who OWNS gas using vehicle, a electric vehicle, or a Hybrid vehicle

[WJ-OSU-STEELERS]

By who ProV1? I do not see cost going down with all that will be need to up grade just so we can use EVs. Right at this time taking a road trip vacation with one brings nothing but disappointing results. I have yet to hear one report that say great trip with out a hitch.

In the future will EV’s…
* Get more miles to the charge?
* Charge time decrease?
* Have more public charging stations available?
* Cost to manufacture a EV vehicle decrease?

Cell phones use to be far more balkier, cell service was far worse, cost I’m not sure about.

Fiat screen TV’s use to be heavier, cost was far more expensive, picture was not as clear as today.

My gut tells me the answer to each of the EV questions above will be YES. We shall see.

 

[Gamma Gobbler]

In the future will EV’s…
* Get more miles to the charge?
* Charge time decrease?
* Have more public charging stations available?
* Cost to manufacture a EV vehicle decrease?

Cell phones use to be far more balkier, cell service was far worse, cost I’m not sure about.

Fiat screen TV’s use to be heavier, cost was far more expensive, picture was not as clear as today.

My gut tells me the answer to each of the EV questions above will be YES. We shall see.

I will agree to a yes for your questions but as with everything it is technology dependent. Right now, it seems we are putting the cart before the horse and with all advancements, that can retard development. Example, Li-Ion batteries have been around since the early 90s, yet there were issues in cells phones catching fire to the point airlines still will not allow them in checked baggage.

 

[WJ-OSU-STEELERS]

I will agree to a yes for your questions but as with everything it is technology dependent. Right now, it seems we are putting the cart before the horse and with all advancements, that can retard development. Example, Li-Ion batteries have been around since the early 90s, yet there were issues in cells phones catching fire to the point airlines still will not allow them in checked baggage.

Progress is littered with failure and in some cases stupidity.
* How many failed launches & astronauts who have lost their lives yet NASA moved forward
* When does medical advancement typically take place? During & right after a war
* In the 1950’s football coaches wouldn’t let players take water breaks and some even made them take salt tablets - how stupid was that?
* how many people before the Wright Brothers attempted & failed to achieve flight?

EV’s are happening regardless if the 60 and over crowd likes it or not. EV’s are currently not for me but in 5 years I would guess I will know 4 or 5 people who work at the Honda EV plant in Washington Ch and I 100% support it - it’s good jobs for Ohioans

 

[Gamma Gobbler]

Progress is littered with failure and in some cases stupidity.
* How many failed launches & astronauts who have lost their lives yet NASA moved forward
* When does medical advancement typically take place? During & right after a war
* In the 1950’s football coaches wouldn’t let players take water breaks and some even made them take salt tablets - how stupid was that?
* how many people before the Wright Brothers attempted & failed to achieve flight?

EV’s are happening regardless if the 60 and over crow likes it or not. EV’s are currently not for me but in 5 years I would guess I will know 4 or 5 people who work at the Honda EV plant in Washington Ch and I 100% support it - it’s good jobs for Ohioans

I agree with you and I love the jobs. Just remember the opposite of progress is congress.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

Fairy dust and unicorns?

incense and peppermints ?

 

[lotr10]

In the future will EV’s…

Good, fair questions:

* Get more miles to the charge?

Seems to me that battery innovation has dried up. They've hit a wall and at best are seeing small incremental improvements. In many ways battery's remind me of how steam power looked to people in the late 19th century: cool tech in theory hit a practical wall that prevented it from fulfilling its promise. So no I don't think you will see a huge improvement in miles per charge.

* Charge time decrease?

Again, if I'm right and battery technology has nearly peaked out you won't be seeing a big improvement in the time it takes to charge. Small, incremental improvements - sure. But coming anywhere close to matching how quickly I can gas up - no.

* Have more public charging stations available?

If we fully transition to EV's they will need an enormous increase in charging stations. We're talking about a massive investment way beyond what was needed to build cell phone towers.

* Cost to manufacture a EV vehicle decrease?

If thy sell more EV's the cost to build them will go down. But not by a lot. And the key cost here will likely be the battery and those costs are going to go up as the minerals needed to manufacture them become scarce and go up in price. Bottom line is that while overall costs will come down a bit EV's will never have a cost advantage over gas powered cars at the point of purchase. Unless government intervenes and drives the gas powered cars price up through the roof.

Cell phones use to be far more balkier, cell service was far worse, cost I’m not sure about.

The path forward for technological advancement was pretty straightforward. Miniaturization in the computer & chip industry was happening on a broad front. Cell service benefited from the leap in satellite launching technology and how easy & cheap it was to build cell towers. Add in the fact that cell phones were a clear improvement over the performance of land line phones and it's easy to see how they were so successful.

Fiat screen TV’s use to be heavier, cost was far more expensive, picture was not as clear as today.

As with cell phones, big screen TV's benefited from broad tech advances supporting key elements of their manufacture and performance. And in contrast to EV's there was no major infrastructure investment needed to adopt big screen TV's and their performance advantages over little screen TV's was obvious.

My gut tells me the answer to each of the EV questions above will be YES. We shall see.

Yes, we shall see.

 

[lotr10]

This discussion has got me thinking about EV's and why so many people are hell bent on switching the automobile fleet from gas powered (GP) to electric. Sure there are some advantages for EV's compared to GP vehicles but there are also some significant disadvantages. The bottom line is that at best EV's represent a modest product improvement over GP's.

And the challenges of practically switching to EV's borders on the insurmountable. At a minimum it will require massive capacity improvements in our electrical grid and in providing national charging station coverage. You would only do this if there was a crisis forcing you to make this change. And 20 years ago that crisis was PEAK OIL. We were going to run out of oil so we had to switch.

Then something funny happened - while battery innovation and technology development stalled out the oil & natural gas industry saw stunning improvements in extracting fossil fuels. The end result was a drop in the price of oil/NG and most importantly the elimination of PEAK OIL as a future crisis.

We innovated our way out of the peak oil crisis but not in the way they wanted. Of course technology breakthroughs and development are unpredictable. So instead of huge improvements in battery performance allowing a seamless switch from GP to EV's it was in oil drilling where we made the breakthroughs to solve the problem.

With the peak oil crisis gone there was no good reason to switch to EV's. They needed a new crisis. One that represented an existential threat to humanity. And that's how the Global Warming crisis came to be. They took an obscure, scientifically poorly supported theory and ran with it.

Today, the ONLY thing that justifies absorbing the disruption, costs and effort of switching from EV to GP vehicles if the Global Warming threat is real. So what do people think - is it real?

 

[WJ-OSU-STEELERS]

Good, fair questions:

Seems to me that battery innovation has dried up. They've hit a wall and at best are seeing small incremental improvements. In many ways battery's remind me of how steam power looked to people in the late 19th century: cool tech in theory hit a practical wall that prevented it from fulfilling its promise. So no I don't think you will see a huge improvement in miles per charge.

Again, if I'm right and battery technology has nearly peaked out you won't be seeing a big improvement in the time it takes to charge. Small, incremental improvements - sure. But coming anywhere close to matching how quickly I can gas up - no.

If we fully transition to EV's they will need an enormous increase in charging stations. We're talking about a massive investment way beyond what was needed to build cell phone tos.

If thy sell more EV's the cost to build them will go down. But not by a lot. And the key cost here will likely be the battery and those costs are going to go up as the minerals needed to manufacture them become scarce and go up in price. Bottom line is that while overall costs will come down a bit EV's will never have a cost advantage over gas powered cars at the point of purchase. Unless government intervenes and drives the gas powered cars price up through the roof.

The path forward for technological advancement was pretty straightforward. Miniaturization in the computer & chip industry was happening on a broad front. Cell service benefited from the leap in satellite launching technology and how easy & cheap it was to build cell towers. Add in the fact that cell phones were a clear improvement over the performance of land line phones and it's easy to see how they were so successful.

As with cell phones, big screen TV's benefited from broad tech advances supporting key elements of their manufacture and performance. And in contrast to EV's there was no major infrastructure investment needed to adopt big screen TV's and their performance advantages over little screen TV's was obvious.

Yes, we shall see.

There are over 280 million vehicles in the US and what, maybe 10 million are EV’s?

* Your worries/concerns about “if we fully convert to EV’s….”, it’s not going to happen overnight and may never completely happen. Do we need charging stations in Stanley, Idaho asap - no.

* To say the EV/battery technology has plateaued - I disagree. Gas powered vehicles…I would guess our MPG isn’t too much better now than 20 years ago. Yes, vehicles are bigger (everyone w/ kids seems to have a SUV). Hybrid vehicles were the latest big jump in technology for gas powered vehicles, I just don’t know too many people who have one.

EV’s are coming but like most change, it will take a generation or so to convert.

 

[ProV1]

By who ProV1? I do not see cost going down with all that will be need to up grade just so we can use EVs. Right at this time taking a road trip vacation with one brings nothing but disappointing results. I have yet to hear one report that say great trip with out a hitch.

Most cars do not take road trip vacations. If you want to do that, buy a hybrid. Of course costs will come down. Duh.

“Analysts anticipate the good times will continue. Goldman Sachs predicts that the cost of producing batteries will decline 11% each year on average through 2030; that could put EVs on equal cost footing with gas-powered vehicles by 2029. That's a win for the average car owner.”

 

[ProV1]

This discussion has got me thinking about EV's and why so many people are hell bent on switching the automobile fleet from gas powered (GP) to electric. Sure there are some advantages for EV's compared to GP vehicles but there are also some significant disadvantages. The bottom line is that at best EV's represent a modest product improvement over GP's.

And the challenges of practically switching to EV's borders on the insurmountable. At a minimum it will require massive capacity improvements in our electrical grid and in providing national charging station coverage. You would only do this if there was a crisis forcing you to make this change. And 20 years ago that crisis was PEAK OIL. We were going to run out of oil so we had to switch.

Then something funny happened - while battery innovation and technology development stalled out the oil & natural gas industry saw stunning improvements in extracting fossil fuels. The end result was a drop in the price of oil/NG and most importantly the elimination of PEAK OIL as a future crisis.

We innovated our way out of the peak oil crisis but not in the way they wanted. Of course technology breakthroughs and development are unpredictable. So instead of huge improvements in battery performance allowing a seamless switch from GP to EV's it was in oil drilling where we made the breakthroughs to solve the problem.

With the peak oil crisis gone there was no good reason to switch to EV's. They needed a new crisis. One that represented an existential threat to humanity. And that's how the Global Warming crisis came to be. They took an obscure, scientifically poorly supported theory and ran with it.

Today, the ONLY thing that justifies absorbing the disruption, costs and effort of switching from EV to GP vehicles if the Global Warming threat is real. So what do people think - is it real?

What disruption are you talking about? Is it any more disruptive to build charging infrastructure vs cellular infrastructure?

 

[ProV1]

I will agree to a yes for your questions but as with everything it is technology dependent. Right now, it seems we are putting the cart before the horse and with all advancements, that can retard development. Example, Li-Ion batteries have been around since the early 90s, yet there were issues in cells phones catching fire to the point airlines still will not allow them in checked baggage.

Sure and those issues were worked out. Progress is impossible without some failure.

 

[nutsnbolts]

What disruption are you talking about? Is it any more disruptive to build charging infrastructure vs cellular infrastructure?

Yea, all that charging infrastructure charges thousands of vehicles while you’re driving. Lol. You have surpassed yourself in stupidity. You’ll be able to keep the stupid crown for a long time.

 

[ProV1]

Yea, all that charging infrastructure charges thousands of vehicles while you’re driving. Lol. You have surpassed yourself in stupidity. You’ll be able to keep the stupid crown for a long time.

Obviously you are too stupid to understand the question?

 

[nutsnbolts]

Obviously you are too stupid to understand the question?

A tower recently went in to our area. There was basically zero disruption from installation of the tower or its service. On a dead end country road with on residence. Ther is zero disruption from service. No traffic or long term parking for use. Name one charging station that can claim that. You are such a worthless waste of oxygen.

 

[bigkat]

In the future will EV’s…
* Get more miles to the charge?
* Charge time decrease?
* Have more public charging stations available?
* Cost to manufacture a EV vehicle decrease?

Cell phones use to be far more balkier, cell service was far worse, cost I’m not sure about.

Fiat screen TV’s use to be heavier, cost was far more expensive, picture was not as clear as today.

My gut tells me the answer to each of the EV questions above will be YES. We shall see.

but as of now, they have tried to put the CART before the horse....

 

[bigkat]

This discussion has got me thinking about EV's and why so many people are hell bent on switching the automobile fleet from gas powered (GP) to electric. Sure there are some advantages for EV's compared to GP vehicles but there are also some significant disadvantages. The bottom line is that at best EV's represent a modest product improvement over GP's.

And the challenges of practically switching to EV's borders on the insurmountable. At a minimum it will require massive capacity improvements in our electrical grid and in providing national charging station coverage. You would only do this if there was a crisis forcing you to make this change. And 20 years ago that crisis was PEAK OIL. We were going to run out of oil so we had to switch.

Then something funny happened - while battery innovation and technology development stalled out the oil & natural gas industry saw stunning improvements in extracting fossil fuels. The end result was a drop in the price of oil/NG and most importantly the elimination of PEAK OIL as a future crisis.

We innovated our way out of the peak oil crisis but not in the way they wanted. Of course technology breakthroughs and development are unpredictable. So instead of huge improvements in battery performance allowing a seamless switch from GP to EV's it was in oil drilling where we made the breakthroughs to solve the problem.

With the peak oil crisis gone there was no good reason to switch to EV's. They needed a new crisis. One that represented an existential threat to humanity. And that's how the Global Warming crisis came to be. They took an obscure, scientifically poorly supported theory and ran with it.

Today, the ONLY thing that justifies absorbing the disruption, costs and effort of switching from EV to GP vehicles if the Global Warming threat is real. So what do people think - is it real?

BINGO!!!

 

[bigkat]

There are over 280 million vehicles in the US and what, maybe 10 million are EV’s?

* Your worries/concerns about “if we fully convert to EV’s….”, it’s not going to happen overnight and may never completely happen. Do we need charging stations in Stanley, Idaho asap - no.

* To say the EV/battery technology has plateaued - I disagree. Gas powered vehicles…I would guess our MPG isn’t too much better now than 20 years ago. Yes, vehicles are bigger (everyone w/ kids seems to have a SUV). Hybrid vehicles were the latest big jump in technology for gas powered vehicles, I just don’t know too many people who have one.

EV’s are coming but like most change, it will take a generation or so to convert.

so when do we need charging stations in Idaho? when and HOW will these charging stations become available while driving down I-75 from one end to the other?

 

[cabezadecaballo]

Good, fair questions:

Seems to me that battery innovation has dried up. They've hit a wall and at best are seeing small incremental improvements. In many ways battery's remind me of how steam power looked to people in the late 19th century: cool tech in theory hit a practical wall that prevented it from fulfilling its promise. So no I don't think you will see a huge improvement in miles per charge.

Again, if I'm right and battery technology has nearly peaked out you won't be seeing a big improvement in the time it takes to charge. Small, incremental improvements - sure. But coming anywhere close to matching how quickly I can gas up - no.

If we fully transition to EV's they will need an enormous increase in charging stations. We're talking about a massive investment way beyond what was needed to build cell phone towers.

If thy sell more EV's the cost to build them will go down. But not by a lot. And the key cost here will likely be the battery and those costs are going to go up as the minerals needed to manufacture them become scarce and go up in price. Bottom line is that while overall costs will come down a bit EV's will never have a cost advantage over gas powered cars at the point of purchase. Unless government intervenes and drives the gas powered cars price up through the roof.

The path forward for technological advancement was pretty straightforward. Miniaturization in the computer & chip industry was happening on a broad front. Cell service benefited from the leap in satellite launching technology and how easy & cheap it was to build cell towers. Add in the fact that cell phones were a clear improvement over the performance of land line phones and it's easy to see how they were so successful.

As with cell phones, big screen TV's benefited from broad tech advances supporting key elements of their manufacture and performance. And in contrast to EV's there was no major infrastructure investment needed to adopt big screen TV's and their performance advantages over little screen TV's was obvious.

Yes, we shall see.

Great post.

Maybe battery tech has topped out, and range won’t significantly improve now without advances in superconductivity or onboard generation ? I still say the used car market for EV has got to be trash. Who wants to buy a used EV and old battery when it’s the most expensive element of the purchase ? Whoever controls the replacement battery market is going to control the EV resale market, probably.

As I understand it, as AI use increases the power demands will become incredible. Like, mining bitcoin type of yu-u-uge constant power demand. Mass EV adoption is not going to happen without nuclear power.

Do you know why don’t we have thorium reactor generation ? It is supposedly three times more plentiful than uranium, and meltdown proof as well. The half-life of spent fuel is supposedly very brief. Is it too inefficient ?

 

[bigkat]

There are over 280 million vehicles in the US and what, maybe 10 million are EV’s?

* Your worries/concerns about “if we fully convert to EV’s….”, it’s not going to happen overnight and may never completely happen. Do we need charging stations in Stanley, Idaho asap - no.

* To say the EV/battery technology has plateaued - I disagree. Gas powered vehicles…I would guess our MPG isn’t too much better now than 20 years ago. Yes, vehicles are bigger (everyone w/ kids seems to have a SUV). Hybrid vehicles were the latest big jump in technology for gas powered vehicles, I just don’t know too many people who have one.

EV’s are coming but like most change, it will take a generation or so to convert.

looked up on fueleconomy.gov

a honda accord got average of 23 miles pergallon in 2000--- 20 MPG city 28 mpg Highway

a honda accord is getting around 32 miles per gallon in 2023--- 29 mpg city 37 mpg Highway

 

[lotr10]

There are over 280 million vehicles in the US and what, maybe 10 million are EV’s?

* Your worries/concerns about “if we fully convert to EV’s….”, it’s not going to happen overnight and may never completely happen. Do we need charging stations in Stanley, Idaho asap - no.

* To say the EV/battery technology has plateaued - I disagree. Gas powered vehicles…I would guess our MPG isn’t too much better now than 20 years ago. Yes, vehicles are bigger (everyone w/ kids seems to have a SUV). Hybrid vehicles were the latest big jump in technology for gas powered vehicles, I just don’t know too many people who have one.

EV’s are coming but like most change, it will take a generation or so to convert.

I'm fine with letting the market decide. IMO they will continue to make incremental improvements in EV performance and buying them will be like the decision to buy a convertible or expensive high performance car.

The problem is that there are forces at work which want to artificially create an EV demand and use the powers of government to destroy the EV's main competition which are gas powered vehicles. Have you seen the target dates of some of their pro EV mandates? So yes if they get their way we will be converting the majority of our automobile fleet to EV's and then crash the nations electric grid.

Battery performance may be at or near it's limit. It's something that must be considered in the push to witch from gas powered vehicles to EV's.

 

[lotr10]

What disruption are you talking about? Is it any more disruptive to build charging infrastructure vs cellular infrastructure?

To start with you will need to build a lot more charging stations then we had to build cell towers. Or does your future pixie dust & unicorn farts EV technology allow non contact, "wireless" charging as you drive around.

Second, along with the massive increase in the number of charging stations you will need an equally massive increase in the capacity of America's electrical grid to move electricity around the country.

Third, you will have to decide what will be the source of the extra electricity to be used in this bigger & better electric grid infrastructure. Are they going to let us use coal, oil or natural gas? Will they be okay with damning more rivers for Hydro? What about the snail darter fish? Oh yea, we'll build a whole bunch of new nuclear reactors. They love those! Wait, we'll just use alternate energy production. Do you happen to know how many more windmills and solar farms they will need to build to meet the higher demand?

 

[BlackHawk]

I'm waiting on hydrogen powered automobiles.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

looked up on fueleconomy.gov

a honda accord got average of 23 miles pergallon in 2000--- 20 MPG city 28 mpg Highway

a honda accord is getting around 32 miles per gallon in 2023--- 29 mpg city 37 mpg Highway

That's good enough, now leave us alone, right?! wtf?!

The EPA just keeps pushing because these people don't want to have to get a different, real job. Like third generation racial activists.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

I'm waiting on hydrogen powered automobiles.

Who in their right mind would invest in technology that costs more to operate than does that which it seeks to replace ? Only a moron, or a player in a rigged game that knows what's coming, would do that.

 

[WJ-OSU-STEELERS]

so when do we need charging stations in Idaho? when and HOW will these charging stations become available while driving down I-75 from one end to the other?

Do you read? I said we do not need charging stations in Stanley, Idaho. Along the interstates will be where the charging stations begin to pop up.

 

[WJ-OSU-STEELERS]

looked up on fueleconomy.gov

a honda accord got average of 23 miles pergallon in 2000--- 20 MPG city 28 mpg Highway

a honda accord is getting around 32 miles per gallon in 2023--- 29 mpg city 37 mpg Highway

And when I pick up my kids at school I don’t see too many Honda Accords but I see a caravan is SUV’s.

 

[gneiss rocks]

I'm fine with letting the market decide. IMO they will continue to make incremental improvements in EV performance and buying them will be like the decision to buy a convertible or expensive high performance car.

The problem is that there are forces at work which want to artificially create an EV demand and use the powers of government to destroy the EV's main competition which are gas powered vehicles. Have you seen the target dates of some of their pro EV mandates? So yes if they get their way we will be converting the majority of our automobile fleet to EV's and then crash the nations electric grid.

Battery performance may be at or near it's limit. It's something that must be considered in the push to witch from gas powered vehicles to EV's.

Yes to your post, but you are missing the big picture

It is not about performance, energy, markets or the environment, it is only about control...But you likely know this.

 

[bigkat]

And when I pick up my kids at school I don’t see too many Honda Accords but I see a caravan is SUV’s.

you said there hasn't been much better MPG made in the last 20 years didn't you?


by the way, i think there are a WHOLE bunch of honda accords sold in America now adays, don't you think???

 

[bigkat]

Do you read? I said we do not need charging stations in Stanley, Idaho. Along the interstates will be where the charging stations begin to pop up.

so how will people in idaho be able to get a EV? how about Wisky, or Minnesota or the Dakotas ?

 

[bigkat]

And when I pick up my kids at school I don’t see too many Honda Accords but I see a caravan is SUV’s.

I've had accords for a long time, two of them went over 225,000 miles.... the other one i just had , sold it and it had 175,000 miles... nothing went wrong with all three of them... how long do batteries last in these EV's? how much does a battery last? how much does it cost to replace a battery? what are the disposal costs for the batteries? how do they dispose of them?