Anyone else think that MLB should have ended already?

[wolves82]

Please define losing?? Baseball franchise values are going up and continue to go up. You are looking at losing in that you are no longer interested. I've pretty much seen full stadiums the last week watching playoff baseball. Do you know what TBS/ ESPN paid baseball for the rights to all these playoff games?? That's not losing. Sure, WE (and I include us) may not like it, but that's the way it's going to be, regardless of how we feel about it.

Declining attendance. Declining TV ratings. That is losing.

Over time, that will lead to smaller TV deals and lower franchise valuations. It won;t be overnight, but the trend is undeniable.

 

[14Red]

I'm admittedly in the minority, but I've actually drifted back to baseball in the past 3-4 years. I find as I get older, I enjoy the slower pace of the baseball games (again, I know I'm in the minority here) and I find the nonstop commercials of pro football on any given Sunday to be tiresome. Add to that the frequent stoppages of play to review calls in pro football (was he in bounds? was the QB's arm moving forward?) to be tiresome to the point that I no longer truly enjoy watching pro football as much as in the past.

I still watch college and high school football but don't enjoy the NFL as much and I wonder if I am in the minority. Given the NFL's place in pop culture I have to believe I am, but it's just how I feel these days. Maybe some of it is the Browns and their stupidity but it's something I've noticed the last few years.

Let's face it the allure of football has mainly been the explosion of fantasy football and gambling. I cringe when I see all these ads for betting sites and sports books, but the professional sports leagues have sold their soul do the devil (betting). At the end of the day, ticket sales are up and down for just about every franchise, TV deals has produced record numbers of revenue, but as we know, when you're dealing with salaries and athletes, there is a greed element that is just too strong for them to push away - and the unions help as well.
Think about it, if there was no betting lines for pro football and no fantasy football, how much REAL interest is there in the sport?

 

[14Red]

Declining attendance. Declining TV ratings. That is losing.

Over time, that will lead to smaller TV deals and lower franchise valuations. It won;t be overnight, but the trend is undeniable.

If that truly is the case, then yes, we'll see some changes. But until then, it's status quo. Heck, the Reds just announced they are putting in a betting sports book company right in the ballpark.

 

[14Red]

Yes I realize there are more playoff series now. .

Rather than recognize the people don't want playoff baseball in the middle of the season of the nation's real national pastime, football, and shorten the regular season, they just keep pushing the end of the season back. That was the point of the historical references of the end dates of seasons. I'm not 12 years old, I have lived through much of that history so I'm well aware of the fewer playoff series. Unfortunately, Rob Manfred and the geniuses in New York fail to realize that they're further damaging an already injured game.

You call it damaging, they call is revenue generating. Look, they'd put 20 teams in the playoffs and play until December if the climate was different in America. This has nothing to do with what you or other fans want. This is all about making more money for the teams/ owners and the league in general. These playoff games are goldmines for the teams. The playoff revenue is split among all teams so everyone wins.

 

[clarkgriswold]

You call it damaging, they call is revenue generating. Look, they'd put 20 teams in the playoffs and play until December if the climate was different in America. This has nothing to do with what you or other fans want. This is all about making more money for the teams/ owners and the league in general. These playoff games are goldmines for the teams. The playoff revenue is split among all teams so everyone wins.

View attachment 34711

I get that. What they don't get is that the fans are slowly losing interest and the interest wanes as the calendar moves into winter. In time, their playoffs and the World Series will be broadcast on the Lifetime Channel for men 60 and up at a discounted rate to MLB.

You stalwarts don't want to see it, but the game is struggling in the modern culture and extending the season for more revenue isn't going to save it in the long term. It's only going to result in games being played that much of the sports culture has little interest in.

 

[AEW Champion]

Even this morning on the morning shows, everyone is talking about Commanders/Bears, Ron Rivera’s blowup postgame, and the weekend slate of huge college football and NFL matchups. What’s not being discussed? Mariners/Astros.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

 

[14Red]

I get that. What they don't get is that the fans are slowly losing interest and the interest wanes as the calendar moves into winter. In time, their playoffs and the World Series will be broadcast on the Lifetime Channel for men 60 and up at a discounted rate to MLB.

You stalwarts don't want to see it, but the game is struggling in the modern culture and extending the season for more revenue isn't going to save it in the long term. It's only going to result in games being played that much of the sports culture has little interest in.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the way the game is being scheduled and played. But this is the reality of business and sports. The longer time goes, the more business becomes a part of it. I'd much rather go back to the NL with no DH, 7 inning starting pitchers, .300 being the bromoeter of a good hitter. I still feel that the RIGHT way to play baseball. But guys with high batting averages and low home runs don't get paid. Until that changes, this is what we get.

 

[wolves82]

If that truly is the case, then yes, we'll see some changes. But until then, it's status quo. Heck, the Reds just announced they are putting in a betting sports book company right in the ballpark.

If that is truly the case? Do you not pay attention to the sport you love?

Here is a link for regular season attendance from 2010-2019. Total MLB attendance in 2010 was 73M, a few ups and downs during the decade, but trending down to 69M in 2018 and 68M in 2019. Throw out 2020 and 2021 for the pandemic, but 2022 is 64M.

https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2010s-ballpark-attendance/

As for TV, which is the mouth the MLB really needs to feed, here is a link for the World Series ratings.
- Back in the 70's and 80's, the World Series would draw 35M-45M viewers, and about a 50 share of TV sets, because there were few cable channels. - By 2005 that number was down in the 17M-20M viewer range.
- 2019 drew 14M, but the last 2 years were 9.7M and 11.7M viewers.

World Series Television Ratings (1968-2023) | Baseball Almanac

World Series television ratings from 1968-2023, research by Baseball Almanac.

www.baseball-almanac.com

So yeah, problems in paradise. But you and Manfred don;t see it, apparently.

 

[14Red]

If that is truly the case? Do you not pay attention to the sport you love?

Here is a link for regular season attendance from 2010-2019. Total MLB attendance in 2010 was 73M, a few ups and downs during the decade, but trending down to 69M in 2018 and 68M in 2019. Throw out 2020 and 2021 for the pandemic, but 2022 is 64M.

https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2010s-ballpark-attendance/

As for TV, which is the mouth the MLB really needs to feed, here is a link for the World Series ratings.
- Back in the 70's and 80's, the World Series would draw 35M-45M viewers, and about a 50 share of TV sets, because there were few cable channels. - By 2005 that number was down in the 17M-20M viewer range.
- 2019 drew 14M, but the last 2 years were 9.7M and 11.7M viewers.

World Series Television Ratings (1968-2023) | Baseball Almanac

World Series television ratings from 1968-2023, research by Baseball Almanac.

www.baseball-almanac.com

So yeah, problems in paradise. But you and Manfred don;t see it, apparently.

What's the best rated TV shows....LIVE sports. And since the NFL doesn't go 12 months out of the year, you need live sports the other months. When will you realize that attendance doesn't matter anymore.

 

[wolves82]

What's the best rated TV shows....LIVE sports. And since the NFL doesn't go 12 months out of the year, you need live sports the other months. When will you realize that attendance doesn't matter anymore.

You are right, everything is fine with the MLB.

I mean, the World Series did get slightly higher TV ratings than the Stanley Cup finals. The World Series TV ratings were about 20% lower than the NBA Finals. And of course the World Series TV ratings are lower than NFL regular season games.

So for a sport whose goal is to hang on to 3rd place in popularity, it is doing fine.

 

[14Red]

You are right, everything is fine with the MLB.

I mean, the World Series did get slightly higher TV ratings than the Stanley Cup finals. The World Series TV ratings were about 20% lower than the NBA Finals. And of course the World Series TV ratings are lower than NFL regular season games.

So for a sport whose goal is to hang on to 3rd place in popularity, it is doing fine.

I think it's pretty well known the NFL dominates. I think of the top 20 shows in 2021, 18 where NFL games or something like that. But to my point....LIVE sports is the ticket for these networks.

 

[AEW Champion]

I think it's pretty well known the NFL dominates.

Despite the whole world knowing this, MLB puts its head in the sand and fails to schedule its most important games around football. There’s a full slate of MLB games today going head to head with the biggest college football Saturday of the season so far. Given there are so many good games, I will be choosing college football for my TVs and I’ll just check baseball scores on my phone.

Even more ludicrous, any series that extends beyond today will go head to head with the NFL tomorrow, namely Bills at Chiefs and Cowboys at Eagles. Fans will not be choosing baseball over those showdown NFL games.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

 

[AEW Champion]

Getting back to the original thread topic, MLB is dodging a weather bullet if both Yankees-Guardians games get played this weekend and the series goes back to New York.

If Cleveland were to have to host a playoff game early this week, the high temperatures Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday are 47, 45, and 47, with a decent chance of rain all three days. That’s brutal weather to play baseball in, much less to sit in the stadium to watch it. That’s another reason why the season should be done by now.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

 

[wolves82]

I think it's pretty well known the NFL dominates. I think of the top 20 shows in 2021, 18 where NFL games or something like that. But to my point....LIVE sports is the ticket for these networks.

And you see no problem with the fact that baseball has 25% of the viewers that it had 40 years ago? That it has 50% of the viewers that it had just 15 years ago? Do you not recognize that this is not good for baseball?

If MLB were a drama or comedy series it would be cancelled with this decline in viewers.

 

[AEW Champion]

And you see no problem with the fact that baseball has 25% of the viewers that it had 40 years ago? That it has 50% of the viewers that it had just 15 years ago? Do you not recognize that this is not good for baseball?

If MLB were a drama or comedy series it would be cancelled with this decline in viewers.

It’s a rough comparison, but MLB is kind of like WWE. It’s a legacy entertainment product that will always have brand value and isn’t going away, but it has bled fans for decades due to extreme mismanagement by out-of-touch leaders.

WWF was huge in the 80s Golden Era behind Hulk Hogan, Macho Man, Andre the Giant, etc. kind of like MLB had its huge teams like the 1988 Dodgers (Gibson HR) and the Bash Brothers A’s teams. Both companies took downturns in the mid-90s with WWF’s post-Hulkamania lull and 1994 McMahon steroid trial, while MLB had the 1994 strike that drove fans away.

Both companies came back in the late 90s. WWF pushed the hell out of Austin vs McMahon in 98 and 99, plus had a megastar in The Rock and a great supporting cast. MLB pushed the hell out of McGwire vs Sosa, had Bonds, Jeter, A-Rod, Clemens, etc.

Ever since those eras, it’s been downhill the past two decades. And some of the troubles are similar:

1. Out-of-touch, aging leaders (Bud Selig, Rob Manfred, Vince McMahon) who seem to actively dislike their fanbase. Fortunately, Vince is finally gone, with HHH taking over the reins this summer.

2. Failure to create or properly market new stars. Do you ever see MLB players do a ton of commercials? Are they appearing on other shows? Do a bunch of podcasts? It doesn’t really seem like it. The guys I see the most are retired guys like Jeter and A-Rod. Mike Trout isn’t marketed. Aaron Judge isn’t really marketed. Shohei Ohtani is limited because he doesn’t speak English well. Other stars of the past 15 years like Verlander, Kershaw, Miggy, etc. aren’t really ever seen in pop culture other than the Kate Upton connection for Verlander. WWE has a similar problem. There’s no one even close to Stone Cold or Rock levels of pop culture popularity. John Cena had success but he’s gone. Do you ever see Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins, Randy Orton or Drew McIntyre in pop culture? Not really. Those are their big guys now. I guess RKO Outta Nowhere was kind of a meme for awhile for Orton.

3. Games/shows too long. Monday Night Raw being 3 hours long has been a constant trouble spot for a decade, with fans saying the show is stretched out and boring. Similarly, MLB games generally take way too long and are accused of being boring.

4. Product out of mainstream conscience except for legacy events. MLB still gets attention for Home Run Derby, the All-Star Game and the World Series but otherwise basically has a niche audience. Similarly, WWE draws a lot of casuals for WrestleMania and maybe the Royal Rumble, but otherwise just has its dwindling niche fanbase.

5. Raw was drawing around 8 million viewers back around 2000 during the height of the Attitude Era. Ever since, it’s been a steady decline and the show draws around 2 million these days. The MLB TV decline has been documented already.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

 

[cjb5656]

It’s a rough comparison, but MLB is kind of like WWE. It’s a legacy entertainment product that will always have brand value and isn’t going away, but it has bled fans for decades due to extreme mismanagement by out-of-touch leaders.

WWF was huge in the 80s Golden Era behind Hulk Hogan, Macho Man, Andre the Giant, etc. kind of like MLB had its huge teams like the 1988 Dodgers (Gibson HR) and the Bash Brothers A’s teams. Both companies took downturns in the mid-90s with WWF’s post-Hulkamania lull and 1994 McMahon steroid trial, while MLB had the 1994 strike that drove fans away.

Both companies came back in the late 90s. WWF pushed the hell out of Austin vs McMahon in 98 and 99, plus had a megastar in The Rock and a great supporting cast. MLB pushed the hell out of McGwire vs Sosa, had Bonds, Jeter, A-Rod, Clemens, etc.

Ever since those eras, it’s been downhill the past two decades. And some of the troubles are similar:

1. Out-of-touch, aging leaders (Bud Selig, Rob Manfred, Vince McMahon) who seem to actively dislike their fanbase. Fortunately, Vince is finally gone, with HHH taking over the reins this summer.

2. Failure to create or properly market new stars. Do you ever see MLB players do a ton of commercials? Are they appearing on other shows? Do a bunch of podcasts? It doesn’t really seem like it. The guys I see the most are retired guys like Jeter and A-Rod. Mike Trout isn’t marketed. Aaron Judge isn’t really marketed. Shohei Ohtani is limited because he doesn’t speak English well. Other stars of the past 15 years like Verlander, Kershaw, Miggy, etc. aren’t really ever seen in pop culture other than the Kate Upton connection for Verlander. WWE has a similar problem. There’s no one even close to Stone Cold or Rock levels of pop culture popularity. John Cena had success but he’s gone. Do you ever see Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins, Randy Orton or Drew McIntyre in pop culture? Not really. Those are their big guys now. I guess RKO Outta Nowhere was kind of a meme for awhile for Orton.

3. Games/shows too long. Monday Night Raw being 3 hours long has been a constant trouble spot for a decade, with fans saying the show is stretched out and boring. Similarly, MLB games generally take way too long and are accused of being boring.

4. Product out of mainstream conscience except for legacy events. MLB still gets attention for Home Run Derby, the All-Star Game and the World Series but otherwise basically has a niche audience. Similarly, WWE draws a lot of casuals for WrestleMania and maybe the Royal Rumble, but otherwise just has its dwindling niche fanbase.

5. Raw was drawing around 8 million viewers back around 2000 during the height of the Attitude Era. Ever since, it’s been a steady decline and the show draws around 2 million these days. The MLB TV decline has been documented already.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

Pretty solid post.

 

[Crusaders]

WWF was arguably at its best in the mid-late 90s thanks to competition from WCW. Unfortunately there will not be any challengers to MLB to wake them from their delusions

 

[AEW Champion]

WWF was arguably at its best in the mid-late 90s thanks to competition from WCW. Unfortunately there will not be any challengers to MLB to wake them from their delusions

Everything in the entertainment space is a competitor: other sports, concerts, TV shows, movies, anything else people spend time and disposable income on. Whether they see that big picture is up for debate.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

 

[Crusaders]

Obviously but there's no direct competition in baseball to MLB which is a vastly different thing than passively competing against Taylor Swift and Marvel movies

 

[OldSoulon]

And you see no problem with the fact that baseball has 25% of the viewers that it had 40 years ago? That it has 50% of the viewers that it had just 15 years ago? Do you not recognize that this is not good for baseball?

If MLB were a drama or comedy series it would be cancelled with this decline in viewers.

And yet the owners are still raking in money even with those declining ratings. How often do you
see an MLB team be sold or change ownership? Usually when someone dies.

And I've said this here before: During the COVID year, nobody sat in the seats at pro sporting events, nobody bought a hot dog or a beer,
nobody paid to park or bought a souvenir.

And yet the owners all made huge amounts of cash. That says a lot.

 

[AEW Champion]

And yet the owners are still raking in money even with those declining ratings. How often do you
see an MLB team be sold or change ownership? Usually when someone dies.

And I've said this here before: During the COVID year, nobody sat in the seats at pro sporting events, nobody bought a hot dog or a beer,
nobody paid to park or bought a souvenir.

And yet the owners all made huge amounts of cash. That says a lot.

The Braves — the only team required to release financials publicly due to their ownership group — suffered an operating loss of $49 million in 2020. Story link is below. Baseball owners were not making a profit in 2020.

https://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-...iberty-media-says/QJ5UKP3BIJGIBLLU4SXXDGRM3I/

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

 

[OldSoulon]

The Braves — the only team required to release financials publicly due to their ownership group — suffered an operating loss of $49 million in 2020. Story link is below. Baseball owners were not making a profit in 2020.

https://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-...iberty-media-says/QJ5UKP3BIJGIBLLU4SXXDGRM3I/

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

How much did the owners make?

If they all lost money, why did they bother to play in front of empty seats?

Is it because they’re nice guys?

 

[AEW Champion]

How much did the owners make?

If they all lost money, why did they bother to play in front of empty seats?

Is it because they’re nice guys?

In team valuation? Who knows? Probably not much in 2020.

They probably played games to avoid even more legal wrangling from the MLBPA and to keep even more fans from abandoning the sport. Remember that they played the absolute least amount of games possible after significant bickering with the players.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

 

[OldSoulon]

In team valuation? Who knows? Probably not much in 2020.

They probably played games to avoid even more legal wrangling from the MLBPA and to keep even more fans from abandoning the sport. Remember that they played the absolute least amount of games possible after significant bickering with the players.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

They also opened a new stadium in 2017, which was a public/private venture.

A lot of that loss may include that.

 

[wolves82]

If they all lost money, why did they bother to play in front of empty seats?

Is it because they’re nice guys?

Because of these little things called contracts.

Players have contracts. TV networks have contracts. Needed to play to fulfill contracts and get some revenue from the TV deals.

 

[Irwin20]

Could not agree more.

The NBA is a joke. I can't believe the prices of lower bowl seats. For a season that will have probably a third of its games be non-competitive. Without entertainment deductions, I have to believe ticket prices would be cut in half. Too often, the product just isn't entertaining for anyone but teenaged boys that can actually appreciate ridiculous video-game style dominance.

I haven’t sat down and watched a complete NBA in 10 years, probably longer. I know I haven’t watched a minute in the last 5 years.

 

[14Red]

Despite the whole world knowing this, MLB puts its head in the sand and fails to schedule its most important games around football. There’s a full slate of MLB games today going head to head with the biggest college football Saturday of the season so far. Given there are so many good games, I will be choosing college football for my TVs and I’ll just check baseball scores on my phone.

Even more ludicrous, any series that extends beyond today will go head to head with the NFL tomorrow, namely Bills at Chiefs and Cowboys at Eagles. Fans will not be choosing baseball over those showdown NFL games.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …

True, and if baseball had full control of their scheduling they may do otherwise, but there are only so many hours to the day. Things we know:

• there will be no "shortening" of the schedule, at least not a significant way. I could see them eventually trim 8-10 games off to cover the additional playoff round, but you're never going to see a 120 -130 game season. That's just way too many home games for teams not to cash in on.
• the networks decide the schedule. TBS/ TNT/ FOX/ ESPN payed alot of money to broadcast the baseball playoffs. They are not going to put two games opposite of each other, or not play them on the weekends.

You say they put their heads in the sand? How? What else do you want them to do? They are not going to end the season at the end of July and have the baseball postseason in August, that's just never going to happen.

 

[14Red]

And you see no problem with the fact that baseball has 25% of the viewers that it had 40 years ago? That it has 50% of the viewers that it had just 15 years ago? Do you not recognize that this is not good for baseball?

If MLB were a drama or comedy series it would be cancelled with this decline in viewers.

Yes, that's a problem wolves, but here's two facts. Baseball franchises keep being worth more and more and player salaries keep going up. Pretty much everything else is irrelevant. You can pound the drum about the death of baseball, but financially, it's very strong.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

I haven’t sat down and watched a complete NBA in 10 years, probably longer. I know I haven’t watched a minute in the last 5 years.

One thing that CatA and I do seem to agree upon is that college basketball is far more entertaining, even if the most skilled players are in the NBA.

Non-competitive competition bores me. Subjective officiating and star calls alienate me. I'm good with seeing near Harlem Globetrotters-styled exhibitions once a decade.

While still jaded and socially toxic, playoff NBA is kind of different. The batch of young kids that the Cavs now have may interest me more often, especially having them on my streaming package.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

Yes, that's a problem wolves, but here's two facts. Baseball franchises keep being worth more and more and player salaries keep going up. Pretty much everything else is irrelevant. You can pound the drum about the death of baseball, but financially, it's very strong.

As long as the high dollar, nearly all-inclusive live TV packages dominate viewership, all pro sports leagues will be financially strong. There's a dance to be done as people go more a la carte in paying for TV. I think if we suddenly shifted to all a la carte, that would change markedly in pretty short order. TV contracts run a long time, but I'm not sure if they are staggered in interval from league to league or not.

As long as the bulk of TV channel buying decisions are essentially ceded to proxies for most of us, the financial dynamics will stay the same.