Ask The Ump?

VTJGball

Well-known member
Once it hits anything other than the ground in foul territory, it is foul (or caught if it is caught in the air).

once it hits the ground beyond the base (1st or 3rd) it is also foul.

The only thing that wouldn’t kill it is if it hits the ground only before the base bc it could still bounce/roll/spin it’s way back into fair territory if untouched.

Did the umpire not realize it hit the fence/pole?
To my understanding, he explained it to the coach that it bounced off the fence and went back in fair territory before 1st base so it is a fair ball.
I watched it on video and I can't see how he could have seen anything different than that.
 

bucksman

Moderator
In post 1557, I am thinking the intention of that ground rule is to address if a THROWN BALL hits the facing of the dugout on an inaccurate throw. As stated before me, the ruling for a hit ball, which is that it is FOUL is addressed by the book.

Similar as to post 1551, where the batted ball hits a fence in foul territory, which should kill the play with a foul ball.

With the obstruction question, is the proper mechanic on obstruction currently to yell "that's obstruction" or just to point at the obstruction, or both. I think it has changed since I started umpiring, so I figured I might as well ask here.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
With the obstruction question, is the proper mechanic on obstruction currently to yell "that's obstruction" or just to point at the obstruction, or both. I think it has changed since I started umpiring, so I figured I might as well ask here.
Both.....

Point while announcing "that's obstruction"..... then continue to umpire the play.
 

Gnep27

Member
This scenario happened today (and quite often without incident) and my son and I were talking about some of the variations of the play and what the rules would be. I would love to hear the answers.
Full count, runner on first. R1 steals, pitch is a ball. R1 slides into second and the throw clearly beats him. Field team and parents and everyone is cheering that R1 was caught stealing, obviously there is no steal attempt because it was a walk. So what happens in these situations:

1. The field ump calls runner out who then walks off the base and is tagged by the defense. Since he wasn’t out, is he now out for leaving base or the umpire’s call persuaded him to leave base, he would be safe?

2. Field ump doesn’t make a call but the player thinks he is out so he walks off base and is tagged, is he out?

3. R1 slides into second and over slides the base and is tagged by the defense, would he be out since he gets second for free but he went beyond the base? Or is it continuation of the walk?

Thanks in advance for the help.
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
This scenario happened today (and quite often without incident) and my son and I were talking about some of the variations of the play and what the rules would be. I would love to hear the answers.
Full count, runner on first. R1 steals, pitch is a ball. R1 slides into second and the throw clearly beats him. Field team and parents and everyone is cheering that R1 was caught stealing, obviously there is no steal attempt because it was a walk. So what happens in these situations:

1. The field ump calls runner out who then walks off the base and is tagged by the defense. Since he wasn’t out, is he now out for leaving base or the umpire’s call persuaded him to leave base, he would be safe?

2. Field ump doesn’t make a call but the player thinks he is out so he walks off base and is tagged, is he out?

3. R1 slides into second and over slides the base and is tagged by the defense, would he be out since he gets second for free but he went beyond the base? Or is it continuation of the walk?

Thanks in advance for the help.

First, any error by an umpire that puts a team at a disadvantage is required by rule to be corrected. So if the umpire calls him out not knowing it’s ball four, the runner would not be out for walking off the base.

If he walks off the base on his own, I’m getting an out, either by tag or abandonment.

The overslide I’d be curious to hear AS response, but the national rules secretary for NCAA just published an answer to this; he said that the runner is to be awarded second base even after over sliding ; so I’ll go with that as I am not familiar with a HS rule that states otherwise (ie, not unique to college)
 

umpire16

Active member
I’m not familiar with any HS rule similar to the NCAA interpretation that came out. I’m also on the car without a book handy. I’d go with the same mindset as the other scenario of players needing to know the game situation. He’s out. The batter runner is protected under HS for overrunning first as any normal play so long as he doesn’t attempt towards second. But I don’t know of a similar caveat (yet) in HS.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Batter/ Runner is protected at first base after a walk…. provided he does not “make an attempt” towards second (purely judgement on the umpire) (Rule 8-2-7 ….. this changed in 2018)

Based on the situations with the other runners….

1) Runner should be returned to 2nd as the umpire erred in making the out call

2) I have the runner out. The umpire did nothing wrong.

3) The runner is out. Only the Batter/runner is protected at first base in this situation.
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Batter/ Runner is protected at first base after a walk…. provided he does not “make an attempt” towards second (purely judgement on the umpire) (Rule 8-2-7 ….. this changed in 2018)

Based on the situations with the other runners….

1) Runner should be returned to 2nd as the umpire erred in making the out call

2) I have the runner out. The umpire did nothing wrong.

3) The runner is out. Only the Batter/runner is protected at first base in this situation.
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This is from NCAA rules secretary…is there a rule difference in HS that would make the runner out for over sliding on a walk?
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
So in the scenario where there is no one on and the count is 1-1, is it just a ball/strike based on location of pitch, throw ball back to pitcher and continue play?
Easy way to remember is it is the same as ball out of play.

If nobody is on base and pitcher throws a wild pitch that deflects off the catcher and into the dugout, does batter get first?

It’s nothing unless runners are on (assuming we are talking about a pitch still)
 

Knight27

Member
1st and 3rd. Pitcher is holding the ball for a long time in the stretch. The hitter pulls his hand off the bat and request time. Pitcher goes into his motion sees the timeout request and stops. Base ump calls balk. Home plate says ball was caused by the hitter and overrules. Time was never granted and the offenses argument was that if the pitcher threw it the pitch would have counted. Thoughts?
 

umpire16

Active member
1st and 3rd. Pitcher is holding the ball for a long time in the stretch. The hitter pulls his hand off the bat and request time. Pitcher goes into his motion sees the timeout request and stops. Base ump calls balk. Home plate says ball was caused by the hitter and overrules. Time was never granted and the offenses argument was that if the pitcher threw it the pitch would have counted. Thoughts?
Effectively, this would be a do-over. Under 8-2-4d, this situation is not a balk:

If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with both feet or (c) holds up his hand to request “Time,” it shall not be a balk. In (a) and (c), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher. The umpire shall call “Time” and begin play anew. In (b), a strike shall be called on the batter for violation of 7- 3-1. In (a), (b) and (c), if the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live. Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b). If the umpire judges the batter’s action to be a deliberate attempt to create a balk, he will penalize according to 3-3-1n.

Should he deliver the pitch, it would be live and, to use your language, have counted but the delivery must be legal (i.e. he didn't stop and continued the pitch). Since he stopped, it is now impossible to deliver the pitch legally.

I has this last night actually. Batter asked for time, I denied it, and the pitcher delivered legally. Batter grounded out to second and we ended the inning.
 

Knight27

Member
Effectively, this would be a do-over. Under 8-2-4d, this situation is not a balk:

If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with both feet or (c) holds up his hand to request “Time,” it shall not be a balk. In (a) and (c), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher. The umpire shall call “Time” and begin play anew. In (b), a strike shall be called on the batter for violation of 7- 3-1. In (a), (b) and (c), if the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live. Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b). If the umpire judges the batter’s action to be a deliberate attempt to create a balk, he will penalize according to 3-3-1n.

Should he deliver the pitch, it would be live and, to use your language, have counted but the delivery must be legal (i.e. he didn't stop and continued the pitch). Since he stopped, it is now impossible to deliver the pitch legally.

I has this last night actually. Batter asked for time, I denied it, and the pitcher delivered legally. Batter grounded out to second and we ended the inning.
Thanks for the explanation. Not your issue, but the rules seem to favor the pitcher. If the ump didn’t feel it was deliberate and didn’t grant the time it still feels like it should be a live ball situation. But that’s not how the rule is stated
 

umpire16

Active member
Thanks for the explanation. Not your issue, but the rules seem to favor the pitcher. If the ump didn’t feel it was deliberate and didn’t grant the time it still feels like it should be a live ball situation. But that’s not how the rule is stated
It is hard to gauge deliberate acts, for sure, as it's just like a judgement call. In my experience, if a batter steps out with both feet (as in b) it is not usually deliberate to cause a balk as much as it is either 1) they have an automatic assumption if they hold up their hand or verbally request time (or both) they get it no matter what or 2) they are showing displeasure with the call on the previous pitch. There are others, of course. In 2) it is deliberate towards the umpire. Effectively, calling time and starting over resets everything especially if no pitch is thrown and that's probably the best outcome anyway.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Thanks for the explanation. Not your issue, but the rules seem to favor the pitcher. If the ump didn’t feel it was deliberate and didn’t grant the time it still feels like it should be a live ball situation. But that’s not how the rule is stated
The pitcher is protected here because we don’t want kids stopping or altering their delivery….

that’s a blown out elbow or shoulder …. Or a pitch at the head of the batter just waiting to happen
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
Thanks for the explanation. Not your issue, but the rules seem to favor the pitcher. If the ump didn’t feel it was deliberate and didn’t grant the time it still feels like it should be a live ball situation. But that’s not how the rule is stated
This doesn’t favor the pitcher at all. Every rule is designed for safety, fairness, or both.

By rule, batters requesting time are not guaranteed to be granted, specifically if a P has already begun the motion to pitch…so if we balk a pitcher for this, why wouldn’t a batter wait until just as he starts, call time,
Hold hand up, step out, in an effort to get the P to hitch/stop/get distracted?

As a batter, I have free reign to TRY and deceive the pitcher…when a P does that, what do we call that? Oh yeah, a balk. You want to let batters do it?

Thwre are rules in place for deliberate and intentional acts, namely if the batter is adjudged to deliberately step out during the pitch, call a strike .

But 99% of the time, batter simply assumes they will get time, they don’t, so if P thinks he got time and stops, no one is penalized. It’s the batters act that caused this (step out without being granted time) but you think it’s unfair to not punish the P ?
 

Knight27

Member
This doesn’t favor the pitcher at all. Every rule is designed for safety, fairness, or both.

By rule, batters requesting time are not guaranteed to be granted, specifically if a P has already begun the motion to pitch…so if we balk a pitcher for this, why wouldn’t a batter wait until just as he starts, call time,
Hold hand up, step out, in an effort to get the P to hitch/stop/get distracted?

As a batter, I have free reign to TRY and deceive the pitcher…when a P does that, what do we call that? Oh yeah, a balk. You want to let batters do it?

Thwre are rules in place for deliberate and intentional acts, namely if the batter is adjudged to deliberately step out during the pitch, call a strike .

But 99% of the time, batter simply assumes they will get time, they don’t, so if P thinks he got time and stops, no one is penalized. It’s the batters act that caused this (step out without being granted time) but you think it’s unfair to not punish the P ?
What type of advantage do you think a pitcher has when a hitter takes his hand off the bat to call time? Would a pitcher not want to continue pitching in this situation? As stated the umpire does not have to call time, so I believe the pitcher should be punished in this situation. Also already stated, I understand how the rule is written
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
What type of advantage do you think a pitcher has when a hitter takes his hand off the bat to call time? Would a pitcher not want to continue pitching in this situation? As stated the umpire does not have to call time, so I believe the pitcher should be punished in this situation. Also already stated, I understand how the rule is written
More power to you...your point about the P would be valid IF the pitcher knew ahead of time the batter would do that. If I told a P, "hey, the batter is going to be unable to swing at this pitch, so just groove the pitch and get a free strike", then yes, your point is valid and he has an advantage.

The point is, the pitcher begins his motion, and as he starts to deliver, he sees and thinks the batter got time and flinches/stops, we aren't punishing him.

If the rule did what you believe should happen, then a ****show would happen with batters trying to take advantage of it.
 

Knight27

Member
More power to you...your point about the P would be valid IF the pitcher knew ahead of time the batter would do that. If I told a P, "hey, the batter is going to be unable to swing at this pitch, so just groove the pitch and get a free strike", then yes, your point is valid and he has an advantage.

The point is, the pitcher begins his motion, and as he starts to deliver, he sees and thinks the batter got time and flinches/stops, we aren't punishing him.

If the rule did what you believe should happen, then a ****show would happen with batters trying to take advantage of it.
I’m not sure what level of baseball you played(I would assume you are a coach) but I played minor league and D1 pitcher as well as a college asst coach and I was always taught to deliver the ball if you ever saw the batter take his hand off the bat. You hold the set position and as soon as the hand is removed you deliver. That’s a free strike. You have the order of events wrong in your head. The pitcher was not in his motion…the batters hand came off the bat first
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
I’m not sure what level of baseball you played(I would assume you are a coach) but I played minor league and D1 pitcher as well as a college asst coach and I was always taught to deliver the ball if you ever saw the batter take his hand off the bat. You hold the set position and as soon as the hand is removed you deliver. That’s a free strike. You have the order of events wrong in your head. The pitcher was not in his motion…the batters hand came off the bat first
I am not speaking about your play, I am speaking about the rule, and as such, am done with this conversation. You want to talk about how dumb a rule is, then have at it. As an umpire (and former D1 player), I only care about the rule. I am happy you were a minor league pitcher, you're talking about HS kids.

If they pitch, the pitch is called ball or strike. Great, I agree, they should try and get that free strike. The RULE is about what happens if they become confused by the fact the batter stepped out or is calling time. It is the same rule in NCAA Division 1, so guess it isn't that dumb of a rule after all.
 

Knight27

Member
I am not speaking about your play, I am speaking about the rule, and as such, am done with this conversation. You want to talk about how dumb a rule is, then have at it. As an umpire (and former D1 player), I only care about the rule. I am happy you were a minor league pitcher, you're talking about HS kids.

If they pitch, the pitch is called ball or strike. Great, I agree, they should try and get that free strike. The RULE is about what happens if they become confused by the fact the batter stepped out or is calling time. It is the same rule in NCAA Division 1, so guess it isn't that dumb of a rule after all.
I do understand the rule. Never said it was dumb. Just showing how it could be abused without the pitcher being punished.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
I do understand the rule. Never said it was dumb. Just showing how it could be abused without the pitcher being punished.
The question has been asked and answered (correctly) more than once.

The subject is now officially closed…... If you have problems with the rule, I suggest you contact the NFHS and complain to them.

In the meantime, it’s time to move on
 

umpire16

Active member
Video of incident for anyone who cares.

My question is, do forfeited games count towards suspensions served? Or does a game have to actually occur?
Ideally you should ask the OHSAA. Though covered in many sections of the rules book, the umpires actually have very little to say with the administrative follow up of a forfeit in this case. The most pressing rule reference in my mind is 4-4-2, A forfeited game is regulation, regardless of innings played.
 

CedarBuck92

Well-known member
Ideally you should ask the OHSAA. Though covered in many sections of the rules book, the umpires actually have very little to say with the administrative follow up of a forfeit in this case. The most pressing rule reference in my mind is 4-4-2, A forfeited game is regulation, regardless of innings played.
I'm only asking because in this case, pretty much the entire team was suspended for 2 games. If forfeits don't count towards suspensions, and the team does not have enough players to play, then its a black hole that can never be escaped.
 

CoachHoversten

Well-known member
I'm only asking because in this case, pretty much the entire team was suspended for 2 games. If forfeits don't count towards suspensions, and the team does not have enough players to play, then its a black hole that can never be escaped.
Forfeits do count; the suspensions are for 2 games, the forfeits are merely a product of the fact that they don’t have enough players to field a team.

Its 2 games off their schedule each suspended player lost the ability to participate in.

They count
 
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