A Simple Solution To The Competitive Balance Issue

South Range played a d-2 regional finalist team Green to a close game so they can play up and not be destroyed. Not saying they should be d-2 but maybe d-4
 
I'm merely talking about the ability to draw from multiple ZIP Codes, counties, or states.
Every school in the state has the same opportunity. If they choose not to take advantage of it, that's on them.

You might also note that those schools who supposedly don't have that ability generally outperform those who do. Maybe they're the ones who should be bumped up?
 
South Range played a d-2 regional finalist team Green to a close game so they can play up and not be destroyed. Not saying they should be d-2 but maybe d-4

Close, or not embarrassed? Green beat them 21-7 at their place in week 2. That doesn't tell us anything you're just being ridiculous at this point.
 
You last phrase says it all. "Anyone that thinks Hoban doesn't have a structural competitive advantage over other D2s like Nordonia or North Royalton is blind." Just like those who don't think Massillon and Toledo CC and Ursuline don't have a structural advantage over their divisions as well. " But those supporters go ballistic when you say they should bump up a division like crybabies. They like to punch down and bully lower programs and hate idea of playing someone with same advantages...Hint recruiters and cheaters.
I WOULD likely include Massillon, Toledo CC, and Ursuline in the group that has a structural competitive advantage because they can and do draw from a large area. Totally different model than a closed-enrollment community district. I don't think that's cheating, just a different landscape. Massillon isn't perpetually good/great just because of open enrollment. We see this in other sports, too. Many parents move to Brecksville so their daughters can be on the gymnastics team that's won 20 straight state titles. That's not cheating. Success breeds success.

Wealth is another structural advantage. Would Hudson be as good without the community's wealth? Perhaps, as there are also wealth districts that are routinely poor performers on the field like Chagrin Falls. So, it's clear some advantages don't get capitalized on. By contrast, 2nd tier Catholic schools like Holy Name and Padua that live in St. Ed's and St. Ignatius' shadow lack the perceived advantage, so it's not just a parochial thing 100%.

That all said, there are some pretty obvious structural advantages like TCC and Hoban (but not limited to Catholic schools) that should put them in a higher division than student population would indicate even with CB.
 
Every school in the state has the same opportunity. If they choose not to take advantage of it, that's on them.

You might also note that those schools who supposedly don't have that ability generally outperform those who do. Maybe they're the ones who should be bumped up?

Right. To add to that, Perry and Massillon both have state wide open enrollment. Which one would a football player want to transfer to and which would a wrestler? OE alone doesn't mean nearly as much as having a great program with great support. Many OE programs stink.
 
Close, or not embarrassed? Green beat them 21-7 at their place in week 2. That doesn't tell us anything you're just being ridiculous at this point.
I watched game and it was a 1 score game until late 4th quarter. Just saying that they can play higher division teams and not get crushed. Moving them up to d-4 or one division is not insane just like kirtland. Toledo and glenville could move to d-1 without a problem as well.
 
Hey all recruiting schools would love to keep beating up on non cheating schools. I admire your program but you have been linked to recruiting violations and on probation numerous times. You should be in d-1 period and everyone knows it. All the teams who are football factories should be in same 2 classes , simple as that. It will never happen so enjoy beating up on the creampuffs and enjoy your first real championship.
And how do you determine who is a “football factory?”
 
I WOULD likely include Massillon, Toledo CC, and Ursuline in the group that has a structural competitive advantage because they can and do draw from a large area.
80% of the public school districts in the state have open enrollment.

Wealth is another structural advantage.
Which is almost entirely the province of closed-enrollment districts, and closed-enrollment districts outperform open enrollment districts.

So, what do we have?
1. Open enrollment is not, in and of itself, a competitive advantage.
2. Closed enrollment is not, in and of itself, a competitive disadvantage.

So what are you left with? Subjective punishment of the disfavored. That's what it boils down to.
 
80% of the public school districts in the state have open enrollment.


Which is almost entirely the province of closed-enrollment districts, and closed-enrollment districts outperform open enrollment districts.

So, what do we have?
1. Open enrollment is not, in and of itself, a competitive advantage.
2. Closed enrollment is not, in and of itself, a competitive disadvantage.

So what are you left with? Subjective punishment of the disfavored. That's what it boils down to.
You dont have to hire private investigators to see which teams recruit. They get a million transfers and win every year in top divisions. Reason promotion and demotion plan gets cream of the crop playing each other for whatever reason they are good. Non-discriminatory. Cheaters or other reasons get to test their skills against similar teams with same advantatages instead of punching down and killing teams .
 
You dont have to hire private investigators to see which teams recruit. They get a million transfers and win every year in top divisions. Reason promotion and demotion plan gets cream of the crop playing each other for whatever reason they are good. Non-discriminatory. Cheaters or other reasons get to test their skills against similar teams with same advantatages instead of punching down and killing teams .
Since we don't have to hire anyone, you can answer:
- Which teams recruit? Name enough to fill one of your divisions.
- Who decides who is "good enough" to be moved up?
- What specific advantages do these schools with an unacceptable record of success have?
 
I watched game and it was a 1 score game until late 4th quarter. Just saying that they can play higher division teams and not get crushed. Moving them up to d-4 or one division is not insane just like kirtland. Toledo and glenville could move to d-1 without a problem as well.

So let's move all the best programs in Ohio up so they can compete for fewer titles, and all the mediocre programs can have a chance. I can envision a day when Geneva could beat Marion Local for the D3 State Championship how awesome.
 
So let's move all the best programs in Ohio up so they can compete for fewer titles, and all the mediocre programs can have a chance. I can envision a day when Geneva could beat Marion Local for the D3 State Championship how awesome.
Easy way to do it reduce divisions to 3 or 4 but the everyone deserves a title crowd would cry.
 
i respect your opinion Worm as a high school football guru. I have watched my entire life the same teams dominate the football state championships and it happens for two reasons. One is the old hard work ways like some of the small teams who win all the time like Kirtland and Marion and that awesome and should be admired. The other way is the recruiting way which is to raid nearby schools and become a superpower. I don't admire this way at all and it is a form of cheating. I really hated it when privates would be in smaller classes and destroy the publics who had zero chance to compete with the football factory. Mooney and Ursuline fall under this category. I think promotion and demotion is a better way than the current CB. If wont happen because cheaters love imbalance they get. Perkins would have won state this year if not for the Glenville scam going on. Glenville and Toledo CC and Massillon and Hoban should all be d-1. Since it will never happen, just enjoy seeing same 4 teams in each division play in the state games and attendance and interest in state football playoffs will continue to decline. I would be in favor of reducing the classifications to 4 and it would solve the problem and get better competition at the top.

Without name dropping, I promise you that several high schools across the Mahoning Valley have tried to recruit guys out of Warren Harding. Whether they're successful in that regard or not, nobody really cares because ultimately, those schools don't win. If anything, they can play the "innocent" role because they aren't successful on the field.

Meanwhile, here's an example of why many players come to Ursuline... In 2018, they played freshmen QB Brady Shannon, RB/DB Demarcus McElroy, WR Dean Boyd, and Jakylan Irving on a varsity squad that finished that season with a record of 1-9. When Reardon came back in 2019, the Irish finished 2-8. By the time those guys were seniors in 2021, they beat a loaded Glenville squad in the playoffs en route to finishing as the Division III state runner up. Coaching & development brought those guys up, so Reardon's "proof of concept," along with the strong tradition that he helped build there, "recruits" itself.

Mind you, Ursuline's first state title ever came in 2000, which was two years after the original Youngstown East closed. I was a freshman at Warren Harding in 1998-99 and that year, Anthony Abron transfered over after East closed in 1998 because, apparently, he didn't want to go to Ursuline, Mooney, Chaney, Rayen, or Wilson. Abron finished that year as a 1st Team All Ohio selection before ending up at Toledo. Nobody ever talks about him, but he's the guy that pretty much opened up the "pipeline" from Youngstown to Harding, but they aren't the only area school has benefitted from their talent. Hubbard, Howland, Fitch, Liberty, etc. have all had athletes from the Yo. Heck, current Charlotte Hornet Terry Rozier went to Shaker Heights and will tell you in a heartbeat that he's from Youngstown.

OTOH, Mooney has been winning state titles since 1973. Like Ursuline, they were competitive, but didn't make much noise in the 90's. By the mid 2000's, they got in on the action with state crowns in 2004, 2006, and 2009. Personally, their teams in 2006, 2007, and 2009 are three of the best that I've ever seen Harding play and 2005 wasn't exactly chopped liver either. Then again, you said that there's "publics who had zero chance to compete with the football factory," yet Coldwater knocked off Mooney in the 2005 & 2007 Division IV state title games. In the same year as the latter, Marion Local defeated Ursuline to win the Division V state crown. All of these years later, you see what Coldwater and (especially) Marion Local are still doing. The aspect of "community" and coaching builds their youth up to take on the world.

In 2014, Coach Nate Moore led Cincinatti La Salle, the former doormat of the GCL, to dominant wins over Colerain (40-21), Moeller (34-9), Elder (56-35), etc. en route to a 14-1 record and their first ever state title. In fact, Moore built their program up so tough, the Lancers won three more state titles after he left that offseason (2015, 2016, & 2019). In his first season at Massillon in 2015, the Tigers went 4-6. By 2017, they were in the Division II state semi and despite falling short to Winton Woods, they kept knocking at the door every year. They've strengthened their regular season schedule every year since he's got there and as we all know, exactly one week ago today, everything finally came full circle for Tigertown. That process didn't happen overnight and now that they've tasted the ultimate success, it will only get even better from here.

As a diehard Harding fan who grew up when I did, I understand the benefits that come with being brought up with a strong foundation. When "outsiders" see that, they want to be a part of it. I know several great players from other schools who wanted to play for Harding, but their parents wouldn't let them, so I'll bet anything that there's many athletes living by Massillon, Hoban, Eds, TCC, and Glenville thinking, "I wish that I was a part of that!"

Long post, but as I said earlier, when "community" meets superior coaching, that's when real success can happen and when it does, more & more families are going to want their kids to be a part of it.
 
when "community" meets superior coaching, that's when real success can happen and when it does, more & more families are going to want their kids to be a part of it.
This is 100% the secret sauce that you can point to almost any successful program and see that this makes sense - whether it's public or private, open enrollment or closed enrollment. And why the vast, vast majority of schools will never be successful regardless of attempts to make things "fair."
 
You dont have to hire private investigators to see which teams recruit. They get a million transfers and win every year in top divisions. Reason promotion and demotion plan gets cream of the crop playing each other for whatever reason they are good. Non-discriminatory. Cheaters or other reasons get to test their skills against similar teams with same advantatages instead of punching down and killing teams .
So if a team gets 20 transfers would they play in the same division as the team that gets 4 transfers. Also who is going to investigate every transfer all over Ohio to see if Mom or Dad got new jobs and moved in to the new area.
25 or more transfer = D1
20-24 = D2
15-19 =D3
Etc….. you have to see the absurdity
 
This is 100% the secret sauce that you can point to almost any successful program and see that this makes sense - whether it's public or private, open enrollment or closed enrollment. And why the vast, vast majority of schools will never be successful regardless of attempts to make things "fair."

Exactly! Being from Warren, I can tell the difference from when I was in school until now. The city still has talent, but everything is completely different now. Little things that most people wouldn't even think about. Great football is a reflection of the community! Not saying that everything has to be perfect, but fostering a strong, positive mentality from the ground up is everything. That's why you'll often see me hyping Massillon because I really respect the way that they've turned things around. Obviously, Coach Moore is a very important piece, but the mentality that their community breeds has brought them a long way.
 
That is what was insinuated by the posters who claim they could hang with Massillon, or Hoban or Ed's.
I don't think anybody actually insinuated that. That having been said, ML clearly is operating on a different level of playing field than 99% of the schools in Divisions 5-7.
 
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I don't think anybody actually insinuated that. That having been said, ML clearly is operating on a different level of playing field than 99% of the schools in Divisions 5-7.
But is that because they climbed higher or because something put them up there? That's the question. Because some on here would have you believe that the only way to get to the top is to run everyone else off the road.
 
Great idea. Just another addition to simplify a convoluted and tedious CB rule
Its to simplify the transfer rules. Let anyone play for any school they want without forcing people to move or at least act like they moved to be eligible for a full season. Just give them CB numbers based on the year they transferred. No need to appeal or investigate anything to have eligibility.
 
Without name dropping, I promise you that several high schools across the Mahoning Valley have tried to recruit guys out of Warren Harding. Whether they're successful in that regard or not, nobody really cares because ultimately, those schools don't win. If anything, they can play the "innocent" role because they aren't successful on the field.

Meanwhile, here's an example of why many players come to Ursuline... In 2018, they played freshmen QB Brady Shannon, RB/DB Demarcus McElroy, WR Dean Boyd, and Jakylan Irving on a varsity squad that finished that season with a record of 1-9. When Reardon came back in 2019, the Irish finished 2-8. By the time those guys were seniors in 2021, they beat a loaded Glenville squad in the playoffs en route to finishing as the Division III state runner up. Coaching & development brought those guys up, so Reardon's "proof of concept," along with the strong tradition that he helped build there, "recruits" itself.

Mind you, Ursuline's first state title ever came in 2000, which was two years after the original Youngstown East closed. I was a freshman at Warren Harding in 1998-99 and that year, Anthony Abron transfered over after East closed in 1998 because, apparently, he didn't want to go to Ursuline, Mooney, Chaney, Rayen, or Wilson. Abron finished that year as a 1st Team All Ohio selection before ending up at Toledo. Nobody ever talks about him, but he's the guy that pretty much opened up the "pipeline" from Youngstown to Harding, but they aren't the only area school has benefitted from their talent. Hubbard, Howland, Fitch, Liberty, etc. have all had athletes from the Yo. Heck, current Charlotte Hornet Terry Rozier went to Shaker Heights and will tell you in a heartbeat that he's from Youngstown.

OTOH, Mooney has been winning state titles since 1973. Like Ursuline, they were competitive, but didn't make much noise in the 90's. By the mid 2000's, they got in on the action with state crowns in 2004, 2006, and 2009. Personally, their teams in 2006, 2007, and 2009 are three of the best that I've ever seen Harding play and 2005 wasn't exactly chopped liver either. Then again, you said that there's "publics who had zero chance to compete with the football factory," yet Coldwater knocked off Mooney in the 2005 & 2007 Division IV state title games. In the same year as the latter, Marion Local defeated Ursuline to win the Division V state crown. All of these years later, you see what Coldwater and (especially) Marion Local are still doing. The aspect of "community" and coaching builds their youth up to take on the world.

In 2014, Coach Nate Moore led Cincinatti La Salle, the former doormat of the GCL, to dominant wins over Colerain (40-21), Moeller (34-9), Elder (56-35), etc. en route to a 14-1 record and their first ever state title. In fact, Moore built their program up so tough, the Lancers won three more state titles after he left that offseason (2015, 2016, & 2019). In his first season at Massillon in 2015, the Tigers went 4-6. By 2017, they were in the Division II state semi and despite falling short to Winton Woods, they kept knocking at the door every year. They've strengthened their regular season schedule every year since he's got there and as we all know, exactly one week ago today, everything finally came full circle for Tigertown. That process didn't happen overnight and now that they've tasted the ultimate success, it will only get even better from here.

As a diehard Harding fan who grew up when I did, I understand the benefits that come with being brought up with a strong foundation. When "outsiders" see that, they want to be a part of it. I know several great players from other schools who wanted to play for Harding, but their parents wouldn't let them, so I'll bet anything that there's many athletes living by Massillon, Hoban, Eds, TCC, and Glenville thinking, "I wish that I was a part of that!"

Long post, but as I said earlier, when "community" meets superior coaching, that's when real success can happen and when it does, more & more families are going to want their kids to be a part of it.
I went to UT freshman year before transferring to Akron. Anthony lived in the room next to me. Coolest dude you’d ever meet. Went by Rock tho not Anthony.
 
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Its to simplify the transfer rules. Let anyone play for any school they want without forcing people to move or at least act like they moved to be eligible for a full season. Just give them CB numbers based on the year they transferred. No need to appeal or investigate anything to have eligibility.
It sure would put to bed any confusion that CB currently has.
 
That's cause he liked wrestling. He used to call himself "The Rock." Hilarious, :ROFLMAO: .
That floor had him, Chester Taylor, Tavares Bolden, and Miquel Irvin on it….Who was friends with Maverick Carter and LeBron when he was just becoming big. The UT team had legit talent on it. Beat Penn State.
 
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