A Kirtland or Marion Local clearly have a competitive advantage before the kids take the field.
A Simple Solution To The Competitive Balance Issue
- Thread starter Snowbelt Man
- Start date
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Every school in the state has the same opportunity. If they choose not to take advantage of it, that's on them.
You might also note that those schools who supposedly don't have that ability generally outperform those who do. Maybe they're the ones who should be bumped up?
Close, or not embarrassed? Green beat them 21-7 at their place in week 2. That doesn't tell us anything you're just being ridiculous at this point.
raising4daughters
Well-known member
I WOULD likely include Massillon, Toledo CC, and Ursuline in the group that has a structural competitive advantage because they can and do draw from a large area. Totally different model than a closed-enrollment community district. I don't think that's cheating, just a different landscape. Massillon isn't perpetually good/great just because of open enrollment. We see this in other sports, too. Many parents move to Brecksville so their daughters can be on the gymnastics team that's won 20 straight state titles. That's not cheating. Success breeds success.
Wealth is another structural advantage. Would Hudson be as good without the community's wealth? Perhaps, as there are also wealth districts that are routinely poor performers on the field like Chagrin Falls. So, it's clear some advantages don't get capitalized on. By contrast, 2nd tier Catholic schools like Holy Name and Padua that live in St. Ed's and St. Ignatius' shadow lack the perceived advantage, so it's not just a parochial thing 100%.
That all said, there are some pretty obvious structural advantages like TCC and Hoban (but not limited to Catholic schools) that should put them in a higher division than student population would indicate even with CB.
Right. To add to that, Perry and Massillon both have state wide open enrollment. Which one would a football player want to transfer to and which would a wrestler? OE alone doesn't mean nearly as much as having a great program with great support. Many OE programs stink.
I watched game and it was a 1 score game until late 4th quarter. Just saying that they can play higher division teams and not get crushed. Moving them up to d-4 or one division is not insane just like kirtland. Toledo and glenville could move to d-1 without a problem as well.
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
And how do you determine who is a “football factory?”
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
What pre game competitive advantage do those two have.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
80% of the public school districts in the state have open enrollment.
Which is almost entirely the province of closed-enrollment districts, and closed-enrollment districts outperform open enrollment districts.
So, what do we have?
1. Open enrollment is not, in and of itself, a competitive advantage.
2. Closed enrollment is not, in and of itself, a competitive disadvantage.
So what are you left with? Subjective punishment of the disfavored. That's what it boils down to.
You dont have to hire private investigators to see which teams recruit. They get a million transfers and win every year in top divisions. Reason promotion and demotion plan gets cream of the crop playing each other for whatever reason they are good. Non-discriminatory. Cheaters or other reasons get to test their skills against similar teams with same advantatages instead of punching down and killing teams .
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Since we don't have to hire anyone, you can answer:
- Which teams recruit? Name enough to fill one of your divisions.
- Who decides who is "good enough" to be moved up?
- What specific advantages do these schools with an unacceptable record of success have?
So let's move all the best programs in Ohio up so they can compete for fewer titles, and all the mediocre programs can have a chance. I can envision a day when Geneva could beat Marion Local for the D3 State Championship how awesome.
Easy way to do it reduce divisions to 3 or 4 but the everyone deserves a title crowd would cry.
Without name dropping, I promise you that several high schools across the Mahoning Valley have tried to recruit guys out of Warren Harding. Whether they're successful in that regard or not, nobody really cares because ultimately, those schools don't win. If anything, they can play the "innocent" role because they aren't successful on the field.
Meanwhile, here's an example of why many players come to Ursuline... In 2018, they played freshmen QB Brady Shannon, RB/DB Demarcus McElroy, WR Dean Boyd, and Jakylan Irving on a varsity squad that finished that season with a record of 1-9. When Reardon came back in 2019, the Irish finished 2-8. By the time those guys were seniors in 2021, they beat a loaded Glenville squad in the playoffs en route to finishing as the Division III state runner up. Coaching & development brought those guys up, so Reardon's "proof of concept," along with the strong tradition that he helped build there, "recruits" itself.
Mind you, Ursuline's first state title ever came in 2000, which was two years after the original Youngstown East closed. I was a freshman at Warren Harding in 1998-99 and that year, Anthony Abron transfered over after East closed in 1998 because, apparently, he didn't want to go to Ursuline, Mooney, Chaney, Rayen, or Wilson. Abron finished that year as a 1st Team All Ohio selection before ending up at Toledo. Nobody ever talks about him, but he's the guy that pretty much opened up the "pipeline" from Youngstown to Harding, but they aren't the only area school has benefitted from their talent. Hubbard, Howland, Fitch, Liberty, etc. have all had athletes from the Yo. Heck, current Charlotte Hornet Terry Rozier went to Shaker Heights and will tell you in a heartbeat that he's from Youngstown.
OTOH, Mooney has been winning state titles since 1973. Like Ursuline, they were competitive, but didn't make much noise in the 90's. By the mid 2000's, they got in on the action with state crowns in 2004, 2006, and 2009. Personally, their teams in 2006, 2007, and 2009 are three of the best that I've ever seen Harding play and 2005 wasn't exactly chopped liver either. Then again, you said that there's "publics who had zero chance to compete with the football factory," yet Coldwater knocked off Mooney in the 2005 & 2007 Division IV state title games. In the same year as the latter, Marion Local defeated Ursuline to win the Division V state crown. All of these years later, you see what Coldwater and (especially) Marion Local are still doing. The aspect of "community" and coaching builds their youth up to take on the world.
In 2014, Coach Nate Moore led Cincinatti La Salle, the former doormat of the GCL, to dominant wins over Colerain (40-21), Moeller (34-9), Elder (56-35), etc. en route to a 14-1 record and their first ever state title. In fact, Moore built their program up so tough, the Lancers won three more state titles after he left that offseason (2015, 2016, & 2019). In his first season at Massillon in 2015, the Tigers went 4-6. By 2017, they were in the Division II state semi and despite falling short to Winton Woods, they kept knocking at the door every year. They've strengthened their regular season schedule every year since he's got there and as we all know, exactly one week ago today, everything finally came full circle for Tigertown. That process didn't happen overnight and now that they've tasted the ultimate success, it will only get even better from here.
As a diehard Harding fan who grew up when I did, I understand the benefits that come with being brought up with a strong foundation. When "outsiders" see that, they want to be a part of it. I know several great players from other schools who wanted to play for Harding, but their parents wouldn't let them, so I'll bet anything that there's many athletes living by Massillon, Hoban, Eds, TCC, and Glenville thinking, "I wish that I was a part of that!"
Long post, but as I said earlier, when "community" meets superior coaching, that's when real success can happen and when it does, more & more families are going to want their kids to be a part of it.
Great socio-economic demographics, high rates of participation that far outstrip any of their competition, high levels of community support/interest just to name a few.
This is 100% the secret sauce that you can point to almost any successful program and see that this makes sense - whether it's public or private, open enrollment or closed enrollment. And why the vast, vast majority of schools will never be successful regardless of attempts to make things "fair."
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
So if a team gets 20 transfers would they play in the same division as the team that gets 4 transfers. Also who is going to investigate every transfer all over Ohio to see if Mom or Dad got new jobs and moved in to the new area.
25 or more transfer = D1
20-24 = D2
15-19 =D3
Etc….. you have to see the absurdity
Exactly! Being from Warren, I can tell the difference from when I was in school until now. The city still has talent, but everything is completely different now. Little things that most people wouldn't even think about. Great football is a reflection of the community! Not saying that everything has to be perfect, but fostering a strong, positive mentality from the ground up is everything. That's why you'll often see me hyping Massillon because I really respect the way that they've turned things around. Obviously, Coach Moore is a very important piece, but the mentality that their community breeds has brought them a long way.
I don't think anybody actually insinuated that. That having been said, ML clearly is operating on a different level of playing field than 99% of the schools in Divisions 5-7.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
But is that because they climbed higher or because something put them up there? That's the question. Because some on here would have you believe that the only way to get to the top is to run everyone else off the road.
Yes?
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
Great idea. Just another addition to simplify a convoluted and tedious CB rule
Its to simplify the transfer rules. Let anyone play for any school they want without forcing people to move or at least act like they moved to be eligible for a full season. Just give them CB numbers based on the year they transferred. No need to appeal or investigate anything to have eligibility.
CrusaderZip0004
Well-known member
I went to UT freshman year before transferring to Akron. Anthony lived in the room next to me. Coolest dude you’d ever meet. Went by Rock tho not Anthony.
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Crimson and Black
Well-known member
It sure would put to bed any confusion that CB currently has.
That's cause he liked wrestling. He used to call himself "The Rock." Hilarious,
.CrusaderZip0004
Well-known member
That floor had him, Chester Taylor, Tavares Bolden, and Miquel Irvin on it….Who was friends with Maverick Carter and LeBron when he was just becoming big. The UT team had legit talent on it. Beat Penn State.That's cause he liked wrestling. He used to call himself "The Rock." Hilarious,