Tuscfan
Active member
Everyone supports a super team division as long as the enrollment cut off is just above their schools enrollment.
5th Division Coming ???
- Thread starter fleadog101
- Start date
It's hard to make the FBI most wanted. But there is a great area in between. At the small rural public school I attended, we had numerous semi serious or outright deadly situations. One of my friends shot and killed another kid we didn't know, found not guilty. A different acquaintance a year older than me shot and killed another one of our classmates over a girl in my grade. These are the kinds of things I hoped to avoid when raising my kids, so we enrolled them in a private school that to my knowledge has never had a student kill anyone. Not meant to be snobbery. Just a little removed from the shenanigans of kids killing kids.
And everyone has their own line for when recruiting begins and free movement ends.
That was a poor attempt at a joke. Of the kids I have seen take part in our example, I have not known any of them to be bad people after the experience. It just sounds like you live in a crappy town, and that is a different problem. I think we agree that private education can have benefits, but we may disagree that values are taught in the home not in a classroom or locker room. IMO
I feel recruiting is a thing that will never go away. Things were a little simpler when the rule was, change schools and sit a season. Kids are still getting the full benefit of the classroom.
Also, many private school kids that just aren't very good would see their careers end if they had to try and play at the public school. The majority of kids in SWOH small private schools are not recruited to the school for their athletic talent.
This is a simple solution Many states ( PA, MD, TN, LA, TX, VA, NY, NJ, NC, CT) just to name a few have had separate playoffs for years. The public and non public schools can play each other during the regular season, but compete in separate state tournaments. No matter how you slice it or dice it, private schools do have a competitive advantage in that they can get kids from anywhere they desire. Public schools can only have kids that live in their attendance zone. In Ohio, I think they should form and additional division, but only involve Division 1 schools. There is such a huge enrollment difference from the smallest to the largest Div 1 school (349 boys vs 1346 boys) Just split Div 1 and leave the remaining bottom 3 divisions as is. Also create a separate division or divisions for the private schools for the purposes of the playoffs The enrollment differential in the lower 3 divisions is much smaller (Div 2 191-349) , (Div 3 64-191), (Div 4 0-64) Just a thought
Using the football D1 as the definition of a "big" D1 for basketball, the last "small" D1 basketball champion was Columbus Northland in 2009, despite there only being 71 "big" D1 schools compared to 127 "small" D1 schools.
In the SW Region, 41 of the last 44 district champions have been "big" D1 schools.
I do think this needs addressed. Just adding a 5th division wouldn't adequately solve the problem unless the biggest division was constructed similarly to football. The fairest solution no matter how many division would be to quit worrying about having an equal number of schools per division and worry more about keeping schools with similar enrollments together. For example, if you have 275 in D4 but only 200 in D3, so be it.
In the SW Region, 41 of the last 44 district champions have been "big" D1 schools.
I do think this needs addressed. Just adding a 5th division wouldn't adequately solve the problem unless the biggest division was constructed similarly to football. The fairest solution no matter how many division would be to quit worrying about having an equal number of schools per division and worry more about keeping schools with similar enrollments together. For example, if you have 275 in D4 but only 200 in D3, so be it.
Many public schools offer open enrollment with no limits on where the students can live, thus giving them the same advantage that private schools enjoy.
Not sure if you are technically correct on this. I recall the year Marion defeated D4 juggernaut Cornerstone Christian they had kids from other states and even one or two from Canada.
Open enrollment is limited to Ohio residents correct?
Doverbuck1
Well-known member
Have rules been changed regarding transportation? When I attended high school anyone that went to a private school was provided transportation to and from the private school,or the parents were reimbursed for the cost. If you elect to open enroll you are on your own,result is a big advantage for the private schools.
basketballdayton
Active member
Not ture with how educational offerings have changed.
Open enrollments have the advantage over private schools, as they are free. Transfer rules have changed a lot to. In the end open enrollment which a lot of schools are these days have the advantage. The sterotype of private schools just has not changed yet.
winbypin
Well-known member
About 70% of public schools in Ohio have statewide open enrollment.
The D1 schools with 1000+ enrollment is always mentioned in these arguments but there are not many and I feel those numbers benefit football more than basketball. Basketball games can be won by 1 or 2 players and there is no proof that having the largest enrollment makes you the best. When you look at the CB enrollment number, most of the teams in D1 are between 349 and 710. There are only 8 schools with an enrollment over 1000.
As stated above...
Using the football D1 as the definition of a "big" D1 for basketball, the last "small" D1 basketball champion was Columbus Northland in 2009, despite there only being 71 "big" D1 schools compared to 127 "small" D1 schools.
In the SW Region, 41 of the last 44 district champions have been "big" D1 schools.
There absolutely is data showing that enrollment matters in basketball.
Hard to use the football break down since there are 7 divisions. All 4 basketball divisions have schools with actual enrollments that are much larger.
Looking at past state champs in D1.
Mentor won in 2013-enrollment 884 CB=884
St Ed won in 2014-enrollment 684 CB=812
HH Wayne won in 2015-enrollment 691 CB=698
Westerville S. won in 2016-enrollment 605 CB=605
Mass. Jackson won in 2017-enrollment 707 CB=708
Moeller won in 2018-enrollemnt 667 CB=703
Moeller won in 2019-enrollemnt 667 CB=703
Covid won 2020
Centerville won in 2021-enrollement 1065 CB=1035
Pick Cent won in 2022-enrollement 784 CB 785
So my point was, from what I see, in the last 10 years only one school with an enrollment of 1000+ has won the state basketball D1 title.
cincyhoops
Well-known member
Yes but there are also schools with less than 400 boys in D1
There are schools in D2 with less then 180 competing against over 345
There are schools in D3 with less then 70 competing against over 190
There are schools in D4 with less then 20 competing against over 115
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
this is remarkably dumb.
By your logic, the JPSN scholarship is a negative to a school because some kid can get a free education on the basis of being special needs.
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
But 400 against 1100 is a much more incredible spread in my opinion. Someone know what the average enrollment is for each division?
Just looking at the past 10 years it looks like 700 or more is the number to be at in D1. That's about double what the bottom D1 schools have enrolled. Congrats to Westerville South for bucking the system and winning with just 600!
I believe the law of diminishing returns has to come into play with these larger schools. I’d rather have 400 and compete against a school with 1,000 than have 40 going against schools with 100.
You have obviously never been around the athletics of a small private school. The total athletic department can be a big financial burden.
Again the complaint against not being able to compete against the 1000+ schools are bogus when schools of 600 are winning state titles.
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Wanna bet?
Well then you know that most private schools do not carry athletics in a financially positive setting. Some definitely do exceed budgets needs but most do not.
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Most small privates aren’t putting their operational income (tuition) into athletics to begin with. Mine doesn’t. So, “financially positive” is neither here nor there — and it’s also irrelevant to whether or not athletics are a positive to a school (hint: they are.)
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
I think there is a point of diminishing returns on total enrollment. At the uber large schools the sports programs become so congested with talent that a lot of times, not always through intentional fault of the coaches, which kids the coaches already know get huge head starts over ones they don't. So, many kids that may be talented, stop coming out after junior high or transfer to smaller schools where they can at least get an opportunity.
Back to the diminishing returns argument, based on just looking at state championships and how overall competitive the +1000 enrollment schools tend to be every year, I'd say that number is around 700-800. I think once you get past that, you will always be able to be competitive, but the simple numbers advantage goes away. I still believe a school of 700-800 has a distinct advantage over a school of 300-400 on a yearly basis. That's my gut talking with just a general look into it all. Of course, basketball is a lot different than football. A single player or two on any team can turn an average team to a state contender immediately.