Ask The Ump?

AllSports12

Moderator
I'm only asking because in this case, pretty much the entire team was suspended for 2 games. If forfeits don't count towards suspensions, and the team does not have enough players to play, then its a black hole that can never be escaped.
The OHSAA in the past has approved the “staggering” of multiple suspensions in order to avoid forfeits or even double forfeits.

It’s a case by case situation.
 

Gnep27

New member
The situation I saw had runner on first base but it would apply to any force situations. A line drive was hit to the SS who “dropped” it to attempt a 6-4-3 double play. Batter beat out the throw at first. If there had been runners on 1st and 2nd, it would have been an easy double play.

The opposing coach was arguing that he dropped it on purpose, which he likely did. However at the end of the day, the result of the play ended with 1 out with a runner on first (just the batter instead of the original runner).

The question I have is, is there a rule that prohibits a player from intentionally dropping a line drive to attempt a double play. If so, and the umpire invokes it, what is the outcome. I guess using the example of runner on first, would they assume a caught ball and the batter is out and R1 stays on first? If runners were on 1st and 2nd, and SS went 6-5-4 for a double play, can that be reversed and batter ruled out, runners remaining on 1 and 2?

My understanding is that infield fly would not be in effect on a line drive.

As always, thanks.
 

bucksman

Moderator
2-19 covers the definition of an infield fly, "a fair fly (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort ..."

5-1-1 (j) -> the ball becomes immediately when "an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly, fair line drive, or fair bunt in flight with at least first base occupied and less than two outs." The defined exception is the infield fly rule.

8-4-1 (c) -> ... "the ball is dead and the runner or runners shall return to their respective base(s)" - that being on an intentionally dropped ball by a fielder
 

Gnep27

New member
2-19 covers the definition of an infield fly, "a fair fly (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort ..."

5-1-1 (j) -> the ball becomes immediately when "an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly, fair line drive, or fair bunt in flight with at least first base occupied and less than two outs." The defined exception is the infield fly rule.

8-4-1 (c) -> ... "the ball is dead and the runner or runners shall return to their respective base(s)" - that being on an intentionally dropped ball by a fielder
Thank you!
 

VTJGball

Well-known member
What is the rule of a runner leaving his feet to avoid a tag.?
I have witnessed a runner jumping to miss tag from catcher twice this season in order to touch home plate and avoiding contact with catcher.
One time the umpire called runner out for leaving his feet, the other time runner was not called out.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
What is the rule of a runner leaving his feet to avoid a tag.?
I have witnessed a runner jumping to miss tag from catcher twice this season in order to touch home plate and avoiding contact with catcher.
One time the umpire called runner out for leaving his feet, the other time runner was not called out.
Jumping, hurdling, and leaping are all legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground.

Diving over a fielder is always illegal.
 

Gnep27

New member
Runner on first base, first baseman playing a few feet off the base. Pitcher throws over to first and runner is caught leaning and clearly out. The umpire said the pitcher didn’t throw to the base and therefore it was a balk. I didn’t see the play, I was told about it so that’s the best description I have. My question is, what is the correct rule about “throwing to a base”. I always thought as long as the runner was on that base, and the throw was in the vicinity, it was a legal move. The first baseman (fielder) doesn’t always hold the runner on base. I would love to know the actual rule. Always appreciate the replies.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Runner on first base, first baseman playing a few feet off the base. Pitcher throws over to first and runner is caught leaning and clearly out. The umpire said the pitcher didn’t throw to the base and therefore it was a balk. I didn’t see the play, I was told about it so that’s the best description I have. My question is, what is the correct rule about “throwing to a base”. I always thought as long as the runner was on that base, and the throw was in the vicinity, it was a legal move. The first baseman (fielder) doesn’t always hold the runner on base. I would love to know the actual rule. Always appreciate the replies.
This is one that is often misunderstood by coaches and fans, but should never be misunderstood by an umpire.

This is directly from the NFHS Case Book.

6.2.4 SITUATION J:

With R1 on first base and two outs, F1 attempts to pick off R1. As F1 pivots to throw, he realizes F3 is not on the base, but is in his normal defensive position. F1 completes the throw without interruption. The coach of the offensive team wants a balk called on F1.

RULING:

As long as F3 is in the proximity of the base, F1 would not be guilty of a balk. Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether or not the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner.


In your play, as written, (which is virtually identical to your play) this is not a balk.
 
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melba

New member
Player attempts to steal second, the tag is applied and runner called out, so the runner immediately hops up and heads to dugout. 2 seconds after the call of out is made ump sees ball came out and changes call to safe. The runner is now off the bag and is tagged out. After discussion between umps, the out call is upheld. Is this the correct call?
 

NothingButTheTruth

Well-known member
Scoring question....hopefully someone here knows the answer.

You are the visiting team. The game is tied in the bottom of the 8th. In the top of the 9th, you score the go ahead run. A relief pitcher comes in for the bottom of the 9th, no runs are scored, and you win.

Which pitcher gets credit for the win? I think it should be the pitcher from the 8th inning as they were the Pitcher of Record when you took the lead in the top of the 9th.

Unusual twist though....the relief pitcher in the bottom of the 9th is also the DH.....does this matter or is it inconsequential.

Thanks in advance.
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Player attempts to steal second, the tag is applied and runner called out, so the runner immediately hops up and heads to dugout. 2 seconds after the call of out is made ump sees ball came out and changes call to safe. The runner is now off the bag and is tagged out. After discussion between umps, the out call is upheld. Is this the correct call?

No, if an umpires ruling puts a team at a disadvantage, by rule, we are to correct said disadvantage.

The runner vacated the bag because he was declared out. If he was in fact safe bc fielder doesn’t have possession of the ball as thought, runner returns to 2nd safely.

If he called out without ball, he was too fast, happens to us all, but to uphold out bc he is now off the bag is poor
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Scoring question....hopefully someone here knows the answer.

You are the visiting team. The game is tied in the bottom of the 8th. In the top of the 9th, you score the go ahead run. A relief pitcher comes in for the bottom of the 9th, no runs are scored, and you win.

Which pitcher gets credit for the win? I think it should be the pitcher from the 8th inning as they were the Pitcher of Record when you took the lead in the top of the 9th.

Unusual twist though....the relief pitcher in the bottom of the 9th is also the DH.....does this matter or is it inconsequential.

Thanks in advance.
Don’t have an official rule cite but the P who last pitched when your team took the lead for good is winning pitcher.

So whoever finished the 8th gets win, whoever pitched 9th gets save
 

bigsteppa

New member
Sunday night in the 2nd inning of my sons 10u tournament game there was a bang bang play at home plate which resulted in a wild cleat to the forehead of ours teams catcher. He was rendered unconscious and had to be care-flighted off of the playing field. The kids were in shock and were not in the right mindset to finish the game. The umpire ruled that the game either had to be finished or would result in the forfeit of the game by my son's team. Rightfully so he got a piece of my mind, (and fist), after we got run ruled having no desire to play the game. Is there ever a circumstance that a rule like that should be disregarded or was the ump just doing his job?
 

Knight27

Member
Sunday night in the 2nd inning of my sons 10u tournament game there was a bang bang play at home plate which resulted in a wild cleat to the forehead of ours teams catcher. He was rendered unconscious and had to be care-flighted off of the playing field. The kids were in shock and were not in the right mindset to finish the game. The umpire ruled that the game either had to be finished or would result in the forfeit of the game by my son's team. Rightfully so he got a piece of my mind, (and fist), after we got run ruled having no desire to play the game. Is there ever a circumstance that a rule like that should be disregarded or was the ump just doing his job?
Did you just admit to hitting an umpire? As if you were proud of it?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Rightfully so he got a piece of my mind, (and fist),
Hopefully, you have a court appearance in your future.
Is there ever a circumstance that a rule like that should be disregarded or was the ump just doing his job?
That's a question for the tournament director, not the umpire.

One thing is for sure however, there is never a circumstance where a fan should strike an umpire for a decision he/she makes.

This matter is hereby closed to further discussion.
 
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CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Sunday night in the 2nd inning of my sons 10u tournament game there was a bang bang play at home plate which resulted in a wild cleat to the forehead of ours teams catcher. He was rendered unconscious and had to be care-flighted off of the playing field. The kids were in shock and were not in the right mindset to finish the game. The umpire ruled that the game either had to be finished or would result in the forfeit of the game by my son's team. Rightfully so he got a piece of my mind, (and fist), after we got run ruled having no desire to play the game. Is there ever a circumstance that a rule like that should be disregarded or was the ump just doing his job?
It was a 10u game man, who cares if they got run ruled. If those kids are playing for anything other than having fun and some basic fundamentals, they need a new team.

How about playing in his honor ? Or just forfeit and go to hospital to be with him bc that’s more important than winning a 10u game.

What would you have an umpire/tournament do? Especially on a Sunday (not like can finish next day) Make everyone come back another weekend so you can finish?
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Hopefully, you have a court appearance in your future.

That's a question for the tournament director, not the umpire.

One thing is for sure however, there is never a circumstance where a fan should strike an umpire for a decision he/she makes.

This matter is hereby closed to further discussion.
Oops, sorry AS, I replied before reading your response to him
 

NothingButTheTruth

Well-known member
Don’t have an official rule cite but the P who last pitched when your team took the lead for good is winning pitcher.

So whoever finished the 8th gets win, whoever pitched 9th gets save
Thank you Coach. This happened at the D2 college level and the SID at our school claims that because the last pitcher was the DH, it changes who is awarded the Win or Save. Makes exactly zero sense to me that the last pitcher being the DH has any bearing on the correct allocation. I agree 100% with your assessment.

Wins are hard to come by and I had to speak up, though it appears to be a lost cause.
 

TheTaxMan

Member
QUESTIONS for those more "in the know" than me.....

1. If a player or a coach asks a field umpire to move to the side so a baserunner can see better, does an umpire HAVE to move? is it common for him to say "No, I'm crouched down, you can see around me?"

2. If a batter is running to 1st base inside the baseline, and the play to throw him out is not impeded or involved with his running inside the baseline, could an umpire call him out simply for being out of the line?

3. Is it part of the rules that ONLY a head coach can address an umpire in a game? or is this just a generally accepted approach/courtesy that umpires want teams (logically) to follow?

Thanks for the info!
 

umpire16

Active member
I'm glad you think we're all in the know!

1. It is not a HAVE to situation, but most umpires will generally look to the fielders around them and adjust accordingly. Ideally, you don't want to be part of the play. In my experience, if I have a player ask, I will move. It is rare a coach asks. Umpires are part of the field in many ways, and if they are hit it's incumbent on what they were hit by and how as to what occurs. I am 6'7" and I can get myself out of the way pretty easily.

2. A short answer is No. He must run the last half of the distance (45') to first within the runner's lane which is the three foot lane in foul territory. Most fields do not have this painted commonly but that is irrelevant. A runner must be in it, and if the play is coming from behind him (i.e. the homeplate area), and he is NOT in the lane, once the throw occurs from the defense to first he is guilty of runner's lane interference. He is out and all other runners return to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch. There must be a throw. Before the 45' mark, he cannot interfere but the umpire shall not call him out for simply being inside. There countless situations we could discuss on this play, but this is the long and short of it.

3. Yes. We do not address assistant coaches. See 3-3-1f6. This rule covers arguments not cordial conversations. But the interpretation is that if you want to discuss a play or ruling, it must be the head coach. Clearly I am not going to ignore a coach who says "hi I'm so and so," at the start of the game.
 
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Just.here

Well-known member
Runner on 1st, less than 2 outs.
Short pop up to the first basemen who intentionally does not catch it. Runner stays on the bag and is tagged. Is he out?
 

umpire16

Active member
Runner on 1st, less than 2 outs.
Short pop up to the first basemen who intentionally does not catch it. Runner stays on the bag and is tagged. Is he out?
Depends. 8-4-1-c covers an intentional drop. It is a dead ball and all runners return to their respective bases.

Now clearly, as specified later this is INTENTIONAL so a ball that drops because a fielder plays it that way (i.e. a line drive they don't want to dive after that they let fall and then turn a DP). is not included.

So in your scenario, inning over. If there was say 1 out, you'd have two outs and the runner on first staying.

As a word of caution, intentionality is tough to judge in many cases. Clearly a towering fly is way different than a liner.
 

green_genes

Active member
I'm sure it's been covered over the last 54 pages, but:

Batter ejected after arguing called 3rd strike. Is there a suspension? Does he have to leave the dugout?

Just wondering, as it will probably directly affect my son's playing time tonight (he was not ejected, btw - he strikes out too much to argue about it).
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
QUESTIONS for those more "in the know" than me.....

1. If a player or a coach asks a field umpire to move to the side so a baserunner can see better, does an umpire HAVE to move? is it common for him to say "No, I'm crouched down, you can see around me?"

2. If a batter is running to 1st base inside the baseline, and the play to throw him out is not impeded or involved with his running inside the baseline, could an umpire call him out simply for being out of the line?

3. Is it part of the rules that ONLY a head coach can address an umpire in a game? or is this just a generally accepted approach/courtesy that umpires want teams (logically) to follow?

Thanks for the info!
1. No, we do not “have to” move. Good umpires are astute to the situation and while 95% of the time, I will move, I will not move out of position . For example i once was in C with R1 and R2, fast R2, and SS asked me to move to my left, I took a step left and he asked for more, I said “I’m sorry, I can’t, I’ll be in bad position if he tries to steal third”

Not making this up, once I was in C and heard an ask to move but kind of quiet, turn around , it’s the CF asking me to move. First and only time I’ve heard that, and no, I did not move for F8

2. Contrary to the previous response, I am fairly certain in HS there’s a stipulation that if umpire judges the fielder did not make the throw bc of runner running illegally, it can be called, but that’s a tough reliance and chance for the C to take, just make a throw and either get the out or get the INT. College and OBR require a field-able throw

3. Yes, the rules say that the head coach (or acting head coach should he be absent or ejected) are responsible for communicating with the umpire on behalf of their team. Asst coaches have very little rope when it comes to interactions with umpires
 

AllSports12

Moderator
2. A short answer is No. He must run the last half of the distance (45') to first within the runner's lane which is the three foot lane in foul territory. Most fields do not have this painted commonly but that is irrelevant. A runner must be in it, and if the play is coming from behind him (i.e. the homeplate area), and he is NOT in the lane, once the throw occurs from the defense to first he is guilty of runner's lane interference. He is out and all other runners return to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch. There must be a throw. Before the 45' mark, he cannot interfere but the umpire shall not call him out for simply being inside. There countless situations we could discuss on this play, but this is the long and short of it.
Just a bit of clarification here....

If the throw from behind is coming from fair territory, then the runner can be outside the running lane if he is on the foul territory side...... The same goes if the throw comes from foul territory and the runner is running outside the lance if fair territory.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I'm sure it's been covered over the last 54 pages, but:

Batter ejected after arguing called 3rd strike. Is there a suspension? Does he have to leave the dugout?

Just wondering, as it will probably directly affect my son's playing time tonight (he was not ejected, btw - he strikes out too much to argue about it).
If a player is ejected, he/she is permitted to remain in the dugout. (should that player continue to present a problem while in said dugout, then he will be directed to leave the area and the Head Coach will be responsible for having adult supervision with that player.

As far as suspensions....

OHSAA regulations cite ---

"Any player ejected or disqualified for unsporting conduct or flagrant foul shall be ineligible for all contests for the remainder of that day. In addition, the player shall be ineligible for all contests at all levels in that sport until the student has sat out two regular season/tournament contests (one in football) at the same level as the ejection or disqualification"
 

AllSports12

Moderator
3. Yes, the rules say that the head coach (or acting head coach should he be absent or ejected) are responsible for communicating with the umpire on behalf of their team. Asst coaches have very little rope when it comes to interactions with umpires
Assistant coaches have little or no rope when it comes to criticizing/attempting to argue an umpire's decision.

That said, I have spent my entire career talking to assistant coaches in every sport I have worked. There's nothing wrong with civilly discussing what you saw and why you ruled on a play. These men and women can be a valuable asset to you as an umpire.
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Assistant coaches have little or no rope when it comes to criticizing/attempting to argue an umpire's decision.

That said, I have spent my entire career talking to assistant coaches in every sport I have worked. There's nothing wrong with civilly discussing what you saw and why you ruled on a play. These men and women can be a valuable asset to you as an umpire.
I agree with you, I too was speaking about arguing/disputing calls.

Early in my college umpiring career, someone told me “those d3 and d2 assistants might be the head coach at one of your games down the road, and if they remember you as professional and approachable, it can only benefit you”
 

AllSports12

Moderator
2. Contrary to the previous response, I am fairly certain in HS there’s a stipulation that if umpire judges the fielder did not make the throw bc of runner running illegally, it can be called, but that’s a tough reliance and chance for the C to take, just make a throw and either get the out or get the INT. College and OBR require a field-able throw
Under NFHS Rules, there if there is no throw, there is no interference.

There's an official interpretation from 10-12 years ago that specifically states that a throw must be made in order for RLI to be declared.....

I'll dig it up when I have access to my laptop.
 
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