Another Weekend Of Youth Basketball.... Another Weekend Of Fights

CasualFan24 said:
It can be unacceptable and at the same time still be understood why it is happening.
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You "understanding why it's happening" gives a rationale to the criminal behavior.

No matter how poor the officiating is or was, people cannot act like these criminals did in this video. You have agreed to this..... Therefore, you cannot sit there with a straight face and say you understand why they got so upset.......

Again, by saying you "understand" gives them the rationale and the reason to act out. Nobody, for any reason should act out because the officiating is awful.


The officiating in and of itself is a whole separate matter. The people who you describe as walking up and down the floor are not officials, they are just people in striped shirts eager to pick up $150 each day for two or three days over a weekend. They could care two hoots about hustle, looks, integrity, and the game..... The people who hire them are complicit to the actions highlighted in these videos.
 
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There are some very good points people are giving. I have taught a referee's class for 20 years. I tell my students that you expected to do your best regardless of the amount of money you are being paid. There shouldn't be a $20 game and a $70 game as far as effort is concerned. But when it comes to these tournaments, you are asking an official to work as hard at 8:00PM as he worked at 8:00AM (most of the tournaments I have worked require you to work almost all day on Saturday and a good chunk of Sunday). That is very tough for most officials to do. Most of the people that referee these events are beginners or just looking for cash. I know teams pay a big amount to enter these tournaments but that money isn't going to officials. The big problem with these events are the organizers that make a lot of money for themselves. The amount of money made by the organizers is staggering.
 
You are totally correct. But the reality of too few officials and too many games and courts lead to the amount of games officials do. Officials shouldn't do 9 or 10 games a day but the reality is that they do.
 
Dragon72 said:
You are totally correct. But the reality of too few officials and too many games and courts lead to the amount of games officials do. Officials shouldn't do 9 or 10 games a day but the reality is that they do.
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Generally the ones who do, don't care. They just want the cash.
 
I would argue that “quality of officiating” is VERY much in the eyes of the beholder when it comes to this kind of basketball.

A lot of tournament directors would rather have officials who don’t blow their whistle or otherwise “rock the boat” and keep their games on schedule. They don’t like when they get good college or HS officials who handle business and call fouls the way they would in the regular season.

That is why you don’t see me working this type of basketball unless I’m attending a camp where I know I will be supported.
 
Dragon72 said:
You are totally correct. But the reality of too few officials and too many games and courts lead to the amount of games officials do. Officials shouldn't do 9 or 10 games a day but the reality is that they do.
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And those “game whores” who will sell their souls for $25 games are the exact reason why pay and treatment doesn’t get any better at these events.
 
AllSports12 said:
You "understanding why it's happening" gives a rationale to the criminal behavior.

No matter how poor the officiating is or was, people cannot act like these criminals did in this video. You have agreed to this..... Therefore, you cannot sit there with a straight face and say you understand why they got so upset.......

Again, by saying you "understand" gives them the rationale and the reason to act out. Nobody, for any reason should act out because the officiating is awful.


The officiating in and of itself is a whole separate matter. The people who you describe as walking up and down the floor are not officials, they are just people in striped shirts eager to pick up $150 each day for two or three days over a weekend. They could care two hoots about hustle, looks, integrity, and the game..... The people who hire them are complicit to the actions highlighted in these videos.
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Hearing what you are saying - and I can potentially see why the word "understand" would imply support for the behavior. That's not my message at all. I don't support the behavior - maybe a plain statement would be better. "These types of incidents are sometimes happening and escalating as a result of the officials actions toward the player/coaches/fans." See my example for explanation of how the situation escalated.

Admittedly, that doesn't sound great either....

My point in this whole thing is that if an official just acts professionally - these types of escalations can be avoided. For the life of me I cannot understand why an official engages or even gives the time of day to a fan. Ignore the noise, talk calmly to the coach, move on.
 
CasualFan24 said:
Hearing what you are saying - and I can potentially see why the word "understand" would imply support for the behavior. That's not my message at all. I don't support the behavior - maybe a plain statement would be better. "These types of incidents are sometimes happening and escalating as a result of the officials actions toward the player/coaches/fans." See my example for explanation of how the situation escalated.

Admittedly, that doesn't sound great either....

My point in this whole thing is that if an official just acts professionally - these types of escalations can be avoided. For the life of me I cannot understand why an official engages or even gives the time of day to a fan. Ignore the noise, talk calmly to the coach, move on.
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I understand your point. My only caveat would be that if tournament directors would do their jobs in curtailing the excessive “noise” coming from the benches and bleachers, there would be fewer instances of these game whore officials “biting back.” To often TDs are more concerned with keeping the “paying customers” happy. While I don’t work these types of games anymore, if for some reason I was – I’m not tolerating ridiculous behavior for $25 a game that I wouldn’t be expected to tolerate in a HS or NCAA game that is paying significantly more money (for significantly less BS).
 
Dragon72 said:
There are some very good points people are giving. I have taught a referee's class for 20 years. I tell my students that you expected to do your best regardless of the amount of money you are being paid. There shouldn't be a $20 game and a $70 game as far as effort is concerned. But when it comes to these tournaments, you are asking an official to work as hard at 8:00PM as he worked at 8:00AM (most of the tournaments I have worked require you to work almost all day on Saturday and a good chunk of Sunday). That is very tough for most officials to do. Most of the people that referee these events are beginners or just looking for cash. I know teams pay a big amount to enter these tournaments but that money isn't going to officials. The big problem with these events are the organizers that make a lot of money for themselves. The amount of money made by the organizers is staggering.
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Talked to a few officials that I know personally that officiate these events. The most games they get in a day during a regular tournament is 8, most of the time it's 4-5. The only time they get to 10 games in a day are for shootout events where there is a 20 minute running clock and no stoppage except for the sole timeout each team has, and no halftime. The pay is $25/game for regular tournament play, and $13/game for shootouts.

I don't know if the pay is ok or if it's awful. Frankly, no one held a gun to the officials head and told them they had to be on that floor. They volunteered, willingly, to be there knowing full well what the pay was when they signed up to get games.
AllSports12 said:
The officiating in and of itself is a whole separate matter. The people who you describe as walking up and down the floor are not officials, they are just people in striped shirts eager to pick up $150 each day for two or three days over a weekend. They could care two hoots about hustle, looks, integrity, and the game..... The people who hire them are complicit to the actions highlighted in these videos.
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BINGO! The organizations are money hungry folks who just want to get from Friday (sometimes Thursday) to Sunday evening as quickly as possible. They have no idea the qualification of the officials before hiring them, they just take warm bodies. It falls squarely on the tournament organization 1000%.
 
zebrastripes said:
I understand your point. My only caveat would be that if tournament directors would do their jobs in curtailing the excessive “noise” coming from the benches and bleachers, there would be fewer instances of these game whore officials “biting back.” To often TDs are more concerned with keeping the “paying customers” happy. While I don’t work these types of games anymore, if for some reason I was – I’m not tolerating ridiculous behavior for $25 a game that I wouldn’t be expected to tolerate in a HS or NCAA game that is paying significantly more money (for significantly less BS).
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Again falls on the tournament organization. The tournament I was at had 6 courts going at one time - Let's just hypothetically say each team has 10 kids - each kids brings 4 people (parents, siblings, grandparents) to spectate. That means there are nearly 500 people spread out across multiple gyms watching games being played at one particular moment. Then there's another 6 teams loitering around the facility having just played or getting ready to play, that's another 240 fans in addition to the players and coaches. So at any given time a single site director has to manage 750+ people. It's impossible. The tournament organization should have someone in each gym at all times at the very least. Or, probably even more simple than that, hire off duty officers to stand in the door ways like they do high school games (I know, what a crazy idea!)
 
zebrastripes said:
I would argue that “quality of officiating” is VERY much in the eyes of the beholder when it comes to this kind of basketball.

A lot of tournament directors would rather have officials who don’t blow their whistle or otherwise “rock the boat” and keep their games on schedule. They don’t like when they get good college or HS officials who handle business and call fouls the way they would in the regular season.

That is why you don’t see me working this type of basketball unless I’m attending a camp where I know I will be supported.
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Every call ever made is rated like this.

The point about tourneys is spot on. When we/they/it/whatever 'allowed' tournaments, AAU, travel ball, etc to become a business first, this problem started and got out of hand immediately.

I've noticed across most sports that officiating camp directors are generally wising up when coordinating with tournaments where officiating improvement is the mission. Not everyone, nor is it where it needs to be, but it is getting there. They are getting very selective on what they will want to work with for this same reason. I've instructed at an out of state umpire camp about 7 years now and we (or rather, the organizing group), have worked tirelessly to have umpires come in to a well-run tournament where they are supported. We disassociated with a large tournament 4 years ago for this very reason, and they are probably still shocked we did this.
 
Good discussion with valid points. I am hesitant to criticize my fellow officials because when I was younger, I probably did a lot more games then I should have. But in those days, everything was connected with OHSAA control - local shootouts with coaches that I knew and respected and I thought were into coaching for the right reason. I wouldn't be honest to say I didn't like the extra money. But these days with the tournaments being organized and controlled by people with only monetary reasons, the landscape has changed. I have worked a few USJN girls tournaments in the past (probably not any more) because I liked the people who were in charge and they were supportive to officials. The boys tournaments on the other hand have become unbearable. I still enjoy the local summer shootouts with high school teams and high school coaches and I enjoy spending time with my fellow officials. Unfortunately, I believe we haven't seen the worse from the March, April and May tournaments.
 
CasualFan24 said:
Again falls on the tournament organization. The tournament I was at had 6 courts going at one time - Let's just hypothetically say each team has 10 kids - each kids brings 4 people (parents, siblings, grandparents) to spectate. That means there are nearly 500 people spread out across multiple gyms watching games being played at one particular moment. Then there's another 6 teams loitering around the facility having just played or getting ready to play, that's another 240 fans in addition to the players and coaches. So at any given time a single site director has to manage 750+ people. It's impossible. The tournament organization should have someone in each gym at all times at the very least. Or, probably even more simple than that, hire off duty officers to stand in the door ways like they do high school games (I know, what a crazy idea!)
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My point exactly. If the tournament director doesn't have the ability to monitor the event by himself, it's 100% on him to pony up and hire the help he needs. This, of course, requires them to spend more money which they don't like to do.
 
30 stitches were needed to repair some of the damage done to the official by the people triggered over "poor officiating".

No official deserves this no matter how bad, lazy, incompetent or good he/she was.

There are avenues to correct poor officiating. They start with the teams telling the tournament director that they won't come back unless the level of officiating improves............

The level of officiating will improve once the tournament directors demand civility, raise the game fees, and back their officials...... if implemented, this will draw good officials back into the pool once again.

Until then...... even the marginal officials who would benefit greatly from working with top line officials will begin to leave...... all that's left then are the ones solely in it to pick up some untaxed cash.

It all can be accomplished without one punch being thrown.
 
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CasualFan24 said:
Again falls on the tournament organization. The tournament I was at had 6 courts going at one time - Let's just hypothetically say each team has 10 kids - each kids brings 4 people (parents, siblings, grandparents) to spectate. That means there are nearly 500 people spread out across multiple gyms watching games being played at one particular moment. Then there's another 6 teams loitering around the facility having just played or getting ready to play, that's another 240 fans in addition to the players and coaches. So at any given time a single site director has to manage 750+ people. It's impossible. The tournament organization should have someone in each gym at all times at the very least. Or, probably even more simple than that, hire off duty officers to stand in the door ways like they do high school games (I know, what a crazy idea!)
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Just taking a shot here. Maybe adults should behave. If they can't then they should leave. Either by their own enlightened choice, spousal suggestion, or event organizer mandate. But maybe more importantly because you don't want to embarrass your kid by being a complete "whatever term is allowed here". Knock it off adults for the sake of your children who you claim to support and love I hope. I've coached many years at a lot of levels and your kids really really don't like you when you act like this.
 
These parents pay an ungodly amount for their kids to play AAU basketball. They think this is their highway to get their kids a basketball scholarship. Basically this is nothing further from the truth. 10%, maybe , will get a scholarship. These outrageous acts are an extension of society. Family members, spend your money on tutoring so your family members can get academic scholarships. That’s a must better way for your family members to get great college money. And PS : The shortage of refs across the country is sadly declining because of the abuse they take in season and out of season.
 
Vet Observer said:
I'm observing a pattern of the perpetrators.
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I would love to know how many “incidents” like these there are in a weekend compared to the number of Games actually played in whatever sport or tournament. Many people think and talk like it’s become the norm but I don’t believe that. I think it’s actually a lot like supposed Police brutality. Some serious incidents do actually happen and then we start seeing/hearing them all over but if you look at the overall numbers it’s a small percentage for the amount of games played.
 
Smarty2022 said:
I would love to know how many “incidents” like these there are in a weekend compared to the number of Games actually played in whatever sport or tournament. Many people think and talk like it’s become the norm but I don’t believe that. I think it’s actually a lot like supposed Police brutality. Some serious incidents do actually happen and then we start seeing/hearing them all over but if you look at the overall numbers it’s a small percentage for the amount of games played.
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50,000 officials have quit since 2019. Actual physical abuse or the fear of physical abuse is the number one reason why.

Claiming there is a small amount of physical attacks compared to the total of games played is a silly comparison. Using that logic means that there is an acceptable amount of physical attacks.

I know you don't believe that.
 
AllSports12 said:
50,000 officials have quit since 2019. Actual physical abuse or the fear of physical abuse is the number one reason why.

Claiming there is a small amount of physical attacks compared to the total of games played is a silly comparison. Using that logic means that there is an acceptable amount of physical attacks.

I know you don't believe that.
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I never said any attack was acceptable. Please Don’t twist my words to fit your narrative! No Officials quit when the season was cancelled for Covid? Those officials found something better to do with their time and will never come back? There are many many reasons Officials quit. The Assignors and State folks want to put all the blame on Coaches and Parents behavior and I just don’t think it’s all their fault. Do they bear some blame yes but all of it, nah I’m not falling for that.
 
Good friend of mine was reffing in West Branch over weekend at basketball tourney. Guy came out of stands and tried to fight my friend. Too bad my friend could defend himself. Caught him twice and backed the guy up before help could arrive. Friend said he had nom interaction with coach, team, stands whole game. nothing was verbally said before hand, guy was just angry about calls during game.

Friend declined to press charges
 
Smarty2022 said:
I never said any attack was acceptable. Please Don’t twist my words to fit your narrative! No Officials quit when the season was cancelled for Covid? Those officials found something better to do with their time and will never come back? There are many many reasons Officials quit. The Assignors and State folks want to put all the blame on Coaches and Parents behavior and I just don’t think it’s all their fault. Do they bear some blame yes but all of it, nah I’m not falling for that.
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We were losing officials at an alarming rate long before Covid.

Look, this isn't "my narrative". All I'm doing is repeating the responses from officials.

When surveyed about why experienced officials are leaving in droves along with the fact that 8 of every 10 new officials do not return for their third year, the top three reasons are in order.....

Abuse from parents
Abuse/lack of sportsmanship from coaches and players
Substandard pay (thankfully Ohio leagues seem to be starting to make the move to rectify this)

Are there other reasons? Sure ! But, 5:00 games aren't the reason why we lose 80% of new officials before their 3rd year and they pale in regards to the overwhelmingly predominant reasons listed above.
 
djcoach said:
Good friend of mine was reffing in West Branch over weekend at basketball tourney. Guy came out of stands and tried to fight my friend. Too bad my friend could defend himself. Caught him twice and backed the guy up before help could arrive. Friend said he had nom interaction with coach, team, stands whole game. nothing was verbally said before hand, guy was just angry about calls during game.

Friend declined to press charges
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Your friend did the next set(s) of officials who work that team no favors.
 
The schools that these tournaments rent out for the weekend should require the tournament directors to pay for security. Whether that ends up being school security staff or local police departments. There are too many people at these venues for there to not be a security presence.
 
OH_sportsfan said:
The schools that these tournaments rent out for the weekend should require the tournament directors to pay for security. Whether that ends up being school security staff or local police departments. There are too many people at these venues for there to not be a security presence.
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Good thought, but there's no way it's going to happen. People complain now because of entry fees, paying officials, hotel rooms and food for the weekend. Like their going to fork over more money to pay for a rent-a-cop. Sadly, it's the adults in this whole process. Tournament director, coaches, officials and parents. Parents view this as a time where their boy can get "seen" and be on his way to a scholarship or pro ball. It's just a very messed up system and it's allowed to go on. I realize these are rare occurances and they get played up when they happen. But my point is they should happen maybe once every 10 years, not multiple times a year. I would not blame a tournament director if they didn't allow anyone other than players, coaches and officials in the building. If that means you bus the team, so be it. And let's face it, once you see these happen, you know who the troublemakers are. Just ban them from playing anymore. Not the kid, the parent/ coach.
 
The kid was obviously safe. I don't think it was close.... the ump got it right.

I hope that guy who struck the ump gets jail time and never is allowed to work with kids again.

I quit baseball as a youth because of the adults who were involved in it. They took all the fun out of the game. Don't swing until you get two strikes. The worse thing was the run rule. Game is over in the 4th inning because of run rule and yet there is still an hour until the next game starts. An empty baseball diamond when we could of continued to play. We did not care that much about the score we just wanted to play and they took that away from us.

We just got together without adults and started to play in parks. Much more fun and we were able to officiate our games without fighting. All kids, different ages and different playing abilities all with a common goal of just wanting to play the game without adult interference.
 
AllSports12 said:
We were losing officials at an alarming rate long before Covid.

Look, this isn't "my narrative". All I'm doing is repeating the responses from officials.

When surveyed about why experienced officials are leaving in droves along with the fact that 8 of every 10 new officials do not return for their third year, the top three reasons are in order.....

Abuse from parents
Abuse/lack of sportsmanship from coaches and players
Substandard pay (thankfully Ohio leagues seem to be starting to make the move to rectify this)

Are there other reasons? Sure ! But, 5:00 games aren't the reason why we lose 80% of new officials before their 3rd year and they pale in regards to the overwhelmingly predominant reasons listed above.
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Director of officiating for OHSAA Beau Ruggs literally just confirmed this - the state of Ohio has lost 3300 officials in the last 10 years. Doesn't sound like a lot over 10 years but it is. Especially when you consider the multiple sport officials that were included in that number....the number of games those 3300 officials were potentially covering is huge.....
 
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