The Official 2021 Cincinnati Reds Thread

wolves82

Well-known member
Full on rebuild again? See they are trying big time to unload Sonny
Saw that story too. Puzzling part is that it also says the Reds are actively talking to FA pitchers and in the mix for Lindor/Story. Sonny is making $20M/year. Maybe the Reds are tired of losing 2-1 and instead will spend for offense and try to win 8-7?
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
Saw that story too. Puzzling part is that it also says the Reds are actively talking to FA pitchers and in the mix for Lindor/Story. Sonny is making $20M/year. Maybe the Reds are tired of losing 2-1 and instead will spend for offense and try to win 8-7?
Sony does not make 20M/yr.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
Sonny is a valuable trade piece. Offering him certainly helps to identify what the market is for other trade targets the Reds may be interested in.
 

zeeman

Well-known member
True. I believe he is slotted to make ~$10M next year and tops out close to $12M, so a relative bargain and an attractive trade option to catch a potential need.
You mean the Dead’s don’t “need” starting pitching? I would think losing 3 out of five starters would not be very good, but that’s just me 🤷🏿
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Tampa showed there are other ways to get through a game vs dominant starting pitching. 🤷🏼‍♂️
True, in that they always used quick hooks on their stud starters, and relied on the bullpen. Studs like Glasnow, Snell and Morton averaged only 5-6 innings per starts with pretty good numbers. But they did have those dominant guys starting games, they weren't throwing sub-par guys out there.

Losing Bauer, Disco to FA, and trading Gray would be a mistake IMO. If we could roll with Castillo, Gray, Mahle, Lorenzen, Miley I'd feel pretty good about the top of the rotation. Feel much less good minus Gray. He is a bargain at $10M.
 

eastside_purple

Well-known member
True, in that they always used quick hooks on their stud starters, and relied on the bullpen. Studs like Glasnow, Snell and Morton averaged only 5-6 innings per starts with pretty good numbers. But they did have those dominant guys starting games, they weren't throwing sub-par guys out there.

Losing Bauer, Disco to FA, and trading Gray would be a mistake IMO. If we could roll with Castillo, Gray, Mahle, Lorenzen, Miley I'd feel pretty good about the top of the rotation. Feel much less good minus Gray. He is a bargain at $10M.
I mean from an era perspective, all those Ray pitchers are solid, but not dominant. I’d like to have Gray, but they have to listen to offers as it really all depends on what they can get.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Watch the Angels convert Raisel to a starter. I asked for the Reds to do it repeatedly. He's a 4 pitch guy, with great stuff. Just not sure about his mental makeup.

Anyway, dumping his salary and trying to trade Gray? Concerned about the direction this is heading. But with proven veterans like Votto, Moose, Castellanos, Suarez, Castillo, Barnhart, Garrett, etc. seems unlikely a full rebuild is in the cards. Hopeful a offensive SS is the next move.
 
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14Red

Well-known member
The Reds direction is very clear, they need to drop payroll, they are trying to see what Sonny Gray COULD get them. They are not going to dump him. If they get an offer they can't refuse, then you do it. Otherwise he's in the rotation. He's attractive due to the current structure of his contract.

The Reds are banking on pitching coach Derek Johnson being able to take mid range to unknown pitchers and turn them into quality pitchers. For 2022, you'll likely have Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo in the rotation.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Watch the Angels convert Raisel to a starter. I asked for the Reds to do it repeatedly. He's a 4 pitch guy, with great stuff. Just not sure about his mental makeup.

Anyway, dumping his salary and trying to trade Gray? Concerned about the direction this is heading. But with proven veterans like Votto, Moose, Castellanos, Suarez, Castillo, Barnhart, Garrett, etc. seems unlikely a full rebuild is in the cards. Hopeful a offensive SS is the next move.
The Reds tried to make Lorenzen and Iglesias starters and both could not pitch more than 3-4 innings in multiple starts without getting hurt. Some guys simply cannot be starting pitchers. Chapman was the same way. So do you keep them as a often injured, #4, #5 starter, or put them in the bullpen and try to squeeze as much out of them as possible? I think Igleisas career with the Reds, given the fact he was here for some lean seasons was pretty successful. But at $9 mill per, he doesn't give us enough to keep him around. The Reds can sign 4 veteran bullpen arms for what Iglesias makes and be further ahead.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
The Reds tried to make Lorenzen and Iglesias starters and both could not pitch more than 3-4 innings in multiple starts without getting hurt. Some guys simply cannot be starting pitchers. Chapman was the same way. So do you keep them as a often injured, #4, #5 starter, or put them in the bullpen and try to squeeze as much out of them as possible? I think Igleisas career with the Reds, given the fact he was here for some lean seasons was pretty successful. But at $9 mill per, he doesn't give us enough to keep him around. The Reds can sign 4 veteran bullpen arms for what Iglesias makes and be further ahead.
Quantity is not better than quality.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
The Reds direction is very clear, they need to drop payroll, they are trying to see what Sonny Gray COULD get them. They are not going to dump him. If they get an offer they can't refuse, then you do it. Otherwise he's in the rotation. He's attractive due to the current structure of his contract.

The Reds are banking on pitching coach Derek Johnson being able to take mid range to unknown pitchers and turn them into quality pitchers. For 2022, you'll likely have Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo in the rotation.
There is no reason for them to need to drop payroll. We were told for nearly 5 seasons that they were building their "war chest" for when the window opened. It's open and now they cry poverty? Most estimates put the Reds losses at 18-20M last year. Are we to believe they only managed to squirrel away 4M a year while trying to lose?

If that's the case then ownership needs to sell the team to a competent business group.
 

14Red

Well-known member
There is no reason for them to need to drop payroll. We were told for nearly 5 seasons that they were building their "war chest" for when the window opened. It's open and now they cry poverty? Most estimates put the Reds losses at 18-20M last year. Are we to believe they only managed to squirrel away 4M a year while trying to lose?

If that's the case then ownership needs to sell the team to a competent business group.
In case you weren't aware, they missed about 70% of their regular season this year, there was no fans in the stands and overall revenues crumbled. And not knowing today what 2021 looks like, you're not going to go out and sign a bunch of guys.
The Reds are never going to have a "war chest". The great fans of the Reds only go to games when they win. Not like Cardinals fans who support the team no matter what.
The Reds are trying to build a culture where they are not going to sign guys to Votto like contracts in the future, they are going to draft, develop and play guys young until they hit that big contract. The Astros did this, the Rays are doing it. Now you have to hit some home runs with drafts, you can't have Robert Stephensons, and up and until now Nick Senzels that you draft and they muddle their way through the minors and don't make a splash. As we've seen in baseball, you don't need stars at every position. Good solid players who stay healthy, get on base, coupled with competent pitching and defense is the recipe for success.
I also feel the Reds brass are banking on some real bargains in March as spring training winds down. Most teams are like the Reds, cutting payroll and releasing their "not replaceable" players. I think we can get some pretty good bargains before the season starts and stretch the payroll dollar.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
In case you weren't aware, they missed about 70% of their regular season this year, there was no fans in the stands and overall revenues crumbled. And not knowing today what 2021 looks like, you're not going to go out and sign a bunch of guys.
The Reds are never going to have a "war chest". The great fans of the Reds only go to games when they win. Not like Cardinals fans who support the team no matter what.
The Reds are trying to build a culture where they are not going to sign guys to Votto like contracts in the future, they are going to draft, develop and play guys young until they hit that big contract. The Astros did this, the Rays are doing it. Now you have to hit some home runs with drafts, you can't have Robert Stephensons, and up and until now Nick Senzels that you draft and they muddle their way through the minors and don't make a splash. As we've seen in baseball, you don't need stars at every position. Good solid players who stay healthy, get on base, coupled with competent pitching and defense is the recipe for success.
I also feel the Reds brass are banking on some real bargains in March as spring training winds down. Most teams are like the Reds, cutting payroll and releasing their "not replaceable" players. I think we can get some pretty good bargains before the season starts and stretch the payroll dollar.
Payroll was prorated for games played.

Like I said, most estimates peg the Reds losses at 18-20M.

The rest of your post is ridiculous.
 

brianwr112

Well-known member
Payroll was prorated for games played.

Like I said, most estimates peg the Reds losses at 18-20M.

The rest of your post is ridiculous.
The numbers you're using are only considering tv, radio and attendance which would be more relevant in a normal year. They probably lost at least another $50M in concessions, sponsorship, tours/events and other revenue we don't typically look at.
 

14Red

Well-known member
I think alot of fans think pro sports teams just pull money off their money trees. It's such a goofy thought process. It's easy spending other people's money. And most owners are majority share owners of groups of millionaires. But they DON'T use their own money! This is play money for them, tinkering around. They aren't dipping into their own reserves to overpay athletes???
BTW, the LA Angels of Anaheim just pay, pay, pay players, they have arguably the best baseball player in the game for the last decade and they don't win. Winning baseball is not based on how much money you spend. It took the Dodgers 30 years of spending a lot of money before they finally won a world series this season.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
The Reds tried to make Lorenzen and Iglesias starters and both could not pitch more than 3-4 innings in multiple starts without getting hurt. Some guys simply cannot be starting pitchers. Chapman was the same way. So do you keep them as a often injured, #4, #5 starter, or put them in the bullpen and try to squeeze as much out of them as possible? I think Igleisas career with the Reds, given the fact he was here for some lean seasons was pretty successful. But at $9 mill per, he doesn't give us enough to keep him around. The Reds can sign 4 veteran bullpen arms for what Iglesias makes and be further ahead.
We have had this discussion.

When Iglesias was in the rotation, he was a skinny young kid fresh from Cuba who hurt himself overthrowing. After all these years, he is a physically mature athlete, who has benefited from world-class nutrition and workouts. Anyone with eyes can see the difference in his body. Keeping him out of the rotation because he got hurt way back then is dumb.

Lorenzen has worked himself into being the best athlete on the team, and oh by the way, he had a couple solid starts in the 2020 stretch run. Keeping him out of the rotation because he got hurt 3-4 years ago is dumb. And making your same tired arguments all these years later is also dumb.

But hey, welcome back to the thread!
 

14Red

Well-known member
We have had this discussion.

When Iglesias was in the rotation, he was a skinny young kid fresh from Cuba who hurt himself overthrowing. After all these years, he is a physically mature athlete, who has benefited from world-class nutrition and workouts. Anyone with eyes can see the difference in his body. Keeping him out of the rotation because he got hurt way back then is dumb.

Lorenzen has worked himself into being the best athlete on the team, and oh by the way, he had a couple solid starts in the 2020 stretch run. Keeping him out of the rotation because he got hurt 3-4 years ago is dumb. And making your same tired arguments all these years later is also dumb.

But hey, welcome back to the thread!
And we have the same conclusion...same as before.

You KNOW you have two guys who CAN be moderate to successful relief pitchers - in an era where bullpen arms are more important than anytime in the long history of baseball...

You have two guys who you've TRIED as starters, you've had enough starters the past two seasons they are MORE VALUABLE to you as bullpen guys, than trying to force them into being starters. Why force guys into being starters when they have a history of injuries?? It's really maddening.

Hence, they were bullpen guys.

Now, if we lost Bauer and if somehow Sonny Gray is dealt, you have an opportunity....and opportunity that Lorenzen CAN start. Derek Johnson said as much, he did not guarantee him a spot, just said he could compete for a spot, so we'll see how it goes.

Depending on our rotation, Lorenzen may be more valuable to us 3-4 times a week 1-2 innings at a time than once a week as a starter.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
And we have the same conclusion...same as before.

You KNOW you have two guys who CAN be moderate to successful relief pitchers - in an era where bullpen arms are more important than anytime in the long history of baseball...

You have two guys who you've TRIED as starters, you've had enough starters the past two seasons they are MORE VALUABLE to you as bullpen guys, than trying to force them into being starters. Why force guys into being starters when they have a history of injuries?? It's really maddening.

Hence, they were bullpen guys.

Now, if we lost Bauer and if somehow Sonny Gray is dealt, you have an opportunity....and opportunity that Lorenzen CAN start. Derek Johnson said as much, he did not guarantee him a spot, just said he could compete for a spot, so we'll see how it goes.

Depending on our rotation, Lorenzen may be more valuable to us 3-4 times a week 1-2 innings at a time than once a week as a starter.
Are bullpens more important now than ever? Yes.

Does the bullpen matter if your starters are bad and you usually trail by several runs heading into the 5th inning? No. Refer to the Reds a couple years ago.

What makes a good bullpen pitcher these days? High velocity / high spin rate guys who can go hard for 1 inning. Typically these are younger, low cost guys.

What makes a good starter? guys with 3-4 good pitches that can give you 5-7 innings and max 2-3 runs allowed most starts.

Which is more important, an effective starter or an effective middle relief guy? No brainer, the starter. Check the salaries.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Are bullpens more important now than ever? Yes.

Does the bullpen matter if your starters are bad and you usually trail by several runs heading into the 5th inning? No. Refer to the Reds a couple years ago.

What makes a good bullpen pitcher these days? High velocity / high spin rate guys who can go hard for 1 inning. Typically these are younger, low cost guys.

What makes a good starter? guys with 3-4 good pitches that can give you 5-7 innings and max 2-3 runs allowed most starts.

Which is more important, an effective starter or an effective middle relief guy? No brainer, the starter. Check the salaries.
You just proved my point. Iglesias and Lorenzen never developed even 3rd pitches, let alone 4. I contend that Iglesias is basically a one pitch pitcher now, his slider. He can't get his fastball by guys, and he struggles with locatingn it. Same with Lorenzen, same with Chapman years ago, and defintely the same with Amir Garrett today.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
You just proved my point. Iglesias and Lorenzen never developed even 3rd pitches, let alone 4. I contend that Iglesias is basically a one pitch pitcher now, his slider. He can't get his fastball by guys, and he struggles with locatingn it. Same with Lorenzen, same with Chapman years ago, and defintely the same with Amir Garrett today.
What universe are you living in?
 

14Red

Well-known member
What universe are you living in?
Same one you are. Do you see those guys alot differently from this? Chapman has two pitches, Iglesias has two pitches, Lorenzen has two pitches. Garrett has one pitch and can't spot a fastball.
 
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