewarding teams/individuals with weaker schedules. It should be more about quality wins as opposed to quantity of wins. Again, could you imagine if the College Football Playoff committee came to the conclusion that New Mexico's 10-2 record holds the same weight as an Alabama 10-2 record? Common sense has to prevail for the sake of the sport. Wrestling had it right years ago by having a Wednesday evening seeding meeting before Sectionals, but somewhere along the way we decided 1) last year's results and 2) winning percentage was more important than taking one night and having coaches fight for their kids in a seeding meeting after they spend an entire season fighting for their coaches.

Ok. Done venting. Lol. But eliminating the current criteria might eliminate some of the coaches lying about records for seeding criteria. Just a thought.
 
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kbiz said:
A database used to keep all this data is not that complicated. The hardest part is collecting the data. If the OHSAA commissioned a simple database that required coaches to enter every single wrestler on their roster, and then also required home team coaches to enter the results of all the matches at their event, the data would be there. The OHSAA could make a rule that says if the result is not in the database, it can’t be counted on their record for sectional seeding purposes
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While I do not have a horse in this race, I do have a thought or two.
I have zero experience in creating a data base BUT I can tell you that the OHSAA pretty much forces schools and officials to use programs that they pay for in order to schedule events and assign officials. Previously Arbiter was used and now Dragonfly is their choice. They did not, for whatever reason, choose to have an in-house program developed.
In addition the program with their name on it, myOHSAA, is about worthless and certainly would not be up to the demands needed for this sort of application.
In short, I just don't see it happening.
 
If you maximize your scheduling points, wrestle at least 1 match in state duals, and place in state below 1-2 you can get 89 matches in a season. We figured it all out a few years ago.
 
BradSyfers said:
Why is this?

Also, how is mandatory score/results reporting implemented in those states?
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Those states have the scores reported through Track.
I have no idea why Ohio doesn't, outside of not wishing to add more work onto coaches or admins.

In terms of seeding structures across the country, prior year success is a factor used in some other states as well, and some variation of record is used as a consideration in some other states also.
 
Jim Behrens said:
While I do not have a horse in this race, I do have a thought or two.
I have zero experience in creating a data base BUT I can tell you that the OHSAA pretty much forces schools and officials to use programs that they pay for in order to schedule events and assign officials. Previously Arbiter was used and now Dragonfly is their choice. They did not, for whatever reason, choose to have an in-house program developed.
In addition the program with their name on it, myOHSAA, is about worthless and certainly would not be up to the demands needed for this sort of application.
In short, I just don't see it happening.
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I mean, I could write up a design doc and send it out for bids to see how much it would cost, present it to the committee and they could vote on it if they are interested. It doesn’t have to be that complicated. All it would do would verify which matches happened, their results and then things could be added down the road as needed.
 
kbiz said:
I mean, I could write up a design doc and send it out for bids to see how much it would cost, present it to the committee and they could vote on it if they are interested. It doesn’t have to be that complicated. All it would do would verify which matches happened, their results and then things could be added down the road as needed.
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Or just use track since it already does it.
 
I think the state and many coaches are fine with it. I challenged a couple seeds at our Sectional last season and there were multiple coaches unaware it was allowed or unhappy we were wasting time on it. There wasn't one challenge this season at ours.

I dont think it really affects state level kids in any manner... actually losing the challenge kept my hwt last season as the 3 vs the 2 and it worked out to a better draw and he qualified.

It did hurt one of my guys this season as the 2 best kids(in my opinion obviously) wrestled in the semis because the 4 wrestles a very tough schedule... my message to him was control what you can control.
 
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