#16 seeds the last five years (DV-DVII)

MassillonK1D330

Active member
That's why I said "extremely interesting". Never said Coldwater would win.

Edit: I do stand by my opinion that Coldwater would have the best player on the field for that theoretical '05 matchup though with Ross Homan.
Bro no Brian Gamble from Massillon went Illinois and actually helped them upset Ohio st in 07 would have been the best player on the field by far lol
 

Insane92

Well-known member
Bro no Brian Gamble from Massillon went Illinois and actually helped them upset Ohio st in 07 would have been the best player on the field by far lol
Disagree. Ross Homan was ranked higher (check 247 sports if you don't believe me) and had a better college career than Gamble, bro.
 
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Msfootball

Active member
I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that Marion Local's two best teams, 2007 and 2014, could have potentially beaten Massillon those two years. The tigers had 4 losses those years, so admittedly we aren't talking about the better Massillon teams. 2007 Massillon beat Ursuline 14-3. As I recall, Ursuline didn't have their RB Mason playing against Massillon. MSML defense shut down Ursuline's running game. Only scoring the Irish did was a fumble return for a td and a long passing play.
2014 Massillon lost to Ursuline, who lost to Canton Central, who got smashed by Coldwater who got shutout by Marion Local. I actually am confident MSML beats Massillon in 2014. 2007 would be a toss-up. Keep in mind these are MSML's two best teams ever against Massillon teams with 4 losses.
 

BirdDog10

Well-known member
I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that Marion Local's two best teams, 2007 and 2014, could have potentially beaten Massillon those two years. The tigers had 4 losses those years, so admittedly we aren't talking about the better Massillon teams. 2007 Massillon beat Ursuline 14-3. As I recall, Ursuline didn't have their RB Mason playing against Massillon. MSML defense shut down Ursuline's running game. Only scoring the Irish did was a fumble return for a td and a long passing play.
2014 Massillon lost to Ursuline, who lost to Canton Central, who got smashed by Coldwater who got shutout by Marion Local. I actually am confident MSML beats Massillon in 2014. 2007 would be a toss-up. Keep in mind these are MSML's two best teams ever against Massillon teams with 4 losses.
I can get on board with that. The 2014 Marion Local team was the best high school football team I’ve ever seen. If I remember right, the only time they were scored on in the post season was on a long TD pass against Grove, and they shut out both the D5 and D6 state champs.
 

Msfootball

Active member
I can get on board with that. The 2014 Marion Local team was the best high school football team I’ve ever seen. If I remember right, the only time they were scored on in the post season was on a long TD pass against Grove, and they shut out both the D5 and D6 state champs.
They didn't shutout the D6 champs but did beat them by 4 TD's. Minster had a pretty good passing attack as Kirtland found out.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
They didn't shutout the D6 champs but did beat them by 4 TD's. Minster had a pretty good passing attack as Kirtland found out.
2014 The Steiners beat the Buzzards 20-0.

You are thinking of 2013 when they beat CW 47-14....with I want to say th Flyers 3rd string QB....he was at least the backup. CW pressed the run thinking the Flyers backup couldnt beat them with his arm....and they did!


Dont forget....Coldwater beat Bishop Hartley three times in two seasons of 2013 and 2014.
2014 Hartley beat a 10 win D4 team, an 11 win D4 team, a 10 in D3 team
 

big medicine

Active member
They didn't shutout the D6 champs but did beat them by 4 TD's. Minster had a pretty good passing attack as Kirtland found out.
As to that Minster/Kirtland game, Sitting in the stands it was becoming pretty evident that Kirtland had that game in hand as they were expanding their lead as time was getting short on the clock. Minster recovering that onside kick late in the fourth guarter kept their hopes alive. When Minster busted a long run off a short pass on like their first play I looked at the clock and thought they had left too much time for Kirtland. To my amazement Kirtland did not appear to have any form of hurry up, or clock management type offence in their playbook, they went right back to their power run game and Minster was able to ride it out for the win. I believe Kirtland has rounded out their offence some since then.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
As to that Minster/Kirtland game, Sitting in the stands it was becoming pretty evident that Kirtland had that game in hand as they were expanding their lead as time was getting short on the clock. Minster recovering that onside kick late in the fourth guarter kept their hopes alive. When Minster busted a long run off a short pass on like their first play I looked at the clock and thought they had left too much time for Kirtland. To my amazement Kirtland did not appear to have any form of hurry up, or clock management type offence in their playbook, they went right back to their power run game and Minster was able to ride it out for the win. I believe Kirtland has rounded out their offence some since then.
I was just telling someone this last night.........


The top programs and teams win games against teams they probably should not have won, but somehow pulled it out.
 

LELL

Well-known member
I was just telling someone this last night.........


The top programs and teams win games against teams they probably should not have won, but somehow pulled it out.
Yup. I love when a lower division team beats a higher division team, especially if that gap is big.
 

serpico

Well-known member
2014 The Steiners beat the Buzzards 20-0.

You are thinking of 2013 when they beat CW 47-14....with I want to say th Flyers 3rd string QB....he was at least the backup. CW pressed the run thinking the Flyers backup couldnt beat them with his arm....and they did!


Dont forget....Coldwater beat Bishop Hartley three times in two seasons of 2013 and 2014.
2014 Hartley beat a 10 win D4 team, an 11 win D4 team, a 10 in D3 team
You’re thinking of Coldwater as the D6 champs that year. Minster is who he is talking about.
 

ToledoGuy

Active member
Just do what we did last year...go down to 8-9 regular season games, everyone in the playoffs like in every other sport in Ohio, with byes developed based on seed selection, and allow dynamic scheduling after you've been knocked out if you'd like to play an additional game. Honestly the best playoff structure I've been a part of in 9 years on the sidelines and just about every coach I've spoken with has agreed. No 1-16 games...give the first 4 seeds byes and have more competitive first round games overall. Gives a chance to make a mark for every team, rewards the teams that earned that reward, and the kids get to play another game (which is the best part of this...I can't tell you how excited the players were for our playoff game, even though it was a 8/12 game in our region and we knew we were going to get dusted in Round 2).
 

BirdDog10

Well-known member
Just do what we did last year...go down to 8-9 regular season games, everyone in the playoffs like in every other sport in Ohio, with byes developed based on seed selection, and allow dynamic scheduling after you've been knocked out if you'd like to play an additional game. Honestly the best playoff structure I've been a part of in 9 years on the sidelines and just about every coach I've spoken with has agreed. No 1-16 games...give the first 4 seeds byes and have more competitive first round games overall. Gives a chance to make a mark for every team, rewards the teams that earned that reward, and the kids get to play another game (which is the best part of this...I can't tell you how excited the players were for our playoff game, even though it was a 8/12 game in our region and we knew we were going to get dusted in Round 2).
No. We don’t need to get rid of any regular season games and ask any coach that made it to the regional finals or further, the post season was way too long.
 

ToledoGuy

Active member
No. We don’t need to get rid of any regular season games and ask any coach that made it to the regional finals or further, the post season was way too long.
We didn't mind it...sure we didn't get that far this past year (made it to the Regional Semis), but having been in the Regional Finals recently, it felt no "longer" than any other post season.

Plus, I'd argue making a true state tournament would allow for better OOC matchups because teams don't have to worry about convoluted computer points where playing a 4-6 D1 team nets you more points than a 9-1 D4 team. Instantly brings some fun games back into the fold that otherwise wouldn't happen while also allowing for teams to be able to work towards something in the end. I guess I just don't think there are any rational arguments against going to a full playoff or expansion like what they've done outside of the dumbass "aww shucks, everyone getting a trophy now?!" comments when literally the same amount of teams will get trophies.

And if your argument is, "but the blowouts!?" then why the hell aren't you complaining about literally every other sport's playoff setup? The fact of the matter is that 12 is probably the sweet spot here, with the 1st four seeds getting buys...but that won't happen because the coaches already complained about byes being disadvantageous (even though some of us would argue vehemently to the contrary).
 
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BirdDog10

Well-known member
We didn't mind it...sure we didn't get that far this past year (made it to the Regional Semis), but having been in the Regional Finals recently, it felt no "longer" than any other post season.

Plus, I'd argue making a true state tournament would allow for better OOC matchups because teams don't have to worry about convoluted computer points where playing a 4-6 D1 team nets you more points than a 9-1 D4 team. Instantly brings some fun games back into the fold that otherwise wouldn't happen while also allowing for teams to be able to work towards something in the end. I guess I just don't think there are any rational arguments against going to a full playoff or expansion like what they've done outside of the dumbass "aww shucks, everyone getting a trophy now?!" comments when literally the same amount of teams will get trophies.

And if your argument is, "but the blowouts!?" then why the hell aren't you complaining about literally every other sport's playoff setup? The fact of the matter is that 12 is probably the sweet spot here, with the 1st four seeds getting buys...but that won't happen because the coaches already complained about byes being disadvantageous (even though some of us would argue vehemently to the contrary).
12 is the sweet spot, I was in favor of that and thought they should let it go for a few years before re-evaluating. It would have solved almost every problem that people had with the previous playoff system. (For the record every coach I heard from that had a bye talked about how it helped them reset before the playoffs and heal up, so I don't know where the idea is coming from that coaches were against the bye for 1-4 seeds)

We're now playing 6 postseason games to win the state championship, which is 60% of the regular season. That is insane. In basketball where everyone makes it, you have 8 post season games compared to 20+ regular season games. There's lots of issues with that.

The longer you go into a post season, the tougher each game gets which means more kids naturally get banged up. This wears on schools in a normal season, and everyone I know that's close to a program seemed in agreement that it was even worse last year. Plus when you're in the playoffs, your schedule and routines change, making it harder to focus on JV and freshmen practice and games. This might not be an issue with the bigger Toledo schools but at small schools with coaching staffs already stretched thin, you're pretty much guaranteeing that the JV kids will either A) not compete for the second half of the season or B) get a last minute game thrown together with the few teams that want to keep playing after they're knocked out of the playoffs. Either way it's bad for developing kids to play varsity in the future. Our school's JV team last year already played 2 different teams twice because of low numbers in other programs, and went through the last 5 weeks of the season without a single chance to compete because all of the area schools stopped playing when they were knocked out.

You also mentioned how letting everyone in would make for better OOC games. How could that be even possible if you're reducing the regular season?? Many teams in the state only have 1-2 OOC games to begin with, and shortening the regular season would reduce that. Lots of those schools already have an out of conference rivalry that they will continue with, so where is the room for better games?

Having 16 teams in is already a bad idea, letting everyone in is even worse. Football is a unique sport. It's not basketball or baseball where you can easily play 2 games each week without worrying about injuries, or wrestling where a competitor can have 5 matches in a day. The more you expand the playoffs, the more you hurt the regular season, and you will only see the talent gap between traditionally good and bad schools grow more rapidly.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
We didn't mind it...sure we didn't get that far this past year (made it to the Regional Semis), but having been in the Regional Finals recently, it felt no "longer" than any other post season.

Plus, I'd argue making a true state tournament would allow for better OOC matchups because teams don't have to worry about convoluted computer points where playing a 4-6 D1 team nets you more points than a 9-1 D4 team. Instantly brings some fun games back into the fold that otherwise wouldn't happen while also allowing for teams to be able to work towards something in the end. I guess I just don't think there are any rational arguments against going to a full playoff or expansion like what they've done outside of the dumbass "aww shucks, everyone getting a trophy now?!" comments when literally the same amount of teams will get trophies.

And if your argument is, "but the blowouts!?" then why the hell aren't you complaining about literally every other sport's playoff setup? The fact of the matter is that 12 is probably the sweet spot here, with the 1st four seeds getting buys...but that won't happen because the coaches already complained about byes being disadvantageous (even though some of us would argue vehemently to the contrary).
Dude.
Last year was 6 games and then the playoffs so yeah.........it would not have seemed so long.
Some teams CONCEIVABLY could have played more playoff games last year than regular season.
As it stood, we played the same amount of playoff games as regular season.


Under the previous system the finals teams played 50% added onto their season. Play 8-9 games, let everyone in, and that goes up.


I think the 12 team system was a perfect give and take. In that system, there may have been a few teams who played 6 postseason games, but I would suspect most of finals teams still would have been at the 5
 

BirdDog10

Well-known member
I think the 12 team system was a perfect give and take. In that system, there may have been a few teams who played 6 postseason games, but I would suspect most of finals teams still would have been at the 5
6 postseason games for a very small handful of teams with a 10 game regular season is a heck of a lot better than 7 games for most schools with an 8 game regular season.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
6 postseason games for a very small handful of teams with a 10 game regular season is a heck of a lot better than 7 games for most schools with an 8 game regular season.
Absolutely.

The state really screwed the pooch on this all for the love of $$$. 12 was fine because enough 7+ win teams were missing.
Simpling looking at the numbers I took a gander at and this top 16 is allowing way too many below .500 teams into the playoffs.
 
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