The Official 2019 Cincinnati Reds Thread

Indiandad said:
Is a pitcher more valuable than a position player?
Alonso: 42 HR 101 RBI .261/.365/.587

Soroka: 10-3 2.42 ERA 1.090 WHIP
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Of course a pitcher COULD be more valuable, but not in this case, IMHO of course.
Why do I say that? The Braves have played 135 games. Siroka has pitched a total of 147 innings over 24 starts; and he hasn't made a positive impact during several of those precious 147 innings.
He simply hasn't affected his team's outcomes for chances at success like Alonso has.
 
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Monclova Steve said:
Of course a pitcher COULD be more valuable, but not in this case, IMHO of course.
Why do I say that? The Braves have played 135 games. Siroka has pitched a total of 147 innings over 24 starts; and he hasn't made a positive impact during several of those precious 147 innings.
He simply hasn't affected his team's outcomes for chances at success like Alonso has.
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Best case scenario what does a starting pitcher get, 32 or so starts? Back in the day when a pitcher routinely went 7+ innings there is more of an argument to be most valuable as he pitched in 32, and since he would go deep it helped the team the day before and after his start by not having to use the BP much in his starts.
Nowadays most pitchers aren't going nearly as long.
 
Reynolds (Pirates) is in a position to win the batting title .330/14/56 (brought up sometime in May). Alonso probably has it in the bag but if Reynolds is top 3 in BA he should be second.
 
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thavoice said:
Best case scenario what does a starting pitcher get, 32 or so starts? Back in the day when a pitcher routinely went 7+ innings there is more of an argument to be most valuable as he pitched in 32, and since he would go deep it helped the team the day before and after his start by not having to use the BP much in his starts.
Nowadays most pitchers aren't going nearly as long.
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Thanks, voice, for this wonderful explanation.
It is harder and harder to make the case for a starting pitcher to win either ROY or MLB, because they participate in fewer and fewer innings than their counterparts did when pitchers took the ball every 4th or 5th day and went -- as you have said -- deeper into the game.
 
Monclova Steve said:
Indiandad & e_p have it right on Scooter.
He would be a great addition next year -- but only at the right price while enabling him to prove that his poor performance was just due to his injury.
Perhaps the role that he was originally signed for by the Reds (a depth guy who could hit RH pitching and a veteran presence). A contract of $2M + incentives sounds about right.
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If Scooter is the Scooter we saw the last 2 years, he'd be my starting 2B.
 
thavoice said:
Best case scenario what does a starting pitcher get, 32 or so starts? Back in the day when a pitcher routinely went 7+ innings there is more of an argument to be most valuable as he pitched in 32, and since he would go deep it helped the team the day before and after his start by not having to use the BP much in his starts.
Nowadays most pitchers aren't going nearly as long.
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Soroka is averaging 6+ innings per start. In today's game that is "deep". That makes him even more valuable especially as a rookie.

Does anyone feel he is more deserving because his team is in 1st place?
 
Indiandad said:
Soroka is averaging 6+ innings per start. In today's game that is "deep". That makes him even more valuable especially as a rookie.

Does anyone feel he is more deserving because his team is in 1st place?
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That was my original point. For MVP they always seem to factor in how the team is doing. Braves in first place, Soroka has been an ace, so is he "most valuable rookie"? Maybe. But Alonso wins simply on stats.
 
Indiandad said:
Soroka is averaging 6+ innings per start. In today's game that is "deep". That makes him even more valuable especially as a rookie.

Does anyone feel he is more deserving because his team is in 1st place?
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Still not enough to win it this year
 
ERA and
WHIP is what I look at for pitchers effectiveness.
Wins are overrated to a point but should not be totally dismissed. Sure some pitchers get lucky, like Homer this year, or hosed but generally it's part of the puzzle .
eastside_purple said:
Yeah, another rookie hitting 42 bombs is too much to overcome. Soroka would need 18+ wins and <2.40 era to compete. And I know wins is a poor metric for pitchers, but it still gets attention.
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thavoice said:
ERA and
WHIP is what I look at for pitchers effectiveness.
Wins are overrated to a point but should not be totally dismissed. Sure some pitchers get lucky, like Homer this year, or hosed but generally it's part of the puzzle .
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And you aren’t a voter for ROY. Right. Again, my point was pitching wins still gets a lot of attention. If Soroka was in the 20ish win area with a sub 2.40 era, he’d be a close call with Alonso imo. That’s just reality.
 
Also, Soroka has a 5.2 WAR; Alonso is 4.3. I don’t think WAR is a well considered metric for the ROY voting crowd, but it shows Soroka is an extremely valuable player for a rookie.
 
Agreed that wins get lots of attention, but we have to evolve from that. In this era in which we consider a 6 inning start "going deep" in the game, the bullpen has much more impact on a starter's W/L record than in past years.

I agree with voice that ERA and WHIP are better metrics. However, just the fact that -- in a good start -- the starting pitcher only participates in at MOST 2/3 of the game.

It's hard for me to turn away from the guy who's in there every day creating opportunities for his team to win. I gotta go with you guys. Alonso is my choice.
 
eastside_purple said:
Also, Soroka has a 5.2 WAR; Alonso is 4.3. I don’t think WAR is a well considered metric for the ROY voting crowd, but it shows Soroka is an extremely valuable player for a rookie.
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Thanks, e_p, for blowing up my argument by finding each player's WAR :eek:.
Oh well, that's what comes from analyzing, then accepting someone else's argument as superior (right, 14Red?).
Nice job. You've changed my mind (sort of). :)
 
[As idQUOTE="eastside_purple, post: 7370318, member: 5466"]
And you aren’t a voter for ROY. Right. Again, my point was pitching wins still gets a lot of attention. If Soroka was in the 20ish win area with a sub 2.40 era, he’d be a close call with Alonso imo. That’s just reality.
[/QUOTE]
As if you are a voter for it......

Wins get less and less atrention see last year as a ten win starter won it.
20ish win area....yeah def as that is rare air these days but he isn't near hat mark yet
 
thavoice said:
Wins get less and less atrention see last year as a ten win starter won it.
20ish win area....yeah def as that is rare air these days but he isn't near hat mark yet
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Well, I definitely didn’t say I was a voter. I’m just noting it would take something like 20 pitching wins to overcome another rookie who may have 50 bombs for ROY.

Anyway, if you think WAR is a useful stat, Soroka has the clear advantage over Alonso. This just points to my point that the two are having equally great years, I just think Alonso playing in NY with maybe 50 hrs will be too sexy to overcome.
 
eastside_purple said:
Well, I definitely didn’t say I was a voter. I’m just noting it would take something like 20 pitching wins to overcome another rookie who may have 50 bombs for ROY.

Anyway, if you think WAR is a useful stat, Soroka has the clear advantage over Alonso. This just points to my point that the two are having equally great years, I just think Alonso playing in NY with maybe 50 hrs will be too sexy to overcome.
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Not a WAR guy at all, no way. Some years his numbers may warrant Roy but when a guy is approaching record numbers that is tough to bear
 
thavoice said:
Personally, for a pitcher to win the MVP, or Roy, he needs to be heads and shoukders above an every day playerrr.
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Yeah, don’t disagree writers and most fans would hold the same opinion, but logic would tell you a starter putting up Soroka’s numbers is as valuable or arguably moreso. Odd any knowledgeable fan would discount pitching in this era.
 
Monclova Steve said:
Thanks, e_p, for blowing up my argument by finding each player's WAR :eek:.
Oh well, that's what comes from analyzing, then accepting someone else's argument as superior (right, 14Red?).
Nice job. You've changed my mind (sort of). :)
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Not all WAR is equal...
WAR for each position on each team is different (depending on who's WAR you're using).
WAR stands for Wins Above Replacement so the guy backing up a position is taken into consideration.
 
eastside_purple said:
Yeah, don’t disagree writers and most fans would hold the same opinion, but logic would tell you a starter putting up Soroka’s numbers is as valuable or arguably moreso. Odd any knowledgeable fan would discount pitching in this era.
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of the 12 highest paid players in MLB, 6 are starting pitchers. Starting pitchers make up 20% of a roster.

Clearly ownership views starting pitching pretty high.
 
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